Lithium LiFePO4 Upgrade - 2020/21 Navion or View

[Elkman]

Each Lithionics battery shows a 41 amp charge input with the Onan running and the solar panels in operation. With the Xantrex charger only able to supply 80 amps in total then the battereries are each only receiving 1 amp from the solar panels when they should each be getting more than 3 amps from the Zamp 100W panels (I do no't expect full output from the panels during January at 36 degrees of latitude.

The Lithionics batteries can accept up to 100 amps charging at temperatures of 77F degrees so they should be able to have charging from the Onan and the Zamp solar but they are not. With none of the wiring coming into the battery compartment it is a bit of a challenge to troubleshoot. I am used to having 4 battery connections plus a connection from the solar charge controller and a battery temp lead but in the Navion there are 10 connnections even without a battery temp lead.

I am also observing a far greater amount of discharge from one of the two batteries so something is wrong and so this needs troubleshooting as well and by someone more knowledgeable about RV electrics than myself. Fortunately I made an appointment with a local RV tech when I got home with my new Navion. So now some two months later I will be taking the Navion to the shop this coming week.

[crah]

Originally Posted by Elkman

Each Lithionics battery shows a 41 amp charge input with the Onan running and the solar panels in operation. With the Xantrex charger only able to supply 80 amps in total then the battereries are each only receiving 1 amp from the solar panels when they should each be getting more than 3 amps from the Zamp 100W panels (I do no't expect full output from the panels during January at 36 degrees of latitude.

The Lithionics batteries can accept up to 100 amps charging at temperatures of 77F degrees so they should be able to have charging from the Onan and the Zamp solar but they are not. With none of the wiring coming into the battery compartment it is a bit of a challenge to troubleshoot. I am used to having 4 battery connections plus a connection from the solar charge controller and a battery temp lead but in the Navion there are 10 connnections even without a battery temp lead.

I am also observing a far greater amount of discharge from one of the two batteries so something is wrong and so this needs troubleshooting as well and by someone more knowledgeable about RV electrics than myself. Fortunately I made an appointment with a local RV tech when I got home with my new Navion. So now some two months later I will be taking the Navion to the shop this coming week.

Ymso your inverter/charger is functioning correctly. This is my observation in Malibu Beach right now. I have 410 watts of solar. I cut and repositioned the factory 200 watts of panels that were so poorly wired as well so you have to factor that. At noon I'm showing 12.2 amps at the zamp controller. Each battery is showing 5 amps going in (this is with everything shut off at each device). If I shut the house disconnect switch by the door, then both batteries show 6amps of input from solar. Not sure where the other 2 amps are going but the awning has bluetooth draw, the carbon monoxide detector, I have added a sealevel tank gauge that has blue tooth, and I also changed the thermostat to a Bluetooth t stay as well so I have a few items that will draw phantom power.

Not sure what your zamp controller shows for output. The solar wire from the zamp controller routes to under thr passenger seat fuse and then to the battery compartment. Its the black odd looking cable in the battery tray that is solar.

For your battery, I had a similar situation of one battery charging more than the other battery when I had the xantrex charger set at custom charge mode. I picked custom charge mode either though the xantrex has a lithium option. The literature for the Lithionics said the float charge should be 13.4 so I used custom float to 13.4 setting. The factory lithium setting on the xantrex float charge is 13.6.

I ended up changing it to factory lithium setting on the xantrex and the battery different voltage corrected itself. I have no idea why that would make a difference but I've tested it twice with the same results. Your problem may or may not be the same.

[Elkman]

I have had one battery drawn down by 40% and the other by 3% and thought I might have a bad battery. Turned out that the Winnebago people wired the batteries incorrectly and so I have a local RV shop fixing the problem.

I sent photos of the battery wiring as done by Winnebago to J.R. at offthegridrvs.com where I had purchased two Lithionics batteries for the Navion and I got this response from him:

"That's your issue, the manufactures do it all the time. That is a tight area but doable. Your positives and negatives are connected to different batteries. So one will draw more than the other. Your fridge/inverter is basically pulling from one battery, and your 12v loads are on the other battery. All the positives should be on one battery, and all the negatives should be on the other battery. Then you have two parallel cables between the two."
J.R. OffTheGridRVs LLC Parker, AZ 85344

[crah]

Originally Posted by Elkman

I have had one battery drawn down by 40% and the other by 3% and thought I might have a bad battery. Turned out that the Winnebago people wired the batteries incorrectly and so I have a local RV shop fixing the problem.

