Some ceiling lights not working

[Morich]

Sorry to have dropped the discussion and left you hanging. We are struggling with the results of a son and daughter in law who had covid way back in Jan 2020 and were not treated and now are fighting the battle of trying to sort out the damage it has done to both of them!
Bigger problems came up and left you on the short end of the stick, sorry!

Going back to my notes, I find that I had looked enough to think the problem was the ground wire is not making good contact, so I might suggest this as a way to go?

Some steps to explain how I got to this point may help if your assistant is into reading drawings, etc!!!
Drawings for electrical are here:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ram/Wiring.htm
From notes, I see that I chased the hot side of the light wiring as "A, JE as hot, NE as Ground!!, and PL. Looking at the list tells us the "TO" and "FROM" of each wire to help sort and test each for either battery or ground.

Looking at what other circuits use the same supply, I remember thinking it was likely to be the ground side missing but that should be tested if you have a meter on hand! Maybe this is all more clear to your son?

It sounds like he has tested and found what I was guessing at, so maybe time to give him the info on wire ID at each item so he can be sure he SHOULD have ground where expected and then the other end of that ground is shown on the drawings.


Sorting to your year, make and model here:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ire_141037.pdf

One big help is this chart of "codes" printed on the wiring as this picture shows:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf
Sheet 3 of this drawing at the lower left side shows the layoutof the ground bus bar but not location. They are often near the battery setup and will be bolted directly to the frame in those I have checked, so he may be able to spot is as a larger(?) copper bar with lots of wires attached and then those wires should each have codes on them to sort down to the exact wire labeled "NE" for the ground wire going to the lights which are out.

To spot the correct bus bar, the wire colors and gauges are in the list at left of the drawing as a couple green larger wires and a bunch of smaller white. They tell us what to expect but not WHERE to find it???
It is possible, he finds no ground at the light but good at the bus bar, so it CAN be a problem along the path that we need to chase but I'm betting on corrosion at the bus connection as a first thought??

But it is like the doctors and my son? There is a whole lot of guessing going on, so let me know if it works or not?

[Esiordia]

Richard...

[Esiordia]

Richard...my son knows it the neutral 1. 2 and 3 wires but we can't find the 9 point connector we looked behind the monitor panel can't find it..we are looking for

[Esiordia]

i am trying to upload a photo to show you what i am looking for bear with me while i do this...we know the problem is the N 1 2 &3 but we cant find the 9 pin connector ..thought it was behind monitor panel..we looked could not find the wires N 1 2 or 3.....

[Esiordia]

here is the Diagram and what we cant find

[Esiordia]

BTW I hope all is well with your Family prayers coming your way

[Esiordia]

My son is an Electrician he know his stuff.. but he cannot find where the end of the neutral is for the 3 ceiling lights... he read the diagram and they are suppose to lead to a 9 point cap that should be behind the monitor panel we looked but they are not there... ..... he is looking for wires N1 N2 & N3......he has tested all ballasts in the florescent lights all good , he checked the switch's all good... he got all the lights to work by bypassing the neutral in each light and going to the battery.. they all worked... he even tried to pop the fuse by touching positive with negative in the light and nothing...conclusion the neutral wire that feeds to all 3 of those ceiling lights is bad ....where.. we don't know because we cant find the 9 point cap that it goes to.... Does anyone know where to find it maybe a loose connection at that end???

[Morich]

Yes, it looks like he is on the right path!! Perhaps it is a different type drawing than he is used to using and first time is always the hardest!
I suspect it is confusing him by not seeing this type before??
There is likely to be a set of wires soldered/connected to the back of the monitor and maybe as much as a foot long that go down inside the wall behind the monitor to the plug, so it may need to have that wire set pulled up to find that plug? You may find the group of wires but they are different colors than the drawing shows? That may be cause you are looking at the wires and plug that connect to the plug shown on the drawing and they may change colors at that plug?

To help sort the drawings if it is a problem, it should be like this. They put the drawings out like they were laid side by side so they can put the info on in small parts to fit the screen. Then when there is too much for one sheet, they number them like sheet 1 frame one as being on the right hand side and sheet 1 frame two 2 would be laid on the left side of S1F1!
But on each line you trace, when it gets to a plug, there should be a note telling WHERE that plug is found.
You are right to expect a plug behind the monitor as shown on sheet four as your picture, but the part that is not shown is that the monitor has a set of wires and that is what you may be seeing, rather than the part shown on the drawing which is down in the wall, perhaps?

