View/Navion Lithium Smart Battery Option

[mricet1005]

I have tried searching this and other forums as well as the internet and YouTube, however, I have not been able to find the information I am looking for regarding the lithium battery option on the 2020 View/Navion. I'm hoping someone on this forum can help.

As background, I currently have a 41 ft Class A DP, but travel solo and I'm considering downsizing to a View/Navion. I hope to do more boondocking and dry camping and would possibly interested in the lithium option. What I haven't been able to find is any details about the option: What is the AH capacity of the battery bank and what else comes with the option besides just the batteries (because the option is way more than like two Battleborn batteries)? For example, does it include a different inverter/charger, different BIM to facilitate charging via the alternator? What else? I think I saw somewhere that the option's price is $5322.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

[Winterbagoal]

Why not call Winnebago or a nearby dealer and ask them? As far as I know, they're 2 12V 100Ah lithium batteries in parallel. No idea make/model/etc.
Personally, I'd go with the basic GR31 AGMs to start, and if you need more power on a flatter voltage curve and the other benefits of LiFePO4 over the AGMs, just add some Battle Borns or Relions or Renogy GR31 lithiums when you're ready to switch. It will cost you less, long run. WGO price includes a huge markup, I would assume.
It's what I did on our 2018 N24V. Most top end lithium units these days have a built in BMS system to control everything, they're pretty much idiot proof, so don't worry too much about the BIM stuff. I just ran us off grid for a week on the road, just driving a few hundred miles a day, and they charged up and supplied plenty of power overnight with no special care or feeding. I did add a Charge Wizard pendant to my existing PD9245 converter/charger to boost the charge current when plugged in to shore, but didn't use/need it at all while on the road.

[DavidM]

As a compromise among inexpensive flooded cell batteries, more expensive AGM batteries and very expensive Li Ion batteries such as Batlleborns, consider Firefly Oasis carbon foam batteries.

These are available in G 31 sizes at 116 AH capacity. They will last longer with more discharge/charge cycles than FLA or AGMs and like Li Ion can be discharged deeply with no harm. Cost about $500 each.

Well maybe that is very expensive and Battleborns are incredibly expensive for about $900 each.

David

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by DavidM

These are available in G 31 sizes at 116 AH capacity. They will last longer with more discharge/charge cycles than FLA or AGMs and like Li Ion can be discharged deeply with no harm. Cost about $500 each.

Acutally, they still have the 50% discharge limitations if you don't want to shorten the life of the battery by 2/3rds:

Info from the Firefly data sheet:

50% DOD ~3600 cycles
80% DOD ~1000 cycles

[mricet1005]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

Why not call Winnebago or a nearby dealer and ask them? As far as I know, they're 2 12V 100Ah lithium batteries in parallel. No idea make/model/etc.
Personally, I'd go with the basic GR31 AGMs to start, and if you need more power on a flatter voltage curve and the other benefits of LiFePO4 over the AGMs, just add some Battle Borns or Relions or Renogy GR31 lithiums when you're ready to switch. It will cost you less, long run. WGO price includes a huge markup, I would assume.
It's what I did on our 2018 N24V. Most top end lithium units these days have a built in BMS system to control everything, they're pretty much idiot proof, so don't worry too much about the BIM stuff. I just ran us off grid for a week on the road, just driving a few hundred miles a day, and they charged up and supplied plenty of power overnight with no special care or feeding. I did add a Charge Wizard pendant to my existing PD9245 converter/charger to boost the charge current when plugged in to shore, but didn't use/need it at all while on the road.

Thanks, if I get serious, I will discuss with dealer or Winnebago customer service. Just thought someone might know. I know dealer markup is part of it, but if they are only providing 200 ah of lithium batteries, then that's like an almost 3x markup. So I was thinking there had to be more to it. I understand the Battleborn and similar have battery management circuits to prevent charging in temps too cold or hot and other protections.

