Lithium LiFePO4 Upgrade - 2020/21 Navion or View

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

Our 2021 24D has two Lithionics Group 31 125Ah batteries.

Lithionics sells 315 Ah and 320 Ah that are about the same width, less than twice as long and 1.5" taller.

Wonder if one of these batteries could be used in the View battery compartment instead of having two Group 31 batteries... It would provide more power than having two smaller batteries...

I have thought about replacing the 2 BB 100AH batteries with one of those, but that ends up leaving you with a single point of failure. If you have a battery problem you have no backup battery and most things no longer work in the RV.

[rprochnow]

That's true. But we already have other single points of failure such as the inverter, transfer switch, chassis battery and solar controller.

After boondocks without electrical hookups in very cold and very hot temps, the extra power would be worth more than the redundancy...

[Gpa]

Originally Posted by ozon8r

This forum has been very helpful and informative for me both with Lithium Iron (LiFePO4) batteries as well as the trickle charging of the starter battery. After reading various threads and additional research from other forums, manufacturer sites, talking with Winnebago directly and reviewing Winnebago wiring schematics on the Winnebago Owners page, I wanted to contribute what I learned and the work I have completed for the benefit of others that may also pursue aftermarket/after purchase LiFePO4 battery options. BTW, I believe either AGM/Lithium Iron is a must for boondocking any length of time with coaches utilizing a compressor fridge which is not nearly as efficient as propane IMO and as stated in threads on this forum.

A inventory review of what the 2020-21 Navion/View has without the Winnebago Xantrex Lithium battery upgrade:

1) Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 Watt Inverter/Charger (part number 817-2080)
even though the control panel inside the coach only indicates that this is just an inverter (“Freedom X” as printed on the remote controller inside the coach vs “Freedom XC” printed on the inverter controller),
2) ChargeMatePro 40 under the pax seat limiting the max amperage from the chassis alternator to just 40A,
3) Zamp Solar Charge Controller (ZS-30A) above the fridge,
4) Onan Generator (LP or Diesel, doesn't matter, but I have the Diesel version),
5) Shorepower, and
6) 2 Flooded Deep Cycle Napa batteries, the only item that needs to be removed and replaced with LiFePO4 batteries. Battery cables may be needed depending on the pole configuration of the new batteries. I confirmed no other hardware or upgrades were required with Winnebago directly as well as the dealer RV tech lead (Trans West).

The standard flooded batteries can be charged from one of four sources, 1) Solar via the Zamp Solar Charge Controller, 2) Onan Generator by way of the Zantrex Inverter, 3) Shorepower by way of the Zantrex Inverter, and 4) from the chassis alternator by way of the ChargeMatePro 40. The new LiFePO4 batteries will be charged from the same source.

Upgrading from the flooded deep cycle standard house batteries to LiFePO4 requires consideration of the charge source amperage and voltage, referencing the sources above, controlled by three devices;
1) Zamp Solar Charge Controller,
2) ChargeMatePro 40, and
3) Zantrex Freedom XC 2000.
Changing the Zamp Solar Charge Controller (solar power source) from default AGM value to liFePO4 automatically adjusts absorption voltage with no other changes needed (https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...UserManual.pdf). For charge coming thru the Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 (pulling from either shore or generator power), changing the battery type on the controller adjusts the amperage and voltage based on the battery type selected with additional options to fine tune the adjustments for bulk, float, absorption, charge amps and volts, depending on lithium battery specifications from the batteries installed, Inverter/Charger manual here (Xantrex | Power Inverter, Inverter Charger, Battery Charger Manufacturer XC/Freedom XC Series INV-CHG Owners Guide (975-0784-01-01_Rev-B)_ENG.pdf). For charge coming from the chassis alternator, there are no adjustments available on the ChargeMatePro 40; yet the ChargeMatePro 40 protects the house batteries from amperages beyond 40a which helps prevent damage to the house batteries.