I think the plugs are there but may have to pull and search for them when hidden!
So my plan is to go to the ones which are easier to find and get to, if there are any, and check them before trying to find the hard ones!

If it were a house, maybe it is like he found the dryer not working and if missing pulling the dryer out to find where the cord has been plugged in the wall, so may easier to go to the breaker or bus bar as easier to get to than pulling the dryer out?
Not really the same but maybe that idea? I might guess the bus bar would be near the batteries on the frame and some are easy to find mounted on the big metal frame but kind of hidden behind the batteries?

Maybe checking this end is easier but I do not know, just an idea?
This drawing for US built:
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ire_141040.pdf

[Morich]

Maybe some more info that might help?
This drawing shows location of ground buss bar and also the wiring at the switches--if he needs to get to those.
The RV wiring is different than house as it doesn't use romex, so they don't always run the hot and neutral in the same cable and always to each switch like we find in house wiring, so it looks really weird at first to not be able to find the neutral at the switch but often just the hot comes in and through the switch and the neutral may go some other direction!
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ire_141039.pdf

I "think" this info is of the Rv from the to with the front being left but check that, also the switches are what I think is right for your lights but guessing if that doesn't look right to you ---go with what you see, not my guess!!!!

[Esiordia]

Everything you said we've already done we know The Switche's work we've tested them we know the ballast works we check them we know that the hot wire work we had all the lights working by bypassing the neutral wire in each of the lights and putting it to the neutral in a different area or on the battery The only thing we haven't done is look for the NE on the wire behind the monitor panel because according to the drawings that wire supposed to be white ...because in each of the lights the neutral wire is white ....my son is very familiar that the wiring in the RV is not like the wiring in a house However he still believes that if you see a white wire that's neutral it should be white at the end and if you're telling me that that wire might not be white .....that's what we have to check so we'll check all the wires behind the monitor panel which were yellow for the letters NE It's hard to believe a company like Winnebago would do that... Thank you for all your help I will keep you posted . I think we're also going to give Winnebago a call and tell them everything we did. Again Richard thank you so much

[Morich]

I may not be making clear what I think may be true.
Do check as I have not looked behind a monitor in a long time but what I think may be is that the monitor panel is made by somebody other than Winnebago and it comes to them with a set of wires attached iwth a ploug on the wires maybe a foot or so long. That plug is then plugged to the plug and wires shown on the drawing and shoved back down into the wall!
So the colors on the drawing may be right on what gets to the plug but may change on the wires the other builder put on the monitor???

I have seen this on the furnace thermostat and found that if I pull on the wires, I get the plug or connections to come up out of the wall. I think the problem comes up when an item like the frig, furnace, thermostat or monitor panel is made by a company that just makes that item and sells it to lots of different Rv builders, so there is no common color as different builders use different colors.
To make it harder, we don't get real drawings for each wire on things like the monitor, stove, furnace and such but just the info Winnebago gives us on the part of the wiring they build and add. I think it might be true that the wire color changes when you look at the plug built by Winnebago but different on the other side of the plug built by the monitor folks.
Kind of like a car built by Ford may have different wire colors if we add a radio made by JVC?
We think of the RV as built by Winnebago but they actually put together a bunch of parts that are built by other folks and then finished as one type of RV or another!

Try tugging on the monitor wires and see if a plug may pull up out of the wall?

[Esiordia]

We will try and do that again....
we even took off vent screen on the bottom of the wall that the monitor panel is on and we really did not see the 9 pin connector..but we will give it another try...we really want to call winnebago to make sure we are in the right place... the only one we see had all yellow wires ..we still need to check the letters of the wires..we are looking for NE. Thanks for all your help this is all so new to us. The place we have to take it to if we cannot figure this out. .is horrible with scheduling there always busy ...I can also add they are very expensive.....

[Morich]

Yes, it sounds like it should be there.
Keep in mind that there is a set of wires made into a "harness" which the workers put into place as the RV is built and then as various parts are completed, like adding the monitor, things are plugged into that harness.
Still just guessing but if this were a house, I might say you have found a lamp and the wire going to the lamp but not found where that lamp is plugged into the wall?

