Lithium LiFePO4 Upgrade - 2020/21 Navion or View

[DavidM]

Until I get our new MH that is on order and figure out what is what, this is somewhat intelligent speculation, so here goes:

Many motorhomes already have a battery isolation manager (BIM) in the form of solenoid/relays (a BIRD, which may stand for Battery Isolation Relay Device????) or something similar that is solenoid/relay based. So you probably don't need the Isolation part of the Charge Mate device. But you do need the current limiting capability if you have lithium batteries.

There are other such devices, they are typically B2B chargers (battery to battery chargers- getting tired of translating acronyms) that take a 13.5 or so alternator voltage and drop it or increase it to meet its current limiting specification and the needs of your lithium batteries.

Renogy and Redarc are two manufacturers. These should limit the current and since they increase or decrease the voltage as required you shouldn't have the voltage drop problem you have with the Victron Charge Mate.

So consider adding one of these between the chassis alternator output to the Bird to limit current and adjust voltages as required for lithium batteries.

David

[rprochnow]

You do want to be careful not to exceed the maximum charging spec for the lithium batteries - they can generate a lot of heat when charging - and charging with too much current could be a safety hazard.

[37NG]

Originally Posted by ozon8r

This forum has been very helpful and informative for me both with Lithium Iron (LiFePO4) batteries as well as the trickle charging of the starter battery. After reading various threads and additional research from other forums, manufacturer sites, talking with Winnebago directly and reviewing Winnebago wiring schematics on the Winnebago Owners page, I wanted to contribute what I learned and the work I have completed for the benefit of others that may also pursue aftermarket/after purchase LiFePO4 battery options. BTW, I believe either AGM/Lithium Iron is a must for boondocking any length of time with coaches utilizing a compressor fridge which is not nearly as efficient as propane IMO and as stated in threads on this forum.

A inventory review of what the 2020-21 Navion/View has without the Winnebago Xantrex Lithium battery upgrade:

1) Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 Watt Inverter/Charger (part number 817-2080)
even though the control panel inside the coach only indicates that this is just an inverter (“Freedom X” as printed on the remote controller inside the coach vs “Freedom XC” printed on the inverter controller),
2) ChargeMatePro 40 under the pax seat limiting the max amperage from the chassis alternator to just 40A,
3) Zamp Solar Charge Controller (ZS-30A) above the fridge,
4) Onan Generator (LP or Diesel, doesn't matter, but I have the Diesel version),
5) Shorepower, and
6) 2 Flooded Deep Cycle Napa batteries, the only item that needs to be removed and replaced with LiFePO4 batteries. Battery cables may be needed depending on the pole configuration of the new batteries. I confirmed no other hardware or upgrades were required with Winnebago directly as well as the dealer RV tech lead (Trans West).

The standard flooded batteries can be charged from one of four sources, 1) Solar via the Zamp Solar Charge Controller, 2) Onan Generator by way of the Zantrex Inverter, 3) Shorepower by way of the Zantrex Inverter, and 4) from the chassis alternator by way of the ChargeMatePro 40. The new LiFePO4 batteries will be charged from the same source.

Upgrading from the flooded deep cycle standard house batteries to LiFePO4 requires consideration of the charge source amperage and voltage, referencing the sources above, controlled by three devices;
1) Zamp Solar Charge Controller,
2) ChargeMatePro 40, and
3) Zantrex Freedom XC 2000.
Changing the Zamp Solar Charge Controller (solar power source) from default AGM value to liFePO4 automatically adjusts absorption voltage with no other changes needed (https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...UserManual.pdf). For charge coming thru the Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 (pulling from either shore or generator power), changing the battery type on the controller adjusts the amperage and voltage based on the battery type selected with additional options to fine tune the adjustments for bulk, float, absorption, charge amps and volts, depending on lithium battery specifications from the batteries installed, Inverter/Charger manual here (Xantrex | Power Inverter, Inverter Charger, Battery Charger Manufacturer XC/Freedom XC Series INV-CHG Owners Guide (975-0784-01-01_Rev-B)_ENG.pdf). For charge coming from the chassis alternator, there are no adjustments available on the ChargeMatePro 40; yet the ChargeMatePro 40 protects the house batteries from amperages beyond 40a which helps prevent damage to the house batteries.