Netting out the above, if you purchased the 2020/21 Navion/View with the standard flooded deep cycle house batteries and you want to upgrade to AGM or LiFePO4, all you need to do is drop in the LiFePO4 batteries (may require wire upgrade depending on battery pole configuration) and then change the settings on both the Zantrex Inverter Charger control panel and the Zamp Charge Controller, and done. $1500-$2000 option plus about 2 hours work with basic tools versus the cost of the Winnebago upgrade referenced above, ~$5300 (I honestly didn’t even know that option existed when I bought my Navion).

Here is what I chose and installed:
Although I own the Battle Born 100AH battery ($950) and swear by these things after much abuse and punishment, I opted to try Lion 1300 105AH batteries ($1400 at Costco for two, $750 individually) principally for the cost, but also for the smaller size and a bit lighter (24lbs vs 31lbs times two batteries). I also chose the LiFePO4 over AGM due to total cost of ownership over a longer period of time, I believe it is more economical to go the LiFePO4 route, as well as the difference in weight given the limited Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) I inherited with the coach, 1288lbs according to the sticker inside the pax door.

WRT to the Lion 1300, most of the youtube reviews I watched for the newer 1300 model seemed generally favorable. If the spread in price between the Lion 1300 and BB was less than $150 each and the BBs were more readily availability, I would have opted for the BB again. Note that the Lions are manufactured and assembled in China while the Battle Born batteries are assembled in the US and are UL Listed. Here is the link to the Lion 1300 battery specs, https://support.lionenergy.com/files...l_20191209.pdf Here is a link to BB battery specs, https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...cycle-battery/


Additionally, I installed the AMP-L-Start from LSL products (AMP-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer - Overview Page) choosing this option over the TRK-L-Start because of the ability to adjust the start and stop charge for Lithium house batteries by way of a jumper connection. This install was fairly simple, less than an hour of time. I removed the pax seat and the bracket that allows the seat to rotate (8 bolts) to access the ChargeMate Pro 40. The top pole of the ChargeMatePro connects to the “Starting+” stud on the Amp-L, the bottom pole of the ChargeMatePro connects to the “House+” stud on the Amp-L, and the “GND-“ connected to the large front right bolt inside the seat pedestal, all using the supplied ring terminals but requiring separately purchased 10 gauge wire with each wire about 12” long based on where I mounted the Amp-L on the right rear outside of the pax pedestal near the B pillar, easily accessible by lifting the chair pedestal skirt. I adjusted the jumper as recommended by LSL to the lithium setting after confirming this was correct via email from the lead engineer at LSL.

Additional resources:
Navion/View 24J Chassis Wiring Diagram, https://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/2020/000164549.pdf
ChargeMatePro 40 specs, https://www.mastervolt.com/products/...e-mate-pro-40/

Please let me know if I left anything out, any information is inaccurate, or if you have any additional questions.

Thanks for clarifying need to do. I wish posts would all include year and model. I'm installing ,diy ,2 renogy 100 ah w/Bluetooth this friday. Thanks Steve

[Redd22]

This thread has been very informative and has really helped me dial in whats needed to upgrade to Lithium batteries on my 2020 View.

I understand those that got the Lithium upgrade from the factory received a different enclosed version of a battery box. The stock box on the Views for the Wet Cell batteries has good size openings on each side.

For those of you that did the drop in upgrade yourself, did do anything to seal off or insulate the stock battery box, or just leave it as is?

Thanks

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Redd22

This thread has been very informative and has really helped me dial in whats needed to upgrade to Lithium batteries on my 2020 View.

I understand those that got the Lithium upgrade from the factory received a different enclosed version of a battery box. The stock box on the Views for the Wet Cell batteries has good size openings on each side.

For those of you that did the drop in upgrade yourself, did do anything to seal off or insulate the stock battery box, or just leave it as is?

Thanks

I did not. I just had the dealership move the 2 BattleBorn Lithium batteries into the regular battery box.

I suppose the sealed battery box you refer to is to keep the batteries warmer since Lithium batteries, if unheated, won't take a charge in the cold. Since we live in southern Arizona that is not an issue for us as the coldest weather we generally see is in the low 40s.

If you worry about this you can choose to buy some of the heated Lithium batteries and they will keep themselves warm during cold weather, although at the cost of eating their own power. BattleBorn makes heated Lithium batteries, as I assume other manufacturers do as well, but I think the main question is whether or not you plan to camp in freezing weather. If not, why is this an issue for you?