I sent photos of the battery wiring as done by Winnebago to J.R. at offthegridrvs.com where I had purchased two Lithionics batteries for the Navion and I got this response from him:

"That's your issue, the manufactures do it all the time. That is a tight area but doable. Your positives and negatives are connected to different batteries. So one will draw more than the other. Your fridge/inverter is basically pulling from one battery, and your 12v loads are on the other battery. All the positives should be on one battery, and all the negatives should be on the other battery. Then you have two parallel cables between the two."
J.R. OffTheGridRVs LLC Parker, AZ 85344

Mine was wired correctly from the factory, but winnebago installed a wrong size fuse (different than their wiring diagram) shows. I lost all 12 volt power to my RV on 2 seperate trips. The first time it happened I traced to a single main fuse in the battery box and replaced it with like for like. When it happened the 2nd time I dug around more and found that one of the main fuses was a 100amp fuse but their wiring diagram showed it should be a 125. Since I upped the size to 125 its been all good.

I don't see how 1 battery could be pulled down by 40% in a parallel battery situation though. In an ideal install two parallel batteries should have loads installed on opposite batteries-positive cables to positive of 1st battery, and negative cables to negative of the 2nd battery and parallel cables in between.

But even if you put all the positive and negative cables to 1 battery and parallel cables to the 2nd battery, that is not the correct way, I have a hard time believing 1 battery would be drawn down by 40% and the other battery only by 3 %. It should still be very similar. Again not ideal but not much difference.

I sure hope that is the problem for you though so you can get your battery woes out of the way.

[rprochnow]

I'm seeing about 4% difference between the two batteries when they are being discharged.

Please confirm the recommended wiring is to have both positives on one battery and both negatives on the other.

I'll check our batteries, and if that isn't how they're hooked up, will get that changed by Lichtsinn when they do our annual maintenance (since they did the lithium upgrade).

[crah]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

I'm seeing about 4% difference between the two batteries when they are being discharged.

Please confirm the recommended wiring is to have both positives on one battery and both negatives on the other.

I'll check our batteries, and if that isn't how they're hooked up, will get that changed by Lichtsinn when they do our annual maintenance (since they did the lithium upgrade).

Can you take a picture of your battery tray?

[rprochnow]

[crah]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

Attachment 176899

Yours doesn't seem to be wired correctly. The two large wires on the right side of the picture look like the inverter wires and they are on the same battery. Also where is the fuse for that inverter wire? My positive goes to a large fuse first, then branches to the positive of 1 battery. The negative goes to the other battery. I don't see your inverter wires fused at all.

Here is a picture of mine. My batteries are placed in reverse of yours. They were factory/not dealer installed. It's has a lot of wires in there but I've traced them all and it makes sense. I have 3 fuses. I only see 1 fuse in your battery box. If I recall your batteries were dealer installed? My voltage on both batteries are 100% identical.

[rprochnow]

Ran the batteries down to 66-70% charge overnight and then drove 5 hours - and the batteries lost a little charge.

Skies were cloudy/raining - so not surprising the solar panels didn't provide much (if any charge).

In addition to the batteries not being at the same charge level - also looks like the batteries aren't being charged from the engine.

Will add this to the list for Lichtsinn to check in April.

[crah]

Actually I see that your inverter red wire goes to a fuse but it is not hooked up correctly. Based on your picture, in my opinion your inverter is not fused at all either though it goes to 1 side of the fuse. On the same side of the fuse there is a thinner red jumper wired that goes back to the battery positive. So this is no different than putting the inverter directly on the battery terminal itself.

I see a red wire on the other side of the fuse. That is likely your house wire. That is fused but I don't think it's the propper size fuse.

If I recall from looking at the 2021 wiring diagram, there should be 3 fuses in that battery box just like my picture. Seems someone modified that quite a bit.

[rprochnow]

Lichtsinn delayed the lithium battery upgrade last summer, waiting for the Winnebago parts for the lithium upgrade.

We're scheduled for annual maintenance/warranty work in April - and have added this to our list.

Since they installed the lithium batteries - will have them check this out.

The batteries do charge off shore power (30A each) and generator (40A each) - so even if they aren't wired properly, we've been able to operate.

Thanks...

[crah]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

Lichtsinn delayed the lithium battery upgrade last summer, waiting for the Winnebago parts for the lithium upgrade.

We're scheduled for annual maintenance/warranty work in April - and have added this to our list.

Since they installed the lithium batteries - will have them check this out.

The batteries do charge off shore power (30A each) and generator (40A each) - so even if they aren't wired properly, we've been able to operate.

Thanks...