My question about the BIM was that I had read that with the stock setup the alternator while driving won't charge or fully charge the batteries with out a different module between the alternator and the batteries. But I'm a novice when it comes to lithium and the View/Navion charging systems.

Lastly, since you updated your batteries to Lithium yourself, do the GR31 drop in replacement lithium batteries fit ok into the battery compartment or did you have to do modifications to get them to fit.

Thanks

[creativepart]

The OP's question is a good one. It's been asked before and, it seems, no one knows the answer. You can't find it at the WBGO website, nor in the brochure or even on YouTube.

Seems that this oversight is surprising. I've been trying to find out. If I learn what the details are I'll report back here.

[mricet1005]

Originally Posted by creativepart

The OP's question is a good one. It's been asked before and, it seems, no one knows the answer. You can't find it at the WBGO website, nor in the brochure or even on YouTube.

Seems that this oversight is surprising. I've been trying to find out. If I learn what the details are I'll report back here.

Thank you! I'm glad I wasn't the only one who couldn't find it. Also, if I ever get a full answer I will post a follow-up too.

[DavidM]

Just like any battery type whether it be FLA, AGM, Firefly or Li-Ion, normal chassis alternators do a lousy job of charging quickly. This is because they are regulated at a fixed 13.5 volts typically. The first three types need to see the voltage build up to about 14.5 before they switch to float mode.

The 30A nominal circuit from the alternator in my TV to my trailer connector produces only 10 amps into a 30% discharged battery, more if it is 50%, maybe 15 amps.

There are ways to compensate. One is a high output alternator with an external 3 step regulator. The other is a device made by Sterling that is a battery to battery charger that boosts the charging voltage and is a three step charger. I don't particularly like the latter because it can overload a stock alternator.

And BTW good catch about the discharge limitations for the Firefly battery. But 1,000 cycles is as good as most FLA or AGMs, not sure about Li-Ions. Can they do 3,600 cycles?

David

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by DavidM

not sure about Li-Ions. Can they do 3,600 cycles?
David

Most claim between 3,000 - 5,000 cycles based on DoD. That 3,000 cycles is at 80% discharge.

Here's the small print at Battleborn:

*Approximately 75-80% of the battery capacity will remain after 3000 cycles in applications recharging at 0.5C or lower

We have seen life spans well over 5000 cycles in our lab testing.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by mricet1005

Thanks, if I get serious, I will discuss with dealer or Winnebago customer service. Just thought someone might know. I know dealer markup is part of it, but if they are only providing 200 ah of lithium batteries, then that's like an almost 3x markup. So I was thinking there had to be more to it. I understand the Battleborn and similar have battery management circuits to prevent charging in temps too cold or hot and other protections.

My question about the BIM was that I had read that with the stock setup the alternator while driving won't charge or fully charge the batteries with out a different module between the alternator and the batteries. But I'm a novice when it comes to lithium and the View/Navion charging systems.

Lastly, since you updated your batteries to Lithium yourself, do the GR31 drop in replacement lithium batteries fit ok into the battery compartment or did you have to do modifications to get them to fit.

Thanks

Sorry if I oversimplified things - not intended to offend.
I'm pretty sure Winnebago just thinks they can sell lithiums at that price and people won't care. The full body paint was around $5000 when we bought ours, and I'm sure I could have had it done professionally after purchase for 1/3 of that. So, I think it's just one of the ways they stay in business. Gouge.
I just ran mine over 4,000 miles using the MB 220A alternator and whatever factory setup that was in place to charge the inadequate Napa 8240 FLA batteries, and had zero problems, and they were fully charged after every day's drive, if that helps?
Lastly, yes, I had to grind off the vertical ends of the battery box base on either end to make room for the GR31 Relions (RB100-LT can be charged down to 4F with a biult in heating system). The original batteries were GR34 and not as long as the Relions. Took about 5 minutes with an angle grinder I picked up cheap at Walmart. I then added a cut to size piece of rigid rubber floor mat I also picked up at Walmart for about $5, I think? As a base and to help support ehm and protect them from road debris and so on. Even grinding the ends of the tray off, it was still a really tight fit, but I got them in and the OEM tie downs actually fit because the Relions are a smidgen shorter that the originals. I also had to source some longer paralleling cables, as the originals were just a 1/2" too short.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by DavidM

