Micro Minnie FLX Xantrex/Go Power! Parameters

[SactoSteve]

What I think we’ve gleaned from Lithionics,…

Storage Mode Overview
The purpose of the storage mode is to minimize battery depletion, maintain health of the battery, and safety of the system.
There are essentially 2 Storage modes;
* Short Term Storage, Less than 90 days,
* Long Term Storage, greater that 3 months but not to exceed 6 months Storage.

Short Term Storage - up to 3 Months
Entry condition - Battery charged to 100%
OFF state initiated by pressing the Blue button for 3 seconds
AND also disconnecting the Battery (breaker switch down)

I don’t know of its better to turn off system between trips or leave it operating? We’ve been leaving system on.

With the battery disconnected, in sunlight the solar panels are still contributing some power to the trailer; the lights, the fridge and the red propane warning lights on the stove knobs glow red. Winnebago and Lithionics never got back to me when I asked if this was by design.
I don’t know if the GoPower charger is involved or if its a “sneak path” via the “solar on the side” connections.

Winter storage is a whole different ballgame.

-steve

[RovingMedics]

Originally Posted by Downytide

https://ca.ecoflow.com/products/delta-pro-portable-power-station?variant=40592650240154

It's more or less a giant battery bank, the larger ones (4kwh+) tend to have rv plug, so you can just plug it in and "dump" the electricity into the lithionics, they also charge pretty fast on AC, since our battery is about 4kwh, you essentially double the capacity.

Oh wow. I was wondering how that worked. Did you try it out already?

I hope that wasn't related to your other battery issue. Is it possible that the two are related?
(should this be a whole new thread? lol. I wonder..)

[electric]

Originally Posted by SactoSteve

I don’t know of its better to turn off system between trips or leave it operating? We’ve been leaving system on.

With the battery disconnected, in sunlight the solar panels are still contributing some power to the trailer; the lights, the fridge and the red propane warning lights on the stove knobs glow red. Winnebago and Lithionics never got back to me when I asked if this was by design.
I don’t know if the GoPower charger is involved or if its a “sneak path” via the “solar on the side” connections.

Winter storage is a whole different ballgame.

-steve

With lithium battery you have a balancing act between maximizing shelf life and having a fully charged battery ready for the next trip. Ideally you want the battery to be less than full for long term storage, but you want it full when going on the boondocking trip. This is why there are 2 storage modes, pick one depending on your plans for the next trip. An educated and disciplined person would undercharge the battery prior to storage, but will remember to charge it before the trip.

Solar is wired after the battery DC breaker to meet the UL requirement for complete battery disconnect for safety. Because of that solar is feeding voltage to 12V bus when battery is disconnected. Ideally there should be a separate solar dicsonnect switch to prevent ghost power feed to 12V loads, but it's not damaging to leave it on, just weird to see lights when battery is off.

Leave it on or off depends on your ability to ensure no loads are left on, otherwise you will return to an empty battery. For instance you forget to turn off Xantrex and it's idle load will drain the battery in one week.

[electric]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Just like with batteries - series wiring multiplies the voltage, parallel wiring multiplies the wattage.

With 4-190w panels if you series wire 2-pairs and then parallel wire the two pairs together you'll have about 40v and 380 watts of solar. This is approximately 10 amps. So, the GoPower controller would be perfectly fine.

4-190w panels wired in series will produce 80volts and 190watts. This will yield about 3 amps.

4-190w panels wired in parallel will produce 20volts and 760watts. This will yield 38 amps -- too much for a 30-amp solar controller.

NOTE: This is what I've been told, I'm no expert. So, always double check my figures.

Wattage is always the same, series multiplies voltage, parallel multiplies current or amperage.
4x190W panels always = 760W, regardless of parallel or series. Actual Watts will never be this high, except at Noon in July for a few minutes, depening on lattitude.
Series is better than parallel, up to controller's voltage limit, because all series panels work in tandem, even when some have less sunlight due to partial shade or different angles. Parallel panels work only as good as the best one, the rest are dragging feet, especially in partial shade or different angles. Parallel panels must have blocking diodes to prevent backfeed, good quality panels have those diodes integrated inside the connector on the back.
Specifically related to FLX owners - assuming you don't want to rewire the stock unit, you are stuck with matching 2x series panels at around 40V, othwerise you won't make any additional power, or even drag down roof power if external panels don't have diodes.
Ideally, if you have skills, you'd rewire external port to be in series with roof panels and make a bypass plug when not using external panels, but be careful not to exceed controller max voltage and all panels should be of the same wattage. When in series max power is limited by smallest panel, so all panels should be of the same rating.
Even better idea if you are already investing $$$ into more panels is to buy a separate solar controller, like a small Victron and wire external panels to their own controller, which in turn is wired to the battery, after the DC disconnect switch, same spot when GoPower is wired. Then 2 controllers and 2 sets of panels work independently, combining their power to charge the battery.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by electric

Wattage is always the same, series multiplies voltage, parallel multiplies current or amperage.
4x190W panels always = 760W, regardless of parallel or series.

