Lithium LiFePO4 Upgrade - 2020/21 Navion or View

[DavidM]

Originally Posted by Elkman

I can only guess but I expect that faster charging is not going to occur with the Onan generator that puts our 26 amps.

Yes it will as long as you do not have another major load on the generator. If the generator puts out 26 amps then that is plenty to power the 100 amp charger which typically only requires about 15 amps AC input.

David

[rprochnow]

As I recall from our recent trip - when running the diesel generator, we were actually seeing more than 30A of charge - though it's possible the additional was coming from the solar panels, since we were also in full sun at the time.

[AJMike]

Remember. The generator's rating is for 110-120 volts, so a 2800 watt generator is putting out approx 25-26 amps at 110 volts. When that is changed to 14 volts DC you get approximately 200 amps, less depending upon the efficiency of the conversion. Given an 80% efficient conversion the generator can theoretically put out about 160 amps, in practice somewhat less.

For the generator on my Fuse (rated at 2500 watts because it is propane, not gas or diesel) that figures is more like 140 amps theoretical, and I have seen very high charges to the Lithium batteries, well over 60 amps. I keep the charge down to about 45 amps with the PD dongle setting specifically for Lithium but you can get much more than 25 amps for the batteries from a generator.

[Elkman]

Ran a test over the past couple of days with a load on the batteries to take them down to 80% SOC and then reconnecting them and running the generator. After 25 minutes the two Lithionics batteries were at 100% and 97% SOC.The same test with the factory lead acid batteries resulted in a 50% SOC after two days of the fridge running and it took 2 hours to get them back 100% SOC.

The batteries showed an input current of 41 amps and that would be the sum of the Onan and whatever the two 100W solar panels were providing. With the lithium batteries the entire potential charging current can be utilized by them and greatly reduce the time needed to get them to 100% SOC.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Elkman

Ran a test over the past couple of days with a load on the batteries to take them down to 80% SOC and then reconnecting them and running the generator. After 25 minutes the two Lithionics batteries were at 100% and 97% SOC.The same test with the factory lead acid batteries resulted in a 50% SOC after two days of the fridge running and it took 2 hours to get them back 100% SOC.

The batteries showed an input current of 41 amps and that would be the sum of the Onan and whatever the two 100W solar panels were providing. With the lithium batteries the entire potential charging current can be utilized by them and greatly reduce the time needed to get them to 100% SOC.

If I remember correctly those Lithonics are 125AH batteries, so 80% SOC means that they were down 50AH. 25 minutes to 100% (or thereabouts) means that they were charging at the rate of 2AH/minute (or so since you did not charge both of them to a full 100%).

The OEM batteries are probably something like 65AH each so 50% SOC means that they were down about 65AH. 120 minutes to 100% means that they were charging at about 0.5AH/minute. That is a significant difference.

One question. BB says that the proper charge rate for their batteries is 40AH. What is the proper charge rate for Lithonics?

[rprochnow]

The Lithionics are 125Ah - providing 25% more power than the 100Ah BB batteries.

The Lithionics batteries are spec-ed to charge at <=50A, with peak charge rate of 100A (at 77F).

[misteracng]

Good info, Can you tell me the best place to order the lithionics batteries from?

[rprochnow]

Ours were installed by Lichtsinn, where we bought the RV.

[Elkman]

I bought mine from J.R. at offthegridrvs.com but the battereries were drop shipped from Lithionics in Florida to my house.

I would check with a Winnebago dealer to see if they can order a battery compartment for the lithium batteries. With my Navion there was only a tray that covered 75% of the bottom and left the front and back open to the weather and water, sand, and grime tossed up from the front tire. I attached a piece of HDPE to the base plate using 1/4" thread cutting screws and applied 1/4" neoprene insulation with an adhesive backing to bottom and sides the Navion battery compartment.

The Lithionics are the most expensive lithium phosphate batteries but I wanted as much capacity as possible with two group 31 size batteries. If there was room for more batteries I would have gone with less expensive 100AH lithium phosphate batteries.

[misteracng]

Thanks for the info, I think I will try for the lithionics, otherwise I'll go with battleborns

[Elkman]

Having a BIM built into the lithium batteries and have ones that provide for a Bluetooth connection from a smartphone has proven very useful in monitoring the charge in and out of the batteries and how effectively they are being recharged by the solar panels and their charge converter as well as from the Onan generator. Far more informative than the battery monitor from Winnebago.

[misteracng]

Built in BIM is really nice although I would just get the victron BIM with non lithionics batteries. One question about the charge mate 40 as this is included on the 2021. This unit is charging the house batteries from the alternator. I think from their website, there is no real way to tell it is actually working except to check the battery level going up and maybe looking at the light on the unit itself? Is it also true that the xantrex inverter is not involved in this process at all and would not show anything on its display?

[Elkman]

I had the dealer install the Battleborn Li-BIM 225 to manage flow between the chassis battery and the house lithium phosphate batteries. The Battleborn are less expensive but the Lithionics provide 25% more charge capacity and the BIM and Bluetooth connectivity.