As a compromise among inexpensive flooded cell batteries, more expensive AGM batteries and very expensive Li Ion batteries such as Batlleborns, consider Firefly Oasis carbon foam batteries.

These are available in G 31 sizes at 116 AH capacity. They will last longer with more discharge/charge cycles than FLA or AGMs and like Li Ion can be discharged deeply with no harm. Cost about $500 each.

Well maybe that is very expensive and Battleborns are incredibly expensive for about $900 each.

David

The Firefly units you suggest look good, except for weight. 74lbs each. As long as you're putting them in something with enough room under the OCCC limit to add them, they don't look too bad. LiFePO4 has that advantage over all the other options.

[Dave-Oh]

Here is the info I have on the 2020 View's lithium batteries (I have one with the Lithium battery option and asked both Winnebago and Xantrex about it as I was doing my research):

Basically you have 2, 125 aH LiFePo batteries. There is also a smartphone bluetooth app you can use to monitor them as well.

[mricet1005]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

Here is the info I have on the 2020 View's lithium batteries (I have one with the Lithium battery option and asked both Winnebago and Xantrex about it as I was doing my research):

Basically you have 2, 125 aH LiFePo batteries. There is also a smartphone bluetooth app you can use to monitor them as well.

Thank you for the info! So if I understand the info you are providing, you are only getting batteries (that have built in bluetooth monitoring) for the $5300 MSRP list price. That seems steep compared to price of for example 2 BattleBorn batteries (although you are getting a 25% more capacity). But it sounds like the stock converter/charger is not updated.

Have you dry camped with these batteries? How long do you have to run the generator to get them fully charged? From what I have read (if correct), the main issue actually is that the wiring from the stock converter/charger is too small and limits the theoretical charging capacity of the charger to about 10 amps?

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by mricet1005

Thank you for the info! So if I understand the info you are providing, you are only getting batteries (that have built in bluetooth monitoring) for the $5300 MSRP list price. That seems steep compared to price of for example 2 BattleBorn batteries (although you are getting a 25% more capacity). But it sounds like the stock converter/charger is not updated.

Have you dry camped with these batteries? How long do you have to run the generator to get them fully charged? From what I have read (if correct), the main issue actually is that the wiring from the stock converter/charger is too small and limits the theoretical charging capacity of the charger to about 10 amps?

That built in bluetooth monitor system is probably why they're pricier than a standard BB or Renogy or Relion. That is impressive technology, and it comes with the jars. No need to add extra hardware. It is very comprehensive info about the battery status, and I would have paid more for my lithiums if they came equipped with it.

[Dave-Oh]

Originally Posted by mricet1005

Thank you for the info! So if I understand the info you are providing, you are only getting batteries (that have built in bluetooth monitoring) for the $5300 MSRP list price. That seems steep compared to price of for example 2 BattleBorn batteries (although you are getting a 25% more capacity). But it sounds like the stock converter/charger is not updated.

Have you dry camped with these batteries? How long do you have to run the generator to get them fully charged? From what I have read (if correct), the main issue actually is that the wiring from the stock converter/charger is too small and limits the theoretical charging capacity of the charger to about 10 amps?

Attached the info on the charger that winnebago sent me. I don't really plan to dry camp significantly so I have not tried them out for that. I can' really speak to much about the battery system yet as we haven't really had the unit out yet. Will be heading to Myrtle Beach next week.