In your jumble of wires, you are not protected properly. They are using the same fuse for the inverter, house power, and chassis charging. They should all be independently fused. I don't see your chassis wire on any of your batteries. I also don't see your solar wire. It's hard to diagnose everything from the pictures but I can see it's definitely not correct. Obviously there can be a fire hazard without proper fusing. If you have questions before April let me know. Winnebago has a wiring diagram on their website.

[rprochnow]

I've compared the wiring in our battery box with the 2021 View 24D wiring - and it doesn't match - and have sent the picture and wiring diagram to Lichtsinn for review.

Charging through the inverter appears to be working - doesn't appear to be charging from engine or getting much (if any) charging from solar - which could be caused by incorrect wiring.

[rprochnow]

Winnebago's wiring diagram is as difficult to trace the cabling as is the picture I took of our battery box.

Our box appears to have one fuse. The diagram shows two fuses - with the right fuse for the factory leveling system. Since we had an HWH system installed after factory, that probably explains why we don't have the second fuse.

Another explanation for any differences between photo and diagram is the orientation of the batteries. The diagram appears to have the - (black) post on the left of the batteries. Our batteries are installed with the + (red) post on the left. So that means the wiring is reversed on the batteries in the picture vs. the diagram.

In the diagram, some of the wiring isn't clear - which also doesn't help.

Because of the lack of the leveling system fuse, different orientation of the batteries, and the inexact positioning of the wires in the diagram, it's going to be difficult to verify our battery box is wired correctly - though with the wires I was able to match between the picture and diagram - it does appear to be correct.

Also need to trace how the solar panel charging is connected to the system, since it isn't in the battery box - and I didn't think it goes through the inverter.

[crah]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

Winnebago's wiring diagram is as difficult to trace the cabling as is the picture I took of our battery box.

Our box appears to have one fuse. The diagram shows two fuses - with the right fuse for the factory leveling system. Since we had an HWH system installed after factory, that probably explains why we don't have the second fuse.

Another explanation for any differences between photo and diagram is the orientation of the batteries. The diagram appears to have the - (black) post on the left of the batteries. Our batteries are installed with the + (red) post on the left. So that means the wiring is reversed on the batteries in the picture vs. the diagram.

In the diagram, some of the wiring isn't clear - which also doesn't help.

Because of the lack of the leveling system fuse, different orientation of the batteries, and the inexact positioning of the wires in the diagram, it's going to be difficult to verify our battery box is wired correctly - though with the wires I was able to match between the picture and diagram - it does appear to be correct.

Also need to trace how the solar panel charging is connected to the system, since it isn't in the battery box - and I didn't think it goes through the inverter.

I know the wiring looks very confusing at first but it's not that difficult once you review it in detail (something an owner shouldn't have to do) but it is nice to know you coach well too.

The diagram for the 2021 cleary shows 3 fuses. 2 of them state (mega fuse), and 1 just says fuse holder. The one that just says fuse holder is your inverter fuse. That is the only one that is remaining in your picture. The other two are not in there.

You mentioned your inverter/charger works. I have no doubt on that as your wiring shows it will work. It is just not fuse protected properly.

I doubt your HWH has anything to do with this. It probably has it's own fuse and wouldn't be part of this battery box.

Hard to diagnose all the issues from 1 picture, but it's clear it's not wired up correctly.

[misteracng]

I have attached some pics of my battery box, it has the standard AGM batteries. I was comparing to the winnebago wiring diagram and I labeled what I think each wire is with my very poor painting skills. It looks similar to what crah posted. I do have factory equalizer leveling jacks and that is listed in the wiring diagram. Do I have this labeled correctly?

Also in the second picture what is the small bundle of wires not connected? I see in antoher post it seems to be attached to a xantrex device?

Also I dont see any wiring on the diagram for the zamp solar controller to the battery box.

[crah]

Originally Posted by misteracng

I have attached some pics of my battery box, it has the standard AGM batteries. I was comparing to the winnebago wiring diagram and I labeled what I think each wire is with my very poor painting skills. It looks similar to what crah posted. I do have factory equalizer leveling jacks and that is listed in the wiring diagram. Do I have this labeled correctly?

Also in the second picture what is the small bundle of wires not connected? I see in antoher post it seems to be attached to a xantrex device?

Also I dont see any wiring on the diagram for the zamp solar controller to the battery box.

If you trace the wires you show as levelers (oddball black shielded cables that look different than the other cables), they go back under the passenger seat. The positive connects to the re-settable fuse on the side of the passenger seat that is labeled solar. That is the solar cable for sure as I've disconnected that numerous times and it matches with the solar fuse. Not sure why it doesn't show on the wiring diagram. And I also now see the wiring diagram that shows levelers going in the box. I have not located that cable nor can tell if it even goes in there. For your small bundle of wires, yes it goes to a xantex combiner selenoid. Not sure how it functions exactly and seems like it's possibly only when there are factory lithiums? The charge mate pro has lithium setting so not sure why the xantex is added.

