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Old 06-16-2020, 03:22 PM   #1
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Lithium LiFePO4 Upgrade - 2020/21 Navion or View

This forum has been very helpful and informative for me both with Lithium Iron (LiFePO4) batteries as well as the trickle charging of the starter battery. After reading various threads and additional research from other forums, manufacturer sites, talking with Winnebago directly and reviewing Winnebago wiring schematics on the Winnebago Owners page, I wanted to contribute what I learned and the work I have completed for the benefit of others that may also pursue aftermarket/after purchase LiFePO4 battery options. BTW, I believe either AGM/Lithium Iron is a must for boondocking any length of time with coaches utilizing a compressor fridge which is not nearly as efficient as propane IMO and as stated in threads on this forum.

A inventory review of what the 2020-21 Navion/View has without the Winnebago Xantrex Lithium battery upgrade:

1) Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 Watt Inverter/Charger (part number 817-2080)
even though the control panel inside the coach only indicates that this is just an inverter (“Freedom X” as printed on the remote controller inside the coach vs “Freedom XC” printed on the inverter controller),
2) ChargeMatePro 40 under the pax seat limiting the max amperage from the chassis alternator to just 40A,
3) Zamp Solar Charge Controller (ZS-30A) above the fridge,
4) Onan Generator (LP or Diesel, doesn't matter, but I have the Diesel version),
5) Shorepower, and
6) 2 Flooded Deep Cycle Napa batteries, the only item that needs to be removed and replaced with LiFePO4 batteries. Battery cables may be needed depending on the pole configuration of the new batteries. I confirmed no other hardware or upgrades were required with Winnebago directly as well as the dealer RV tech lead (Trans West).

The standard flooded batteries can be charged from one of four sources, 1) Solar via the Zamp Solar Charge Controller, 2) Onan Generator by way of the Zantrex Inverter, 3) Shorepower by way of the Zantrex Inverter, and 4) from the chassis alternator by way of the ChargeMatePro 40. The new LiFePO4 batteries will be charged from the same source.

Upgrading from the flooded deep cycle standard house batteries to LiFePO4 requires consideration of the charge source amperage and voltage, referencing the sources above, controlled by three devices;
1) Zamp Solar Charge Controller,
2) ChargeMatePro 40, and
3) Zantrex Freedom XC 2000.
Changing the Zamp Solar Charge Controller (solar power source) from default AGM value to liFePO4 automatically adjusts absorption voltage with no other changes needed (https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...UserManual.pdf). For charge coming thru the Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 (pulling from either shore or generator power), changing the battery type on the controller adjusts the amperage and voltage based on the battery type selected with additional options to fine tune the adjustments for bulk, float, absorption, charge amps and volts, depending on lithium battery specifications from the batteries installed, Inverter/Charger manual here (Xantrex | Power Inverter, Inverter Charger, Battery Charger Manufacturer XC/Freedom XC Series INV-CHG Owners Guide (975-0784-01-01_Rev-B)_ENG.pdf). For charge coming from the chassis alternator, there are no adjustments available on the ChargeMatePro 40; yet the ChargeMatePro 40 protects the house batteries from amperages beyond 40a which helps prevent damage to the house batteries.

Netting out the above, if you purchased the 2020/21 Navion/View with the standard flooded deep cycle house batteries and you want to upgrade to AGM or LiFePO4, all you need to do is drop in the LiFePO4 batteries (may require wire upgrade depending on battery pole configuration) and then change the settings on both the Zantrex Inverter Charger control panel and the Zamp Charge Controller, and done. $1500-$2000 option plus about 2 hours work with basic tools versus the cost of the Winnebago upgrade referenced above, ~$5300 (I honestly didn’t even know that option existed when I bought my Navion).

Here is what I chose and installed:
Although I own the Battle Born 100AH battery ($950) and swear by these things after much abuse and punishment, I opted to try Lion 1300 105AH batteries ($1400 at Costco for two, $750 individually) principally for the cost, but also for the smaller size and a bit lighter (24lbs vs 31lbs times two batteries). I also chose the LiFePO4 over AGM due to total cost of ownership over a longer period of time, I believe it is more economical to go the LiFePO4 route, as well as the difference in weight given the limited Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) I inherited with the coach, 1288lbs according to the sticker inside the pax door.