Sorry if I make it sound too simple when I know it is not but that is what I "feel" is right.
But that is why I try not to take it to a shop which is very expensive and also the guy that is working on things may be just as confused as us!!!
But also I know that my guesses are often very wrong!

[Esiordia]

We have not had a chance to look again behind monitor panel…but we will..we spent 3 hours trouble shooting for the cause of the lights not workiing on Saturday….we narrowed it down to that neutral wire…now we have to find that
taking it in to a shop …yes the guy working on it could be clueless and the rate is 135. An hour … if we have to take it in we can at least give them all the info…
Your explanations do make the process more understandable thank you for that
I am so glad I found this site…I am getting better at using it…but I still am very slow

[Esiordia]

The other thing…it scares me when I see the inside of things like what’s behind the monitor panel…I get freaked out that something may come disconnected or break…touching all those wires and pulling on them..when my son was here and did that I cringed he just took all kinds of covers off…wires were everywhere bunched up under drawers behind fuse panel and very very congested behind that monitor panel… my son is comfortable and used to seeing that type of stuff …he is not here now and for me to take that monitor panel off again is going to freak me out….

[Esiordia]

Just N update...still no ceiling lights...cannot find neutral wire for NE 1 NE 2 NE 3.......did all the trouble shooting testing on switch,bulbs, ballast, and batteries...we called winnebago they said that the wires should be behind the monitor panel. If they are there its like finding a needle in a hay stack. We are probably going to take it to the shop at happy days Campland and pay big bucks..or maybe I can just "Let it be" as the Beatles say. I can live without those darn 3 lights .. there are so many others in this RV...
I wanted to thank everyone for trying to help ..you guys are awesome....

[Esiordia]

This is our haystack ..lol

[bigb]

I am seeing reference to a neutral but also to batteries so I am going to assume these are 12 volt lights, not 120 volt lights . If so, and you are missing the ground side of the 12 volts you can bring in another wire from any convenient ground and tie it in at any of the non working lights and they should come back on. Can you fish a wire from ground to one of the lights?

[Morich]

Okay , maybe the pictures help as you seem to be getting close?

In your third picture there seems to be a plug which might match what the drawing shows except for wire colors which look like all yellow from here when three were shown as white on the drawing info, so maybe they DID NOT use the colors shown???

But worth checking as a 9 pin connector is what you are looking for behind the monitor panel. I can't tell from here for sure but I think it worth checking that plug, even with colors not matching what I thought. Lots of guessing when doing it from pictures and drawings and not able to have hands on!!

So a check goes like this. Finding the nine pin connector and ignore a 15 pin, bigger connector! Then there are small plastic clips on each side of the connector to release if you want to take it apart but I would not do that until needed as the clips tend to break, etc. and testing can be done without taking apart if we work at it.

Use the plastic clips to get the plug turned the right way to find which is pin two! These are made with flat spots on some pins so they can't be connected the wrong way and that lets us spot which pin is which if we can't see numbers on them but I would start with the idea that pins 2 and 8 are just above the plastic clips and then look at those wires to see if one has the NE marking that you want.

If you find a wire marked NE, test that wire for ground as it comes from the ground bus bar to one side of that plug. Make sure it is on that pin and also that it gets across that connection to the wire going out the other plug!

One way to do that is to use something thin like a pin, thin wire or paper clip to reach down into the open around the wire where you can touch the metal of the connection without taking it apart!

If you find wire NE and it has ground on one side of the plug but not the other, that is your problem as it may just br corroded and need some cleaning or wiggled to clear the stuff.
But if you find NE and it has no ground on either side of the plug, look back toward the ground bus bar near the batteries as I mentioned earlier. That bus bar hangs out in the air under the RV and takes lots of water and dirt and does get corroded pretty easy, so cleaning all the wires on it may be needed and possibly easier, just as a thing to check.

Sometimes it is easier to just clean 10-20 wires to make sure than it is to hunt for one specific wire like at the monitor panel??

Good luck on the bug hunt!

[Morich]

Originally Posted by bigb

I am seeing reference to a neutral but also to batteries so I am going to assume these are 12 volt lights, not 120 volt lights . If so, and you are missing the ground side of the 12 volts you can bring in another wire from any convenient ground and tie it in at any of the non working lights and they should come back on. Can you fish a wire from ground to one of the lights?

Yes, I think they proved that part on post 27 if I am reading what they are doing??