[Redd22]

Originally Posted by AJMike

I did not. I just had the dealership move the 2 BattleBorn Lithium batteries into the regular battery box.

I suppose the sealed battery box you refer to is to keep the batteries warmer since Lithium batteries, if unheated, won't take a charge in the cold. Since we live in southern Arizona that is not an issue for us as the coldest weather we generally see is in the low 40s.

If you worry about this you can choose to buy some of the heated Lithium batteries and they will keep themselves warm during cold weather, although at the cost of eating their own power. BattleBorn makes heated Lithium batteries, as I assume other manufacturers do as well, but I think the main question is whether or not you plan to camp in freezing weather. If not, why is this an issue for you?

Thanks AJ.
I have narrowed the batteries down to the BattleBorns, Renogy or Rebel. I'm considering the heated BB's but they are not cheap.

To answer your question we do get over to Bend Oregon a couple of times late fall and a couple more early spring and it can get down into the mid 20's sometimes at night. I don't boondock at those temps, we are always plugged into 30 amp, so I'm not sure if that makes a difference

[lenore]

I insulated the battery box and sealed all openings. I used Foam board for the insulation and filled in all gaps. So far even in freezing temps the batteries have never gone below 8 degrees centigrade.

[Redd22]

Originally Posted by lenore

I insulated the battery box and sealed all openings. I used Foam board for the insulation and filled in all gaps. So far even in freezing temps the batteries have never gone below 8 degrees centigrade.

I was considering something similar with either foam board insulation or reflective bubble wrap material.

Do you have any pictures, or details on how you completed the process?

Thanks

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Redd22

To answer your question we do get over to Bend Oregon a couple of times late fall and a couple more early spring and it can get down into the mid 20's sometimes at night. I don't boondock at those temps, we are always plugged into 30 amp, so I'm not sure if that makes a difference

We are exactly opposite in that we boondock all year except in the summer when it is too hot. Then we use regular campgrounds for the shore power so we can run the AC. But we avoid those places that are truly cold (that is, near freezing) in the Winter and camp only where the night time temperatures will be above freezing.

As for whether or not plugging in makes a difference, I would think that it might depending on how you camp. Years ago, before we found how much we like boon docking, we used to camp at RV parks all the time. When we did that we took a small ceramic electric heater and ran it at night in the Winter, keeping the inside of the RV relatively warm. Doing that meant that the underside of the RV was also much warmer than the surrounding area due to heat leakage and I would think that that would help keep the batteries warmer as well.

As I understand it. the problem with Lithium batteries in the cold is that they will not take a charge, not that they will not provide power, so even if you are camped where it is below freezing at night you should be able to still charge the batteries as long as it is above freezing during the day. Assuming that I understand correctly.

[lenore]

Sorry didnt take any pictures but it really is just measuring and cutting, I used Foil tape where necessary to hold foam in place. Note: I also put a air vent in the steps vertical for allowing coach air to maintain the temp.

[medic69]

Originally Posted by Gpa

Thanks for clarifying need to do. I wish posts would all include year and model. I'm installing ,diy ,2 renogy 100 ah w/Bluetooth this friday. Thanks Steve

Great and thorough report. I spoke with WB and was told that I should install a DC to DC charger. What do you think about that?

[medic69]

Originally Posted by Gpa

Thanks for clarifying need to do. I wish posts would all include year and model. I'm installing ,diy ,2 renogy 100 ah w/Bluetooth this friday. Thanks Steve

Thank you. I have a 2020 Navion 24D with the Chargemate Pro. WB told me I should install a DC to DC charger between the Chargemate and the batteries. Any advice on that? Thanks

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by medic69

Great and thorough report. I spoke with WB and was told that I should install a DC to DC charger. What do you think about that?

There seem to be 3 options.

1) Some posters have said that some alternators are built with self-limiting outputs and that those do not need any external current limiters. I do not know if that is true or, if it is, which alternators those might be. I go on the assumption that while it may be true it is safest to assume it is not unless you are very sure of what you believe to be true.

