Lithium LiFePO4 Upgrade - 2020/21 Navion or View

[ozon8r]

Originally Posted by lenore

I insulated the battery box and sealed all openings. I used Foam board for the insulation and filled in all gaps. So far even in freezing temps the batteries have never gone below 8 degrees centigrade.

Would you mind starting a thread describing what you did to mod the battery compartment including materials, costs, photos, and lessons learned? Also, how long have the mods been in place and held up to the abuse of road traveling?

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by ozon8r

Would you share more information about mods you made to the battery storage area? I left the area as is and the batteries are subject to much dust and debris. Either post here or pm me as I would love hear more about your mods to the battery tray.

Who are you responding to? You did not include a quote in your post so I don't know who you are asking for a response.

[medic69]

I haven't done one yet but I would be happy to post pics when I do.

[ozon8r]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Who are you responding to? You did not include a quote in your post so I don't know who you are asking for a response.

See post 121. Not sure why the prior post didnt pick up the quote, but saw that it was not included and re-attempted and worked second time for reasons unknown to me. Cheers.

[lenore]

Originally Posted by ozon8r

Would you mind starting a thread describing what you did to mod the battery compartment including materials, costs, photos, and lessons learned? Also, how long have the mods been in place and held up to the abuse of road traveling?

I am so sorry about not having a picture, However I have traveled 6k miles and in both hot and cold (27degrees) and the battery has performed better than expected.My battery has been in since September 2021. I made my own battery out of prismatic cells as covered by William Prowse videos. I intstalled a Renogy DC to DC 20Amp converter which has performed well on my 2018 sprinter chassis. It is amazing how fast the 280ah battery charges. I have never seen it go below 20%. I can run my refrigerator for 7 days without any plug in with my 300 Watt of solar backing it up.

[medic69]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Glad you were able to find an answer to your question.

They are very knowledgeable at BattleBorn and always available to help. They have helped me many times and saved me quite a bit of money, and I am glad they were able to help you as well.

Just to be safe I contacted Mastervolt. They informed that that the switch off voltage for the Chargemate 40 Pro is 12.5 volts. That means that the batteries would be at 14% charge before the Chargemate Pro would start to charge them. With that in mind I will install the Victron 12/30 DC to DC charger. Better safe than sorry.

[Loot87]

Originally Posted by medic69

Just to be safe I contacted Mastervolt. They informed that that the switch off voltage for the Chargemate 40 Pro is 12.5 volts. That means that the batteries would be at 14% charge before the Chargemate Pro would start to charge them. With that in mind I will install the Victron 12/30 DC to DC charger. Better safe than sorry.

Medic,
I'm trying to figure out what I need to do to upgrade my 21V.
I'm still confused on the ChargeMate 40 Pro, the Xantrex Combiner and the Victron DC-DC.
Are you putting the Victron between the CM40 and the batteries, or are you removing the CM40 altogether?
Is the Xantrex Combiner needed if the Victron is there?
If anyone has a wiring diagram of the 20+ model before and after the upgrade, that would be very useful.

[medic69]

After speaking with BattleBorn and several others I left the Chargemate Pro and did not install the DC to DC charger and everything is running fine. If you want to install one I would put it in place of the CM pro.

[Loot87]

Have you confirmed that the lithiums are below 20% when the CM starts to charge?
I looked at the Xantrex Combiner spec. It allows the alternator and other charging sources to charge the house batteries at the same time. I suppose that's helpful if you want to use solar to charge a little faster while driving, or maybe running the generator while driving. It seems a little over the top to me.
But if the CM is really sitting there idle until the house batteries are way low on charge, it allows something else to chip in.

I can see why Winnebago added it. It's logistically easier than replacing the CM with Victron on lithium upgrades.

If using the Victron, I see no purpose in having the Xantrex.

[medic69]

No. The alternator will charge until the BMS shuts it off. The CM only allows up to 40amps of charge so the alternator doesn't overheat. I'm not sure about the CM only charging at 14%. That was my interpretation of the manual. As it turns out I don't think that's correct.