I have run a 1500 watt heater off of the inverter and basically tested the system, but not really monitored the charging rate. I also had a Xantrex LinkPro battery monitor installed, but may have jumped the gun on that one as the Xantrex monitor for the 2k watt inverter that WBGO includes is pretty good and additionally, the One Place monitor also gives info on the chassis battery charge as well as the coach batteries.

I wanted no maintenance on the batteries, maybe will upgrade they system in the future to be able to run the air-conditioning for a couple of hours while we're shopping so the dogs will be safe, but that won't be for a year or so.

Also of note: The chassis battery is not charged from shore power. I wanted a Trik-L-Start or some other device to allow that, but it will void the Mercedes Warranty (they apparently frown on different battery types being connected), so basically, if the View sits for more than 2 weeks, you'll need a charger - I got a Battery Tender for this purpose as I'm not willing to fight Mercedes about warranty issues and it is a very quick hookup.

Final issue: I did note that the Xantrex system was set to Flooded and not Lithium on the settings. An easy programming change to the lithium battery profile. Just noted that the other day as I was checking on the FLOAT voltage of the batteries.

As for the system cost: By the time I would be able to find a vendor that would be able to upgrade the batteries and such, I'm sure the cost wouldn't be much different (I'm not that handy). The cost for the option, although high, is Winnegago's "MSRP" and the final cost will be what you negotiate with your dealer....mine was 30% less than MSRP. Your mileage may vary.

I'll know a little more about the lithiums after the upcoming trip.

Good luck on your research.

best

Dave

PS: the ChargeMate Pro is the alternator charging system. The Xantrex Inverter/charging system manages the shore-power/generator charging.....

[crah]

I have a 2020 View with the Lithium option. Like one of the posters mentioned, the batteries are 125 amp hour Lithionics batteries. If you do research on Lithionics and check their spec, in my opinion they are better than the Battleborns.

When I purchased, I did not want the Lithium option as i thought thought the price was too high and I could do something cheaper. But in reality, each battery is 25 amp hours more, and no one else makes batteries that will fit that compartment with more capacity. There isn't a converter that charges either. The xantrex inverter/charger replaces that. The other poster mentioned the components that are included to charge from the chassis battery.

I'm glad I did get the option instead of converting myself. If I did it my self, I probably would have saved a couple of bucks but would have had to work hard to make it look right. Not sure if the battery box is completely sealed on the original AGM battery box either. I mostly dry camp, so the lithium is nice especially with the DC compressor fridge and the heater running all night.

I would like to add a amp L start to charge the chassis batteries but haven't figured out where to install it. 2020 they discontinued the battery boost function so there is no solenoid to connect to.

[crah]

Do you know where this charge mate pro is located. Looking at the specs, it doesn't seem this is correct for the 2020. Seems this may be the 2019 and older models? Could be wrong. It the charge mate pro looks like it connects the house and chassis battery and has a battery boost function which the 2020s don't have. I did see a unfamiliar component into the battery box that I didn't check into. Seems also some of the items I've requested from Winnebago is outdated for the 2020 model. The online diagrams from their website was not accurate when I looked back 3 weeks ago. All info seemed to be for the older models.

[Dave-Oh]

Originally Posted by crah

Do you know where this charge mate pro is located. Looking at the specs, it doesn't seem this is correct for the 2020. Seems this may be the 2019 and older models? Could be wrong. It the charge mate pro looks like it connects the house and chassis battery and has a battery boost function which the 2020s don't have. I did see a unfamiliar component into the battery box that I didn't check into. Seems also some of the items I've requested from Winnebago is outdated for the 2020 model. The online diagrams from their website was not accurate when I looked back 3 weeks ago. All info seemed to be for the older models.