I never meant the wattage of the solar PV panels changed with parallel wiring, just the output amperage expressed in watts.

[creativepart]

I just want to make everyone in this thread aware of a new resource for your FLX electrical system setup and operations questions.

A new member username "electric" has offered to help with Lithionics and some Xantrax questions. "Electric" is an electrical engineer for Lithionics and has graciously offered to provide NON-OFFICIAL help and guidance for Winnebago FLX owners with questions.

I'm going to direct him to this thread and let him say hello here to get things started.

Keep in mind, he's a volunteer, works a full-time job, has a life and isn't available 24/7/365. If you ask him a question, be polite, wait patiently for his response and show your gratitude.

Rudeness, impatience and lack of appreciation are a sure way of driving a volunteer with valuable knowledge away. So, let's not do that to this kind soul.

Thanks.

[RovingMedics]

Originally Posted by electric

Specifically related to FLX owners - assuming you don't want to rewire the stock unit, you are stuck with matching 2x series panels at around 40V, othwerise you won't make any additional power, or even drag down roof power if external panels don't have diodes.

I think some of the FLX owners are mostly curious about how to best utilize the Solar on the Side port.

My solution that I think worked was a Renege 200w panel, bypassed the charge controller, used a polarity reverser and plugged everything in. But I haven't been able to test it out a whole lot due to cloudy days.

Thank you!

[electric]

Originally Posted by creativepart

I'm going to direct him to this thread and let him say hello here to get things started.

Thanks, I've already contributed here with a couple of posts above..

[CampinInCO]

I am going to purchase a 2108TB on Monday It has been on the dealer lot for almost 1 year. I did not think to look the otherday to confirm the battery was in the trailer, but I bet it is.

The trailer likely took a few days well below zero in Dec('22)-Feb('23). Quite a few below freezing. I have seen the storage recommendations from Lithionics.

Is there anyway I/dealer can test the battery to confirm if it has/has not been damaged? Anything problematic that I should look at? The trailer is about 130 miles from home. Wish it were closer.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Marine359]

You can check the Lithionics spec, but most LFPs spec battery down to -20F for 30 days or more. If you’re concerned, ask dealer to bring battery to full charge using shore power and turn off the solar panels at their disconnect/breaker. Check and note voltage at 100% SOC. Shut down all dc circuits at the fuse panel to kill phantom loads. Disconnect inverter. Wait for 2 days and check voltage again. There should be zero battery viltage, as a good LFP holds 100% of its charge for a long time if there are no loads. If it passes storage test, I wouldn’t be concerned any more.

Oh wait, forgot we now have a Lithionics person in the forum. Probably should wait to hear from him.

[electric]

Originally Posted by CampinInCO

Is there anyway I/dealer can test the battery to confirm if it has/has not been damaged? Anything problematic that I should look at? The trailer is about 130 miles from home. Wish it were closer.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Ask the dealer to make sure the battery is in the ON position, solid blue LED light at the ON/OFF button, then connect to the battery with Lithionics mobile app, swipe left at the main screen to get to Battery Details screen and take a screenshot, or read out all parameters from that screen.
It looks like this.
Most important is to check all 4 cell voltages at the bottom. They should be very similar values and all should be above 3.00V.
Our batteries are very resilient, so it's not likely there are issues with it due to storage. If voltages are below 3.00V then it simply needs charging and then checking again after a full charge.

[CampinInCO]

@electric

Thank you very much.

[SactoSteve]

Most important is to check all 4 cell voltages at the bottom. They should be very similar values and all should be above 3.00V.
Our batteries are very resilient, so it's not likely there are issues with it due to storage. If voltages are below 3.00V then it simply needs charging and then checking again after a full charge.

Nice tid bit to know!
Thanks.
-steve

[SactoSteve]

In coordination with GoPower, a tech questioned why the battery temps shown on the GoPower app were quite different from those on the Lithionics app.
Turns out the GoPower probe was left dangling at the charger. GoPower sent me a replacement and mentioned better algorithm performance with the probe attached to the battery case. Note: for those who may be unfamiliar, this is a thermal monitor probe NOT an electrical connection to battery power.

