Micro Minnie FLX Xantrex/Go Power! Parameters

[SactoSteve]

Originally Posted by realtytip

From Lithonics. The button on Battery is also a breaker that shuts down when approx 10% left in battery.
At that time you can turn it Back on but need to be careful not to run battery all the way down. They said ir is like a reserve tank letting you know to be careful. Not good to totally deplete battery.

Can confirm I have experienced this..
-steve

[realtytip]

Fyi. From Lithonics. From their calculations expect 3-4 hrs minimum from battery only running AC and maximum 5-6. Better use it wisely boondocking and hope sun is shining bright. So much for marketing up to 5 days boondocking. Deceptive! Still waiting on Zantrex to answer phone and try to find out why a 2000 watt generator over loads trying just to charge the Lithionics battery.

[naturopath]

Well that is not 100% right. That would be the case if the compressor is on 100% of the 3-5 hours. I believe it uses 1200 watts while it is on. When the unit is on, you will hear the compressor cycle on and off as set temperature is reached. When it is off and you only hear the fan, that will use 200 watts if I recall. So no compressor uses only around 20% of the power of the compressor. If you set the AC temp to higher and get in a shady spot, you can use it for many hours. If your solar panels are charging at maybe 200 watts, that would offset the fan usage. I hope this makes sense

[SactoSteve]

Originally Posted by realtytip

Go power should be on agm.
Xantrex should be on Lithium setting. Lipro. Xantrex needs to be on 320amp hrs also. 1st setting change to 20 on zantrex.
These are from Lithonics.
Go power on Lithium is not ideal but close to same setting as agm but they recommend agm.

Your GoPower! I formation does not agree with the GoPower! rep I have been working with.
https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post3924166

-steve

[SactoSteve]

Mostly looking for thoughts from creativepart and Marine359, of course all welcome.

Background-
The big circuit breaker doesn’t do what I expected. It does not “cut” power to the loads. With the breaker “off” all 12v loads are operational.
Side note the led button appears to “just” depower the lithionics phantom loads (bluetooth)
Spent some time today trying to understand the wiring of the pass through components. This is my attempt to capture that and speculate on what it might mean.


Pass through electrical system layout. Photo 1
Battery very simple connections at terminals 4/0 cable. Pos runs to breaker top connection, Neg runs to junction connecting to inverter and a smaller ga (62mm) wire going “below decks”.

Lighter ga wires are part of BMS.


Battery/inverter connections photo 2
4/0 black (negative) cable between junction and inverter, and between junction and neg terminal of battery. Smaller ga black wire (62mm) between junction and “below deck” (unknown)

4/0 red (positive) cable between bottom side of breaker and inverter.

Also, 2 120v “romex”, 1 input to inverter/charger (presumably from shore power) and 1 separate output from inverter/charger (presumably to AC loads via circuit breaker panel).



DC breaker photo 3
Breaker top connection is 4/0 cable to positive battery terminal.

Breaker bottom connector connects via 4/0 cable to inverter/charger positive terminal.
Also connecting to bottom terminal are 2 smaller, but quite hefty, wires going “below deck”.

The Green wires are for BMS remote operation of the breaker.


Solar controller wiring is all “in the walls”. No photo

The solar charger output obviously connects to the battery because the apps indicate charging and SOC cycles. Presumably the solar charger cables are connecting from “below deck” although the wire gauge is much larger than that leaving the charger.

However, if the solar charger, and possibly the inverter/charger are connected at the lower terminal throwing the switch would/should disconnect the solar charger from the battery. Which I understand is detrimental to a solar charger (energy from panels with no battery connection)
And with the breaker thrown there remains 12v power to all 12v elements of the trailer.
The inverter/charger does not operate with the breaker thrown.
If one of the red “below deck” wires is from the solar charger and the other is to the loads. I would think the solar charger output should be connected at the top and the loads are correctly connected at the bottom.