I already have 10 connections in the battery comparttment and so running yet another wire for an external BIM is the last thing I wanted to do. With my previous RV I spent more time running the wires for solar and a second house battery than any other aspect of the upgrades that were done.

[Jrodri1981]

We are upgrading our 2021 navionJ to lithium batteries, tried the Lion but due a back order switch to battle born however would like to know if somebody has done the same and described the process
Thank you

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Jrodri1981

We are upgrading our 2021 navionJ to lithium batteries, tried the Lion but due a back order switch to battle born however would like to know if somebody has done the same and described the process
Thank you

“Done the same” as in upgrading batteries? Or in upgrading a 2021 Navion? Or having already described it?

[Jrodri1981]

Sorry, having already described it

[Koert]

Originally Posted by Jrodri1981

We are upgrading our 2021 navionJ to lithium batteries, tried the Lion but due a back order switch to battle born however would like to know if somebody has done the same and described the process
Thank you

Not quite sure what the situation is, but if “tried the Lion” means you’ve installed two of them and “but due to a back order switch to Battle Born” means you wanted to add more Lion Energy batteries but couldn’t find them to buy, then I might have an idea for you.

Our 2021 D came with lead-acid batteries. I just happened to have four Lion Energy batteries that I had bought at the Costco sale, so I immediately installed two under the steps and then later installed two more in the compartment near the coach door.

My plan was to buy four more (for a total of 800Ah) but before I could do that I discovered that Victron has a new 200Ah battery that is reasonably priced, and BigBattery.com has a 170Ah battery for only $1,000.

In our previous motorhome I upgraded out battery system by leaving the old system in place (two 6V golf cart batteries and 200W of solar panels) and added a 300W battery with it’s own solar panel and charge controller.

Seems like a half-assed way to do it but it has many benefits. First, I wasn’t taking apart and reconfiguring a working system, but more importantly I now had two redundant systems. A small stable (and proven) system to handle the basics and a larger new system to handle the “luxury” items (a new compressor refrigerator, a new entertainment system, and a new inverter for other “luxury” appliances we might want to use.)

The best part of having two separate systems (besides the backup aspect) is that we aren’t going to use up our vital (lights, fans, heater) power source because we left the TV on, or because the refrigerator drew more power than we expected.

So, in our new Navion, I’m thinking about doing the same thing. Leaving two Lion Energy batteries under the steps and adding a new large bank (with new solar panels) connected to the inverter. We really like using the induction cooktop, the microwave and the TV, and look forward to perhaps even using a little air conditioning occaisionally.

That would give us that dual-system configuration I liked so much in our old motorhome, and make installation and configuration much, much more easy.

[Elkman]

Not to confuse matters but in reading the manuals for the batteries and charge controllers and generator I came across a warning to not have more than 3 batteries wired in parallel. I am guessing it was an issue with the resistance involved.

With the diesel Onan running the input amps to the Lithionics batteries showed as 41 amps with 40 amps coming from the generator and 1 amp coming from the solar panels. The panels have 10 amps of output in total so the battery BIM may be gating the incoming charge.

[crah]

Originally Posted by Elkman

Not to confuse matters but in reading the manuals for the batteries and charge controllers and generator I came across a warning to not have more than 3 batteries wired in parallel. I am guessing it was an issue with the resistance involved.

With the diesel Onan running the input amps to the Lithionics batteries showed as 41 amps with 40 amps coming from the generator and 1 amp coming from the solar panels. The panels have 10 amps of output in total so the battery BIM may be gating the incoming charge.

Curious how you are only getting 40 amps from the generator (inverter charger). Are you measuring from the Lithionics Bluetooth app? That means when you bluetooth connect to 1 of the batteries, it should read 20amps (x2) batteries for a total of 40amps? If you have the inverter charger set up correctly, it should produce about 80amps of charging (40 per battery). It is not instantaneous and gradually ramps up to 80 amps. If you are only getting 40 amps total from the inverter/charger, something is wrong with the settings.

[rprochnow]

On the diesel generator, each of our Lithionics batteries is showing around 40A of charging - which should be around 40A x 14.4V (recommended charging voltage) x 2 batteries = 1152 W being sent to both batteries from the generator - still far below the full output of the QD 3200, but below the recommended max charging of 50A for the batteries.

The XC 2000 inverter is limited to 80A of charging current. Since the lithium batteries are 12V, they are run in parallel - splitting the charging current between the two batteries - 40A each battery.

The generator can provide more power - the limitation is the XC 2000 inverter.

Power from the solar panels through the Zamp controller doesn't go through the inverter - so that would be added above the 40A from the inverter, but would need to be below an additional 20A total (10A per battery) to stay within the batteries max charging current.

The View/Navion Zamp controller (ZS-30A) appears to be limited to 15A of charging current (or 7.5A per battery). Which would put the theoretical maximum charging per battery using generator (through the inverter) plus max power from the Zamp controller at 47.5A (per battery), though it seems likely the charging power from the solar panels will likely be below that.