But my question is about Xantrex charger. There was/is no thermal probe for the Xantrex. There is a connection on the Xantrex just no cable. Is this anything to be concerned about?

Thanks,
- steve

[electric]

Battery temp sensing by chargers was designed for lead acid batteries, where voltage must be compensated at different temperatures. This is not needed for lithium batteries, so no need for temp sensors from solar or from xantrex, the battery has it's own internal temp sensor, which is reported in the Lithionics app. The battery will protect itself from any over or under temp conditions. In fact, attaching ring terminals with integrated temp sensors presents its own risk, as stacking extra lugs can cause torque issues, loose power lugs, incorrect stacking order, etc. Incorrect battery terminals attachment is a whole separate subject, which causes most of battery related issues in the field.

[electric]

Originally Posted by RovingMedics

I think some of the FLX owners are mostly curious about how to best utilize the Solar on the Side port.

My solution that I think worked was a Renege 200w panel, bypassed the charge controller, used a polarity reverser and plugged everything in. But I haven't been able to test it out a whole lot due to cloudy days.

Thank you!

I'm reading conflicting information on this forum about the external solar port on the FLX model. There seems to be a consensus here that port is wired in parallel to existing roof panels, i.e. wired to the input of the stock GoPower solar controller.
This did not seem normal to me as an electrical engineer, usually solar ports are wired to the battery and assume that external panels will have their own solar controller, such that stock panels and external panels don't conflict due to mismatched voltages and different sun exposure.
I received verbal confirmation from Winnebago enginering confirming my suspicion, and I'm expecting to see a copy of OEM wiring diagram soon.
If I'm right, then you cannot connect solar panels directly to the FLX port, you must have an external SCC unit. Such kits are sold online by GoPower and many other suppliers, where SCC is included with the panels.

[creativepart]

@Electric, that will be good to clear up. We’ve been suggesting that FLX owners test the voltage at the external solar port. My memory is that members have reported seeing much more than battery voltage… ~40vdc. So, perhaps Winnebago is being inconsistent about their setup?

Certainly, in years past, pre-FLX, the external port was sometimes wired directly to solar charge controller and other times to the batteries. My 2017 motorhome has the port wired to the PV input of the charge controller.

[electric]

@creativepart, I also saw reports of seeing what is obviously a direct solar voltage, around 30v-40v range, and I can only think of 2 possibilities in case of FLX unit:
1. External port was miswired at the factory and needs to be rewired back to the battery circuit.
2. Solar breaker is open, which means solar controller output is an open circuit and external port is wired in before the same breaker, so it shows the same output voltage from the stock SCC. When SCC output is an open circuit the voltage will go up as it has no reference to the battery voltage. As soon as the breaker is closed the voltage instantly matches with battery voltage as expected.

[SactoSteve]

Electric-
There are a few posts basically culminating at http://https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/f267/micro-minnie-flx-xantrex-go-power-parameters-363804-9.html#post3936512 witch include some “findings” that may be useful observations concerning the possible routing of the SOS and Solar charger.
An important aspect maybe the presence of the 30 breaker in the wiring.

For your consideration.

And I do want to let you know your help here is greatly appreciated!

-steve

[RovingMedics]

Originally Posted by electric

I'm reading conflicting information on this forum about the external solar port on the FLX model. There seems to be a consensus here that port is wired in parallel to existing roof panels, i.e. wired to the input of the stock GoPower solar controller.
This did not seem normal to me as an electrical engineer, usually solar ports are wired to the battery and assume that external panels will have their own solar controller, such that stock panels and external panels don't conflict due to mismatched voltages and different sun exposure.
I received verbal confirmation from Winnebago enginering confirming my suspicion, and I'm expecting to see a copy of OEM wiring diagram soon.
If I'm right, then you cannot connect solar panels directly to the FLX port, you must have an external SCC unit. Such kits are sold online by GoPower and many other suppliers, where SCC is included with the panels.

I'm one of those folks, yes. I think I was the one showing ~40v with a multimeter at the external port.

If it's wired incorrectly, I may be able to rewire it soon. I'm working on getting a 2nd lithionics battery from winnebago (hopefully soon) and if I'm thinking right, I could wire the side port to that second battery. (correct?)

I'll be checking on the trailer this Tuesday morning and we have plenty of sun right now, so I could get some more readings. My 200w renogy panel (with its unused charge controller) is up there as well.
thank you again!