Any thoughts appreciated!
-steve

[SactoSteve]

Night test (supports above mis-wiring hypothesis)
0 solar power
GoPower charger “Idle”
Pass through lite on
Throw breaker => light goes off!
Throw breaker loads are isolated from battery = no loads
During day, when breaker is thrown, loads fed directly from solar!

[creativepart]

Steve I don’t really know anything about FLX systems and wiring. So I’m not able to follow you at all in posts such as the one above with photos.

On specifics of your system I think you should work with tech support people from Lithionics and or Xantrex. They designed the system for Winnebago.

PS. By the way, it is not detrimental to a solar charge controller to disconnect it from the batteries. In fact, “(energy from panels with no battery connection)“ is not a problem for the panels or the charge controller. I’m not sure where you got the idea that it was.

[SactoSteve]

Don’t sell yourself short! You have been tremendously helpful in my quest to uncover the FLX implementation.
Your initial creation of a separate thread and suggestion to contact WTOW got things rolling. You and Marine have hands on knowledge which fills in gaps in understanding a system cobbled together from multiple vendors (basically Xantrex and Lithionics). Their documentation is helpful in understanding how their components fit into a system. Getting the basic configuration parameters was essential, but so is getting some insight into how their (GoPower) software dealt with those setting which are “extraneous” with the lithionics battery. It was clear in conversing with GoPower, that they had specific understanding and coordination with Lithionics in contributing to the FLX implementation. My coordination with them lead to the discovery that the GoPower charger expected the temperature probe would be physically attached to the battery, rather than dangling below the charger feet away from the battery enclosure. I believe I have chased down enough information from Lithionics, GoPower, and a cheap booklet on mobile solar design and implementation (which is where I read that solar chargers should not be connected to active solar arrays unless also connected to a battery system, which may be “old school” and over come by current technology?)
At any rate, based on my observation of the breaker behavior, I am at the point of questioning the build execution of the FLX system at the factory. Here’s where I was hoping you and Marine might help my thinking in evaluating my hypothisis. I wasn’t expecting knowledge of the FLX wiring, just brainstorming on the issue.

[SactoSteve]

The solar charger output obviously connects to the battery because the apps indicate charging and SOC cycles. Presumably the solar charger cables are connecting from “below deck” although the wire gauge is much larger than that leaving the charger.

Observations
However, if the solar charger, and possibly the inverter/charger are connected at the lower terminal throwing the switch would/should disconnect the solar charger from the battery. Which I understand is detrimental to a solar charger (energy from panels with no battery connection)
And with the breaker thrown there remains 12v power to all 12v elements of the trailer.
The inverter/charger does not operate with the breaker thrown.

Hypothesis
If one of the red “below deck” wires is from the solar charger and the other is to the loads. I would think the solar charger output should be connected at the top and the loads are correctly connected at the bottom.


Night test (supports above mis-wiring hypothesis)
0 solar power
GoPower charger “Idle”
Pass through lite on
Throw breaker => light goes off!
Throw breaker loads are isolated from battery = no loads
During day, when breaker is thrown, loads fed directly from solar!

[SactoSteve]

Originally Posted by creativepart

PS. By the way, it is not detrimental to a solar charge controller to disconnect it from the batteries. In fact, “(energy from panels with no battery connection)“ is not a problem for the panels or the charge controller. I’m not sure where you got the idea that it was.

Okay, I looked into this a bit more. Apparently this issue is only related to initial install where there could be damage to the controller if the battery is connected after the solar panels are connected, and then only if the battery was connected with polarity reversed.

so for my breaker "issue" this isn't a concern, but if the breaker is wired the way I think it is, when the breaker is "thrown" there would charge current would be isolated from the battery, but would continue to be applied to the 12v loads. Which I still think is wrong.

-steve

[creativepart]

Again, no info on the FLX... but perhaps this is relateable to your questions.