[misteracng]

Originally Posted by crah

If you trace the wires you show as levelers (oddball black shielded cables that look different than the other cables), they go back under the passenger seat. The positive connects to the re-settable fuse on the side of the passenger seat that is labeled solar. That is the solar cable for sure as I've disconnected that numerous times and it matches with the solar fuse. Not sure why it doesn't show on the wiring diagram. And I also now see the wiring diagram that shows levelers going in the box. I have not located that cable nor can tell if it even goes in there. For your small bundle of wires, yes it goes to a xantex combiner selenoid. Not sure how it functions exactly and seems like it's possibly only when there are factory lithiums? The charge mate pro has lithium setting so not sure why the xantex is added.

I just looked at the wiring diagram again. Thanks for the clarification. So what I labeled as leveler fuse and wires is actually the solar system wiring, makes sense and also strange as solar wiring is not located in the wiring diagram. I cannot find any other wires for the levelers eaither. I just saw the solenoid for the factory lithium package as well on the wiring diagram. I agree with you, there doesn't seem to be a point in having this solenoid, although it appears you have it as a factory lithium install. The Chargemate 40 that is under the passenger seat, clearly states that it limits to 40amps and is compatible with lithium so no need for a solenoid.
Do you have a solenoid and also have a chargemate 40? This would seem redundant.
As a side note, I did look on the roof and see that the solar panels are not the flexible sunpower units anymore. They are hard units elevated on mounts from Zamp. so that seems like a good change.
Winnebago is still using wet batteries which is disappointing, would have been nice to at least get AGM as standard.

[crah]

Originally Posted by misteracng

I just looked at the wiring diagram again. Thanks for the clarification. So what I labeled as leveler fuse and wires is actually the solar system wiring, makes sense and also strange as solar wiring is not located in the wiring diagram. I cannot find any other wires for the levelers eaither. I just saw the solenoid for the factory lithium package as well on the wiring diagram. I agree with you, there doesn't seem to be a point in having this solenoid, although it appears you have it as a factory lithium install. The Chargemate 40 that is under the passenger seat, clearly states that it limits to 40amps and is compatible with lithium so no need for a solenoid.
Do you have a solenoid and also have a chargemate 40? This would seem redundant.
As a side note, I did look on the roof and see that the solar panels are not the flexible sunpower units anymore. They are hard units elevated on mounts from Zamp. so that seems like a good change.
Winnebago is still using wet batteries which is disappointing, would have been nice to at least get AGM as standard.

yes I have both the charge mate pro and the xantrex combiner. My lithium was Winnebago factory installed. I agree you should only need one of them. I do notice that my chassis charge limits to about 28 amp. I have never seen close to 40. I think I've seen others post the same thing. I've been working on bigger problems with the coach so i never around to finding the issues.

Also for the levelers, it doesn't make sense to go to the large fuses in the battery compartment. I have a 100amp and 125 amp fuse in there, and a 300 amp for the inverter. All those fuses would be way too big for the levelers. I'm thinking the levelers probably have their own inline fuse that are much smaller.

[misteracng]

Originally Posted by crah

yes I have both the charge mate pro and the xantrex combiner. My lithium was Winnebago factory installed. I agree you should only need one of them. I do notice that my chassis charge limits to about 28 amp. I have never seen close to 40. I think I've seen others post the same thing. I've been working on bigger problems with the coach so i never around to finding the issues.

Also for the levelers, it doesn't make sense to go to the large fuses in the battery compartment. I have a 100amp and 125 amp fuse in there, and a 300 amp for the inverter. All those fuses would be way too big for the levelers. I'm thinking the levelers probably have their own inline fuse that are much smaller.

In regard to the solenoid or whatever it is, it might be needed as I would guess winnebago would not install it, unless lithionics requried it as a part of the lithium upgrade. Based on the wire labeling, I think the solenoid might be able to turn the chargepoint on and off so that the lithiums do not receive too much charge. I spoke with mastervolt tech and the chargepoint is not a multi0-stage charger, it does not adjust or change to a float charge, if the lithiums are full, so this may be the reason it is there. I did also learn that that a simple switch can be wired to the spade connectors on the chargepoint so you can turn it off manually or actually use it as an emergency jumper from the coach to chassis batteries.
Since that solenoid part might be difficult to get, I am thinkning it might be better to just replace the chargepoint with a proper DC-DC charger like a victron orion 12-30, then you have no worries about overcharging the lithiums.