WRT to the Lion 1300, most of the youtube reviews I watched for the newer 1300 model seemed generally favorable. If the spread in price between the Lion 1300 and BB was less than $150 each and the BBs were more readily availability, I would have opted for the BB again. Note that the Lions are manufactured and assembled in China while the Battle Born batteries are assembled in the US and are UL Listed. Here is the link to the Lion 1300 battery specs, https://support.lionenergy.com/files...l_20191209.pdf Here is a link to BB battery specs, https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...cycle-battery/


Additionally, I installed the AMP-L-Start from LSL products (AMP-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer - Overview Page) choosing this option over the TRK-L-Start because of the ability to adjust the start and stop charge for Lithium house batteries by way of a jumper connection. This install was fairly simple, less than an hour of time. I removed the pax seat and the bracket that allows the seat to rotate (8 bolts) to access the ChargeMate Pro 40. The top pole of the ChargeMatePro connects to the “Starting+” stud on the Amp-L, the bottom pole of the ChargeMatePro connects to the “House+” stud on the Amp-L, and the “GND-“ connected to the large front right bolt inside the seat pedestal, all using the supplied ring terminals but requiring separately purchased 10 gauge wire with each wire about 12” long based on where I mounted the Amp-L on the right rear outside of the pax pedestal near the B pillar, easily accessible by lifting the chair pedestal skirt. I adjusted the jumper as recommended by LSL to the lithium setting after confirming this was correct via email from the lead engineer at LSL.

Additional resources:
Navion/View 24J Chassis Wiring Diagram, https://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/2020/000164549.pdf
ChargeMatePro 40 specs, https://www.mastervolt.com/products/...e-mate-pro-40/

Please let me know if I left anything out, any information is inaccurate, or if you have any additional questions.
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Old 06-16-2020, 04:12 PM   #2
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Thanks for the detail of info. When I was shopping I was looking for a model without the lithium batteries and I planned on doing my own upgrade. But the one unit I wanted happened to have the lithium upgrade. I didn't want to pay the premium for it but needed the other options so I got it. The Lithionics lithium batteries are 125 amp hours each so you already get 50 more amp hours than the battleborns. They also have bluetooth integrated into each battery so you can check all the status of the battery. In my opinion the Lithionics brand is top notch and I would put them above battleborn.

I asked the dealer and winnebago lots of questions regarding what's included in the lithium package but my conclusion was that the people I talked to only had basic knowledge.