[Loot87]

After looking at the CM40's spec, I think you're right. If the chassis battery is above 13.5, it's going to turn on. If it drops below 12.75, it will turn off. The level of the house battery isn't a factor. I guess the question is how well will a LiFePO4 charge at 13.5 vs > 14. Sounds like it's probably good enough for most.

[lenore]

Originally Posted by ozon8r

Would you mind starting a thread describing what you did to mod the battery compartment including materials, costs, photos, and lessons learned? Also, how long have the mods been in place and held up to the abuse of road traveling?

I used insulating foam board on 4 vertical sides of battery compartment. I filled in the gaps with foam board and HVAC foil tape to seal all gaps. Really quite simple, and it has worked well. I have put 7000plus miles on the motorhome since this Lithium upgrade. I experienced temps in the 20 degree range in Oregon and had no issues. The temp in the box never went below 8degrees Centigrade. I also provide a vent with screen on the outside step side of box to capture MH heat. Very pleased so far. My battery is one that I constructed from Prism cells (280ah total). I am able to run for 5 days with moderate sunlight and this is with a residential 120Volt AC refrigerator. In my installation I did not have the updated 40pro relay, just the old style relay under the passenger seat. So I installed a Renogy DC to DC converter to protect alternator. (20amp). If done again would use the Victron 30amp unit. Cost for insulation and tape probably less than $30

[Loot87]

Since I want the heaters, I was resigned to paying $1000 each for Battle Borns. But the SOKs look to have the same features for $630 each. I don't think I can ignore that.

[rprochnow]

We've operated our 21D in subfreezing temperatures, and the Lithionics 125Ah batteries have stayed within operating temperature range.

Lichtsinn installed the batteries as part of our purchase, using the same parts Winnebago used for factory lithium batteries - which includes a different battery box.

So far, haven't found a need to heat the batteries. Since the batteries are somewhat inside the conditioned coach - we've been able to keep them from getting too hot or too cold - so far.

Based on our experience, there hasn't been a need for the additional expense to have built-in heaters in the batteries.

[creativepart]

I just bought Renogy LiPos during their 25% off sale, and got an additional 5% off as a new customer.

$1898 for 400 amp hours. Free shipping and received them in 3-days. They have bluetooth monitoring with a phone app, Low (and high) temp charging cutoff as well as a -4 F discharge cut off as well. $47/aH.

The SOKs look OK at that price but I don't think they have low temp charging cutoff at that price.

Renogy right now are $549.99 for 100ah with Bluetooth monitoring and Low Temp protection. You may not need heating if the BMS takes care of low temps.

[lenore]

creativepart great deal and a lot of ah. considering now you have at least 360ah of true power .

[Loot87]

I asked Battle Born about the ChargeMate and got an interesting reply:

You are correct that the chargemate is not ideal for lithium batteries. The issue that comes up with this unit is the disconnect voltage. Per their specs, the chargemate will not disconnect the starter battery from house battery until the house bank reaches 12.75v. This is only 15% remaining capacity on a lithium battery, and means that the lithium bank and starter battery would be discharging in unison until the lithium batteries are almost depleted. So you can see why this may not be ideal, mostly because if the starter battery begins to discharge, it could cause issues with starting the vehicle. I do think your best option is as you stated, a Victron DC to DC charger. I do also agree that the combiner is not needed and having the DC to DC charge would be a great option.

The best advice we can give is going with the Victron Orion 30a DC to DC charger. When the engine is off everything is isolated, keeping the starter battery happy.



This is interesting as I had read the specs to indicate that the chassis battery at 12.75 caused the disconnect, not the house battery. I'm also surprised that the ChargeMate is even functioning when the alternator is not running.
Once I get my LiFePO4s installed, I'll run some experiments with the CM.
If I see issues, I'll switch it out with a Victron.