My solar controller output is always live and is directly connected to the batteries. But I have full chassis and house battery disconnects that turn off all power to the 12v loads on the RV. These don't turn off the batteries or anything they just turn off the power between the batteries and the 12v load center (your fuses etc).

I may be totally wrong but it sounds like you are trying to turn off the batteries - not activate a battery cutoff to the 12v load center.

[SactoSteve]

Thanks for this response. What you describe is/was the implementation and behavior we had on our T@B400, and what we expected from the FLX. But the behavior we see suggests the FLX is not wired as one would expect.
I’m not trying to “do” anything, just to understand why the FLX behaves this way. And if its a problem. At this point I believe it is a problem but WTOW is very slow responding and The dealer wants to wait until they receive the water recirculation elbow (a trivial annoyance issue) for me to bring the trailer in. I want to know as much as possible before they touch it.
I am at the point where I believe one of the wires connected to the lower terminal of the breaker is the connection to the Solar Charger and should be connected at the top (battery pos terminal side of the breaker) rather than the bottom. This would explain why the breaker seemingly has no effect on the 12v loads IN DAYLIGHT (they remain on powered directly from the Solar Charger) but at night they turn off because the breaker is isolating the battery from both the loads and the solar charger.
I am not gonna rip into the trailer, nor try to “ring out” the wiring, to fix what I believe is an assembly problem.

Your responses, I believe support my hypothesis.

Thanks, again,
-steve

[SactoSteve]

Sorry one more comment.
The “turn off the battery” is an awkward phrasing from Lithionics which is getting confused by “folks”. We were told the blue LED “turns off the battery” with no explanation of what that means. My interpretation of the Lithionics documentation is that it reduces the battery’s internal “parasitic” loads, but has no effect on the battery’s connection to the trailer loads. Lithionics recommends this action for “short term” storage. For “longterm” storage they recommend also throwing the breaker. Which makes sense, except in at least my case, trowing the breaker also disconnects the solar charger, from the battery! I think! Argh.

-steve

[SactoSteve]

Anyone with a FLX,

I am interested in knowing if you/we all are seeing this, or if it's a 'one-off' situation I have.

1. in daylight- with the pass through light on, flip the breaker OFF (our light stays on)
2. at night- with the pass through light on, flip the breaker OFF (our light goes off)

I think I know what's going on and have tried to convey it to WTOW.
Below is essentially, the latest coordination email I've just sent to WTOW.

Throwing the Circuit breaker, in daylight, does not remove 12v power from the trailer loads.
Throwing the Circuit breaker at night does remove power from the trailer loads.
* This leads me to believe the Solar Charger is connected in such a way that it is providing power to the 12v loads even with the breaker thrown. This does not seem desirable.
* I have visually traced the wiring in the pass through and have attempted to capture what I can observe in the following diagram. Dashed lines are my supposition of out of sight wiring.

I am at the point where I believe one of the 2 smaller gauge wires connected to the lower terminal of the breaker is the connection to the Solar Charger and should be connected at the top (battery pos terminal side of the breaker) rather than the bottom. This would explain why the breaker seemingly has no effect on the 12v loads IN DAYLIGHT (they remain on powered directly from the Solar Charger) but at night they turn off because the breaker is isolating the battery from both the loads and the solar charger. Additionally, if changed, it would allow the Solar Charger to continue to charge the battery when the loads are isolated.

thanks,
-Steve

[vap0rtranz]

Originally Posted by SactoSteve

Anyone with a FLX

I don't have a FLX but have been considering upgrading to one.
...

Originally Posted by SactoSteve

* This leads me to believe the Solar Charger is connected in such a way that it is providing power to the 12v loads even with the breaker thrown. This does not seem desirable.

This sorta sound like the typical setup for trickle charging. It's how my current rig works.


The panel keeps the charge controller operational during daylight so it can trickle charge the battery, and after dusk the charge controller will naturally "turn off". My charge controllers lights are on during daylight, and off at nighttime, because there is no charging at nighttime.