I dont see how the charge mate pro only can prevent overcharging of the batteries. I do have a separate xantrex combiner selenoid in the battery bay. Did the stock set up have that? I believe that is what regulates the charging after the charge mate pro.
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Old 06-16-2020, 04:55 PM   #3
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Curious - any idea how long you can run your fridge (with that being the only thing turned on) with those batteries?
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Old 06-16-2020, 04:56 PM   #4
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@crah, The bluetooth option is awesome with the batteries. That said, I think Zantrex Freedom XC 2000 has an app that allows seeing the battery SOC, load, etc but need to verify (coach is in storage but out tomorrow). I agree that 50 additional amp hours is respectable advantage to others on the market. Had I known about the Winnebago LiFePO4 option, I might have pulled the trigger despite the expense. Power is king when boondocking, my principle camping mode.
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Old 06-16-2020, 04:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmarcian View Post
Curious - any idea how long you can run your fridge (with that being the only thing turned on) with those batteries?
I have a trip boondocking this weekend, first trip since the upgrade and will report results. Before the upgrade, I had to run the generator about three hours per day to keep the battery fully charged. I did have other loads, but not as significant as the compressor fridge.
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:05 PM   #6
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Depends on ambient temps. If you have no solar or other charge source, you can drain these in 3-4 days. I have 400 watts of solar and in the sunny southwest it charges completely each day.
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozon8r View Post
@crah, The bluetooth option is awesome with the batteries. That said, I think Zantrex Freedom XC 2000 has an app that allows seeing the battery SOC, load, etc but need to verify (coach is in storage but out tomorrow). I agree that 50 additional amp hours is respectable advantage to others on the market. Had I known about the Winnebago LiFePO4 option, I might have pulled the trigger despite the expense. Power is king when boondocking, my principle camping mode.
The Lithionics battery bluetooth menu has batt temp, BMS temp, Amps in/out and several other features. Watch you freedom XC. My fan Likes to run all the time when on shore power or inverter on with no load. Even in cool temp. I have to call xantrex to find out what is causing that.
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:15 PM   #8
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That would be great. It is an important issue for me which is why I got the Lithiumís. The dealer sales people know nothing about them so I spoke with the Florida Winnebago rep. He said 22 -24 hours which seemed too low to me. I have 200 watt solar. If I can get 48 hours I will be happy. I assume just the fridge on and the inverter off is the most efficient. Another complaint is my refrigerator does not have an on/off switch anywhere. I notice the new ones have controls, I assume including on/off switch, at the top on the outside. I must have gotten one of the few that doesnít have that feature. When my batteries are turned on, my fridge is too. I guess I can locate the fuse but that is a PIA.
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Old 06-16-2020, 05:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crah View Post
I dont see how the charge mate pro only can prevent overcharging of the batteries. I do have a separate xantrex combiner selenoid in the battery bay. Did the stock set up have that? I believe that is what regulates the charging after the charge mate pro.
The ChargeMatePro 40 limits amperage to 40a while the battery BMS prevents overcharging. I confirmed with Lion Energy. The stock configured Navion/View does not include the Solenoid as that solenoid is part of the Lithium package you have (confirmed with the chassis drawings and Winnebago customer service). That piece of info scared me into thinking I need to install a charge regulatory like a Redarc BCDC like I have on my 2019 4runner charging the BB100ah house battery. After researching the ChargeMatePro on amp limits and the Lion BMS regarding overcharging, confirming with both Winnebago and Dealer RV tech (struck me as very knowledgeable), I moved forward just swapping the batteries.
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Old 06-25-2020, 09:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmarcian View Post
That would be great. It is an important issue for me which is why I got the Lithiumís. The dealer sales people know nothing about them so I spoke with the Florida Winnebago rep. He said 22 -24 hours which seemed too low to me. I have 200 watt solar. If I can get 48 hours I will be happy. I assume just the fridge on and the inverter off is the most efficient. Another complaint is my refrigerator does not have an on/off switch anywhere. I notice the new ones have controls, I assume including on/off switch, at the top on the outside. I must have gotten one of the few that doesnít have that feature. When my batteries are turned on, my fridge is too. I guess I can locate the fuse but that is a PIA.
I can not be sure there is an exact 1:1 comparison here, but I have a 2018 Fuse with a compressor refrigerator, 2 100 AH Lithium batteries (from BB) and a Viltron Battery Monitor system and I have some information about how much power is needed to run our RV with just the fridge working. It depends, of course, on how hot the day but my usage has shown that I need between 80 and 110 amp hours of power in a 24 day period if I only run the fridge and, of course, the other basic electronics in the RV.

I have 3 100 watt panels and here in Arizona I typically can get at least 50-60 AH of power unless the sky is completely covered with clouds, and as much as 120 AH if it is clear and summer (with the sun high in the sky). Less if we camp in the shade and less in the Winter, perhaps by as much as 40%.

Given those figures I can generally boondock for 2-3 days before I have a power issue. If it is clear I can count on almost fully recharging the batteries just on solar, but we don't boondock at any single location for more than 2 days since that is enough for us to relax and be ready to move someplace else.