The following questions were asked by me and answered directly by Winnebago Owner relations - their answers are in red:

Would you have any information on the following?:

1. Does the chassis/starter battery of the View charge when on shore power? No...... There are no provisions to charge the chassis/cranking battery while plugged into shore power

2. What battery management system for the lithium batteries is on board? The Lithionics ‘brand’ lithium battery has its own mini-BMS (battery management system). We have added several devices in the charging system that allow us to ‘stop’ charging of the lithium batteries once the batteries have been ‘fully charged’. Once coaches begin to ship, we can coach you to our public web-site... to our ‘on-line’ wiring information. See https://winnebagoind.com/diagram/Wiring.htm

3. Does the alternator charge the coach batteries while under way? Yes.... via the ChargeMate - Pro charge controller...... see attached documentation.

4. Is there a State of Charge indicator? Or just volts? No SOC gauge to indicate percentage of charge in the house battery package.... so voltage threshold only.

Finally:

5. Is there a wiring schematic available? In the very-near future...... keep an eye on the public web-site.... or give a call to discuss while you’re sitting at a computer and we can walk you in!

*****

I would also add again that adding a device that will connect the two battery systems will (according to my dealership who checked with Mercedes-Benz) void the warranty. I would double check that issue before adding a Trik-L-Start or Echo Charge system that keeps the chassis battery charged from the coach batteries/shore power.

[crah]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

The following questions were asked by me and answered directly by Winnebago Owner relations - their answers are in red:

Would you have any information on the following?:

1. Does the chassis/starter battery of the View charge when on shore power? No...... There are no provisions to charge the chassis/cranking battery while plugged into shore power

2. What battery management system for the lithium batteries is on board? The Lithionics ‘brand’ lithium battery has its own mini-BMS (battery management system). We have added several devices in the charging system that allow us to ‘stop’ charging of the lithium batteries once the batteries have been ‘fully charged’. Once coaches begin to ship, we can coach you to our public web-site... to our ‘on-line’ wiring information. See https://winnebagoind.com/diagram/Wiring.htm

3. Does the alternator charge the coach batteries while under way? Yes.... via the ChargeMate - Pro charge controller...... see attached documentation.

4. Is there a State of Charge indicator? Or just volts? No SOC gauge to indicate percentage of charge in the house battery package.... so voltage threshold only.

Finally:

5. Is there a wiring schematic available? In the very-near future...... keep an eye on the public web-site.... or give a call to discuss while you’re sitting at a computer and we can walk you in!

*****

I would also add again that adding a device that will connect the two battery systems will (according to my dealership who checked with Mercedes-Benz) void the warranty. I would double check that issue before adding a Trik-L-Start or Echo Charge system that keeps the chassis battery charged from the coach batteries/shore power.

Thanks for the info. I heard the same thing on the warranty, but I've added a Trik L Start on pretty much every coach I've owned so don't mind the risk. For the Lithium batteries you would need an Amp L Start instead of Trik L Start. The Amp L Start is compatible with Lithium charge profile. I'm still surprised they got rid of the battery boost function on the 2020 model. I will have to investigate the charge mate pro this weekend.

[Dave-Oh]

Originally Posted by crah

Thanks for the info. I heard the same thing on the warranty, but I've added a Trik L Start on pretty much every coach I've owned so don't mind the risk. For the Lithium batteries you would need an Amp L Start instead of Trik L Start. The Amp L Start is compatible with Lithium charge profile. I'm still surprised they got rid of the battery boost function on the 2020 model. I will have to investigate the charge mate pro this weekend.

I'd be interested in your findings - take a picture when you locate the charge mate.

I'll just carry my Battery Tender with me if we're staying anywhere longer than 2 weeks - I have a little plastic tool box I modified and keep it in so I can keep it outdoors and protected. I also have a small lithium jump starter battery I carry, just in case (previous tow-ed battery died a couple of times so I had to jump it when I got to my destination). I would like the Amp-L-Start type option (Xantrex recommended their Echo-charge unit designed for the lithium batteries), but the warranty issue has me paused at this point. If you go ahead and install one, take some pictures and let us know how it works out.

best,
Dave-oh