2) You can install a DC-DC charger to limit the current to your Lithium batteries. That is what I did, and I have a Victron 30 amp DC-DC charger between my alternator and my BB Lithium batteries. I would prefer a higher output charger, and I do have a Renogy 40 amp DC-DC charger, but for the moment I am keeping my Victron in place.

3) You can install a BIM (battery isolation manager) to switch the alternator output to your batteries on and off. This serves to allow your alternator to charge your batteries at full output, but prevents it from doing for so long enough to damage the alternator itself. One of the local shops near where I live recommends this as compared to a DC-DC charger as it is less expensive but I prefer a constant limited current for a couple of reasons, none of which might be important to you.

There are now a large number of Lithium battery providers, but you probably will be limited to whatever provider you started with if you choose to add more batteries later. I originally bought 2 100AH BattleBorn batteries when we first converted from wet cell to Lithium, so I needed another BattleBorn battery when I added a 3rd battery. Now you have a large number of options - BattleBorn, Renogy, Lion, ReLion, SOK and a ton of others. You might want to take a look at some of the YouTube videos concerning teardown of these batteries to help you choose a provider you will feel comfortable with.

[medic69]

Originally Posted by AJMike

There seem to be 3 options.

1) Some posters have said that some alternators are built with self-limiting outputs and that those do not need any external current limiters. I do not know if that is true or, if it is, which alternators those might be. I go on the assumption that while it may be true it is safest to assume it is not unless you are very sure of what you believe to be true.

2) You can install a DC-DC charger to limit the current to your Lithium batteries. That is what I did, and I have a Victron 30 amp DC-DC charger between my alternator and my BB Lithium batteries. I would prefer a higher output charger, and I do have a Renogy 40 amp DC-DC charger, but for the moment I am keeping my Victron in place.

3) You can install a BIM (battery isolation manager) to switch the alternator output to your batteries on and off. This serves to allow your alternator to charge your batteries at full output, but prevents it from doing for so long enough to damage the alternator itself. One of the local shops near where I live recommends this as compared to a DC-DC charger as it is less expensive but I prefer a constant limited current for a couple of reasons, none of which might be important to you.

There are now a large number of Lithium battery providers, but you probably will be limited to whatever provider you started with if you choose to add more batteries later. I originally bought 2 100AH BattleBorn batteries when we first converted from wet cell to Lithium, so I needed another BattleBorn battery when I added a 3rd battery. Now you have a large number of options - BattleBorn, Renogy, Lion, ReLion, SOK and a ton of others. You might want to take a look at some of the YouTube videos concerning teardown of these batteries to help you choose a provider you will feel comfortable with.

Thanks. The Chargemate Pro 40 was factory installed. Do you think that would be enough?

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by medic69

Thanks. The Chargemate Pro 40 was factory installed. Do you think that would be enough?

I have to say that I am not familiar with it, so I can not say if it is sufficient or not. My recommendation would be to call one of the Lithium battery manufacturers and ask their tech folks as they should be familiar with what will work and what won't work. Alternately you could check with one of the local RV repair shops and ask them, but then you will need to check with one you feel you can trust.

When I have questions like this I call BattleBorn to ask. They have both a toll free number and available techs to answer technical questions like this. Since you might want to get their batteries (or not) it seems reasonable to check with them and their advice would probably work for all valid Lithium installs.

[TravatoJohn]

Maybe I missed it but no mention of lower temperature charging limit switch. I looked on the website and didn’t find one. A battery this expensive should have one. Travato John

[medic69]

There's a built in BMS with upper and lower temp limits for charging and discharging.

[medic69]

I just spoke with Jodi at Battleborn and she said the Mastervolt Chargemate Pro 40 would be all I need. DC to DC charger optional.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by medic69

I just spoke with Jodi at Battleborn and she said the Mastervolt Chargemate Pro 40 would be all I need. DC to DC charger optional.

Glad you were able to find an answer to your question.

They are very knowledgeable at BattleBorn and always available to help. They have helped me many times and saved me quite a bit of money, and I am glad they were able to help you as well.

[ozon8r]

Would you share more information about mods you made to the battery storage area? I left the area as is and the batteries are subject to much dust and debris. Either post here or pm me as I would love hear more about your mods to the battery tray.