One other comment. Since we installed the Lithium batteries I have felt much happier about using the 1000 watt inverter and we now do a lot more than just run the fridge. My wife uses her electric tea kettle and the toaster and runs fans if it is a warm day. Of course this decreases the time we can boondock but it makes the time more pleasant. We just got back from a trip to Flagstaff where we were boondocking to get out of the heat and we camped at about 10 am in the shade with the batteries at 84%. We used the electric tea kettle, the toaster and multiple fans (it was hot) and the next morning we were at 59%, so 25% usage for the camping day, and that is with temperatures in the high 80s and low 90s during the day and down into the high 50s at night, and the freezer stayed at about 0 degrees F during that time. You would do better, of course, if you had 250AH of power instead of only 200 AH.

Hope this is of some help.
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Old 06-25-2020, 06:20 PM   #11
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for those looking to add this option to a new build costing 5K you have to remember to take off your negotiated discount where in my case was a hair over 30% thus costing me only $3,500.00. A no brainer.

Also note when I ordered mine last Sep Winnebago offered a sale on factory levelers at $2,500.00 thus my price was like $1,750.00. Which I only found out through the View facebook group. It pays to keep and eye on these groups.

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Old 06-26-2020, 09:00 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKDaniels View Post
for those looking to add this option to a new build costing 5K you have to remember to take off your negotiated discount where in my case was a hair over 30% thus costing me only $3,500.00. A no brainer.

Also note when I ordered mine last Sep Winnebago offered a sale on factory levelers at $2,500.00 thus my price was like $1,750.00. Which I only found out through the View facebook group. It pays to keep and eye on these groups.

Winnebago Dan 20J
Perhaps, but I am not so sure there is a discount to added options when buying a new RV.

First, if the option does not already exist on the RV it needs to be added by the dealer and I don't think they discount parts and dealer servicing when buying a new RV.

Second, if the dealer can not install the option you then have to special order your RV and the local dealer here in the Phoenix area said that they do not discount special orders the same way they do existing units.

Lastly, I am not sure that they discount any options added to the RV. My guess (and it is only a guess) is that they discount the base unit and fully charge for the options.

That does not mean that I don't think that the Lithium option is worth the added cost. I do. Only that I don't think there is any 30% discount on it.
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Old 06-30-2020, 07:38 AM   #13
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We wanted to have lithium batteries when we picked up our 2021 View several weeks ago.

Due to the COVID manufacturing shutdowns, our dealer didn't have the parts in stock, so it could be weeks (or longer) before they'd be able to do the install.

So we had them give us a written quote for the price, with a several month window for us to get back to the RV dealer to do the installation, providing protection from any price increases.

While the base vehicle had discounts, the options are labor and parts, and don't appear to be discountable (and where dealers typically make $$$).
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Old 06-30-2020, 09:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rprochnow View Post
We wanted to have lithium batteries when we picked up our 2021 View several weeks ago.

Due to the COVID manufacturing shutdowns, our dealer didn't have the parts in stock, so it could be weeks (or longer) before they'd be able to do the install.

So we had them give us a written quote for the price, with a several month window for us to get back to the RV dealer to do the installation, providing protection from any price increases.

While the base vehicle had discounts, the options are labor and parts, and don't appear to be discountable (and where dealers typically make $$$).
that's because I had mine ordered from the factory that came with the lithium batteries and factory levelers. Thus my discount came off the MSP where I can see if you have the dealer swap out the batteries you would not get a discount. There are not that many options now a days for Winnebago makes standard what used to be upgrades. If a dealer gives you a negotiated discount whatever the price is 25-30% and you don't get that discount off the sticker prince you need to find another dealer to work with.
My sales rep had the ability to go oline to Winnebago as a dealer and price out and see the MSP and Dealer price on everything.

Now I added a lot of extras that the Dealer installed that didn't get the discout like two solar panels a couple of antennas borg valve stems tire minder. And the also helped me out when they could like before Winnebago came out with the discount I had going to have then send it to HWH to have levelers istalled and I was going to get them at 1 thousand off which was the Dealers price something like 4K instead of 5K. So finding an honest reliable dealer is worth a drive.

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Old 10-06-2020, 01:50 AM   #15
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Ozon8R, thanks for the write up.

Coincidentally, five days ago we got a 2021 D and I happened to have some Lion Energy batteries on hand so I swapped out the Napas.