Could the charge controller be wired from battery to stay on during nighttime? Sure, but if this is just a charge controller, then there's be no purpose in doing that.



Now, sometimes a charge controller is dual purpose -- it also acts as a battery / load meter. If this GoPower is a dual purpose battery meter + charge controller, it could be wired to always be on unless a breaker is thrown.

Originally Posted by SactoSteve

* I have visually traced the wiring in the pass through and have attempted to capture what I can observe in the following diagram. Dashed lines are my supposition of out of sight wiring.

A multimeter is really the only way to trace what's going on.


I tried to follow this thread but I have to ask for some brevity in hopes of getting a simple answer: after the initial problem of dealer misconfiguration* (Xantrex and GoPower not being configured for Lithium), what exactly is the remaining issue?


* yup, "dealer misconfiguration". I talked to my local Winnebago dealer about ordering an FLX right after last year's announcement, but I walked away with the impression that major components of the FLX package were dealer installed. Dealer installed doesn't sit well with me. I once had a dealer's tech rewire my batteries from series to parallel. Hah! The kid who did the job was early 20s. I don't trust that just any dealer has the right techs to setup an offgrid solar rid like the FLX. The factory should have set this all up, at least for the 1st year run. My dealer said Winnebago was only going to allow 1,000 FLX '22 model units anyways.

[SactoSteve]

I tried to follow this thread but I have to ask for some brevity in hopes of getting a simple answer: after the initial problem of dealer misconfiguration* (Xantrex and GoPower not being configured for Lithium), what exactly is the remaining issue?

Honestly, very fair question/request. I have felt for some time this has grown more that I initially expected. All I can say is it comes from the journey of discovery on one thing after another with regards to unknowns and unexpected findings, but all focused connected to the FLX solar implementation.

I think I am near the end of the journey with the breaker piece. At least I hope (and expect) I am.

-steve

[SactoSteve]

This sorta sound like the typical setup for trickle charging. It's how my current rig works.

Your not wrong but my question/concern is the breaker behavior, the breaker should isolate the loads from the battery (only used during long term storage) to reduce/eliminate draw on the battery in storage. The solar charger should never be disconnected and should trickle charged the battery during storage.
My breaker disconnects the solar charger.

I realize I not made that concern clear.
-steve

[AwkDoctor]

I can confirm the daytime response when the switch is "off" -- light stays on. I will check the nighttime response this weekend.

[vap0rtranz]

Originally Posted by SactoSteve

The solar charger should never be disconnected and should trickle charged the battery during storage.
My breaker disconnects the solar charger.

Ok, now I get it.


Also, another owner corrected me that the FLX main components are NOT dealer installed, but of course the fixes now have to be done by dealer techs. Unless Winnebago is going to fly a tech out to ya, hah!


It sounds the solar+inverter+controller is getting ironed out by multiple owners now ... which is good.


How do you like the FLX otherwise? <-- Maybe a question that's better for a new thread.

[SactoSteve]

Despite the initial factory “misstep” configuring the GoPower solar charger, and the Xantrex inverter/charger, and the lack of information on the FLX solar implementation (big misstep by Winnebago IMHO) we love the 2108ds.
The Truma “gear” is awesome. The dinette slide out is spacious, almost too spacious for the two of us. Usual minor fit and finish issues. Huge shower is luxurious, off putting sitting on the couch starring at the “throne”.
The murphey folds up and down nicely. Don’t expect it to be flush with the wall as they promote, none of them are, apparently. Lights are way too bright, but a fairly easy replacement.
Yep, we love it.

The FLX electric system is VERY capable, installed to high standards, just lacking in documentation. And (starting to get to the bottom of this) the UL requirement for management of the Big ol’ battery requires the big ‘ol breaker to isolate the battery COMPLETELY. This makes the FLX implementation different from most “normal” RV solar implementations where the battery can be isolated from loads, but is always connected to Solar charger for “trickle” charging. <== my developing understanding subject to confirmation.

- Steve