[2towbot]

Thx for posting!!
Any considerations to adding batteries?
Possibly in the under belly storage?
Thx again we are just taking delivery of our View this weekend

[medic69]

Originally Posted by Loot87

I asked Battle Born about the ChargeMate and got an interesting reply:

You are correct that the chargemate is not ideal for lithium batteries. The issue that comes up with this unit is the disconnect voltage. Per their specs, the chargemate will not disconnect the starter battery from house battery until the house bank reaches 12.75v. This is only 15% remaining capacity on a lithium battery, and means that the lithium bank and starter battery would be discharging in unison until the lithium batteries are almost depleted. So you can see why this may not be ideal, mostly because if the starter battery begins to discharge, it could cause issues with starting the vehicle. I do think your best option is as you stated, a Victron DC to DC charger. I do also agree that the combiner is not needed and having the DC to DC charge would be a great option.

The best advice we can give is going with the Victron Orion 30a DC to DC charger. When the engine is off everything is isolated, keeping the starter battery happy.



This is interesting as I had read the specs to indicate that the chassis battery at 12.75 caused the disconnect, not the house battery. I'm also surprised that the ChargeMate is even functioning when the alternator is not running.
Once I get my LiFePO4s installed, I'll run some experiments with the CM.
If I see issues, I'll switch it out with a Victron.

It's interesting that we get different answers from BB depending on who you talk to. I am using the CM40 on my 2020 Navion 24D but haven't taken any trips yet. Please let us know what your tests show. Upon installing the BB's my first drive the voltage went to 15v then immediately dropped to 14.6. I find that when plugged in to my 120v 20a outlet at home it rests at 13.6 which is the float charge. When not plugged in the voltage fluctuates a lot, even when just sitting.

[ozon8r]

Solar Upgrade and battery box enclosure...

Just an update on my journey with Lithium batteries and SOLAR PANEL modifications added this year.

I called Lichtsinn RV Parts and ordered the enclosed coach battery tray that comes with the Lithium battery upgrade, about $100. I removed the Lion Energy batteries to install the battery enclosure which just dropped into the existing battery area under the steps and screwed into the frame with sheet metal screws. Pretty simple and provides protection from road debris as well as some level of insulation to the Lion Energy batteries.

While I was performing this mod, I added a Victron Energy SmartShunt 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth) from amazon ($130) to allow monitoring of the battery state of charge from my phone. LOVE IT!

In the spring before Colorado camping season, I added four 210 watt NewPowa Solar Panels for a total of 840w of solar power removing the two 100w flexible panels. I did have to repair the roof damaged by the manner in which WBGO installed the panels on the roof. I used the Raptor bedliner paint which worked very well and adds a degree of slip protection on the roof. In addition to the solar panels, I installed a Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150|85-Tr Solar Charge Controller - 150V, 85A from Amazon ($700) under the passenger seat and removed the Zamp solar controller above the fridge installing a breaker box in that spot to turn off/isolate the solar panels from the electrical system. I configured the panels wiring to utilized the existing WBGO wiring staying within existing wiring specifications for amps/volts. Now that I have a season of experience (mostly boon docking here in the West) with the equipment in this post including the addition of 840w of solar, I am extremely pleased with the operation. I average about 500w of charge throughout the day peaking at 660w during optimal conditions. If the sun is out, this more than covers the Ah needed for the way we live in the coach. I don't see a need for additional solar panels and quite frankly, there is not much room left on the roof for any more considering I also have a satellite dish on the roof and reserved a few spots for the addition of a Starlink sat internet antenna as wells as a Parsec cellular wifi antenna (both yet to be installed). One thing I will note about the addition of the four 210w solar panels is that the coach stays much cooler in the hot sun having an additional barrier between the sun and the interior.

I will note that if there is not much sun to recharge the batteries, I will run the installed diesel gennie for about an hour before bed to ensure plenty of charge for the reefer over night even though I do put the reefer into sleep mode before crawling into bed. I also put ensure the the inverter is off and power down the Dish Wally as the roof dish is sometimes activated at night and sounds like R2D2 on the roof. With this process, I have not worried about waking up to dead batteries which was a problem the first season after installing the lithium batteries.