Everything was fine but the most we could get out of the Charge Mate Pro was 25 amps. By jumping the connection, we could get about 130 amps so it looks like the Charge Mate was limiting the amperage to far below the 40 amps I expected.

I put two of the Lion Energy batteries under the steps but I think I'll probably move them into the hatch right behind the steps, where there's room for several more.
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Old 10-06-2020, 08:28 AM   #16
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I just noticed this thread due to the recent post. Anyone considering adding lithium batteries particularly if they want to power their DC fridge while dry camping, should read this. Lots of great information.

Three takeaways:

A typical DC fridge requires 100 amp hours of DC power in a day.

The new View/Navion comes with a Victron Chargemate Pro 40 BMS but one poster said it only supplied 25A, not its rated 40. A question for ozon85, does your Chargemate supply 40A?

The new View/Navion as delivered with FLA batteries can be easily upgraded to use LiOn batteries which are a drop in replacement for the FLAs. You need to change the charging parameters on the Xantrex and Zamp to Li.

David
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Old 10-06-2020, 08:38 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
I just noticed this thread due to the recent post. Anyone considering adding lithium batteries particularly if they want to power their DC fridge while dry camping, should read this. Lots of great information.

Three takeaways:

A typical DC fridge requires 100 amp hours of DC power in a day.

The new View/Navion comes with a Victron Chargemate Pro 40 BMS but one poster said it only supplied 25A, not its rated 40. A question for ozon85, does your Chargemate supply 40A?

The new View/Navion as delivered with FLA batteries can be easily upgraded to use LiOn batteries which are a drop in replacement for the FLAs. You need to change the charging parameters on the Xantrex and Zamp to Li.

David
You also need to have some way to limit the alternator current to the Lion batteries to protect the alternator from producing too much current for too long a time. If the RV comes with standard wet cell batteries it does not come with either a BIM or a DC-DC charger and one of those will have to be added.

The Winnebago Lithium Upgrade package comes with a BIM of some sort so it needs no additional upgrade but swapping out FLA batteries for Lion will require the added item.
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Old 10-06-2020, 09:40 AM   #18
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AJMike:

According to the OP the new View/Navion comes with a Victron Chargemate Pro 40 which limits alternator current to 40 amps to the batteries. Should work perfectly with Li batteries.

My understanding is that the Sprinter alternator can handle 40 amps just fine as well as Ford chassis alternators. But if I were to do this I would check the alternator case temps after 15 minutes or so of charging at that rate. Ideally you should keep alternator case temps down to 200 F.

David

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Old 10-06-2020, 09:58 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
AJMike:

According to the OP the new View/Navion comes with a Victron Chargemate Pro 40 which limits alternator current to 40 amps to the batteries. Should work perfectly with Li batteries.

My understanding is that the Sprinter alternator can handle 40 amps just fine as well as Ford chassis alternators. But if I were to do this I would check the alternator case temps after 15 minutes or so of charging at that rate. Ideally you should keep alternator case temps down to 200 F.

David

David
Thanks for the correction. I read the post but I thought the Chargemate Pro was a sort of solar controller. Now the limit off 40 amps makes more sense.

I re-read the original post and it seems clear what the Chargemate Pro is, so I guess I did not read it carefully the first time. That should teach me a lesson ...
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Old 10-13-2020, 04:25 PM   #20
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The confusing Charge Mate Pro is made by Voltmaster. I wish is were made by Victron.

Still trying to get it figured out. Not only does it limit current to 25 amps (instead of the stated 40) it also lowers voltage from over 14 to around 13.5.

We switched the Charge Mate 40 out for a Charge Mate Pro 90, which will deliver a bit over 60 amps. Getting closer, but I was pleased to see that the combination of the Charge Mate Pro (for charging from the alternator) combines with charging from the generator to deliver about 140 amps.

Some have suggested a bypass switch to let the alternator charge the batteries directly for short periods of time. It sure is nice being able to charge the batteries quickly, but I've got a lot to learn before I start creating my own recipes!
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