Netting out the above, if you purchased the 2020/21 Navion/View with the standard flooded deep cycle house batteries and you want to upgrade to AGM or LiFePO4, all you need to do is drop in the LiFePO4 batteries (may require wire upgrade depending on battery pole configuration) and then change the settings on both the Zantrex Inverter Charger control panel and the Zamp Charge Controller, and done. $1500-$2000 option plus about 2 hours work with basic tools versus the cost of the Winnebago upgrade referenced above, ~$5300 (I honestly didn’t even know that option existed when I bought my Navion).

Here is what I chose and installed:
Although I own the Battle Born 100AH battery ($950) and swear by these things after much abuse and punishment, I opted to try Lion 1300 105AH batteries ($1400 at Costco for two, $750 individually) principally for the cost, but also for the smaller size and a bit lighter (24lbs vs 31lbs times two batteries). I also chose the LiFePO4 over AGM due to total cost of ownership over a longer period of time, I believe it is more economical to go the LiFePO4 route, as well as the difference in weight given the limited Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) I inherited with the coach, 1288lbs according to the sticker inside the pax door.

WRT to the Lion 1300, most of the youtube reviews I watched for the newer 1300 model seemed generally favorable. If the spread in price between the Lion 1300 and BB was less than $150 each and the BBs were more readily availability, I would have opted for the BB again. Note that the Lions are manufactured and assembled in China while the Battle Born batteries are assembled in the US and are UL Listed. Here is the link to the Lion 1300 battery specs, https://support.lionenergy.com/files...l_20191209.pdf Here is a link to BB battery specs, https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...cycle-battery/


Additionally, I installed the AMP-L-Start from LSL products (AMP-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer - Overview Page) choosing this option over the TRK-L-Start because of the ability to adjust the start and stop charge for Lithium house batteries by way of a jumper connection. This install was fairly simple, less than an hour of time. I removed the pax seat and the bracket that allows the seat to rotate (8 bolts) to access the ChargeMate Pro 40. The top pole of the ChargeMatePro connects to the “Starting+” stud on the Amp-L, the bottom pole of the ChargeMatePro connects to the “House+” stud on the Amp-L, and the “GND-“ connected to the large front right bolt inside the seat pedestal, all using the supplied ring terminals but requiring separately purchased 10 gauge wire with each wire about 12” long based on where I mounted the Amp-L on the right rear outside of the pax pedestal near the B pillar, easily accessible by lifting the chair pedestal skirt. I adjusted the jumper as recommended by LSL to the lithium setting after confirming this was correct via email from the lead engineer at LSL.

Additional resources:
Navion/View 24J Chassis Wiring Diagram, https://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/2020/000164549.pdf
ChargeMatePro 40 specs, https://www.mastervolt.com/products/...e-mate-pro-40/

Please let me know if I left anything out, any information is inaccurate, or if you have any additional questions.

Costco doesn’t show these or any other Lithium Ion RV battery in their system or online?

[rprochnow]

Note that Winnebago uses a different battery box for the Lithionics batteries (which provide 25% more power than the BattleBorn batteries).

That box was out of stock when we purchased our RV - which is why we had to wait a month before Lichtsinn could do the lithium upgrade.

Also note there is a difference in how the batteries are connected. The stock batteries are 6V, and wired in series. The lithium batteries are 12V and wired in parallel.

Depending upon the original battery cables, it may be necessary to purchase some additional cables to support the different wiring - plus it may be preferred to have those cables all the same length.

[banjobiotic]

I was looking at another thread titled "View/Navion Lithium Smart Battery Option" and there is a post by Crah showing a picture of a xantrex combiner solenoid controller (model 881-0030-12) in the battery box with the lithionics batteries. The gist of this thread (Lithium LiFePO4 Upgrade - 2020/21 Navion or View) seems to be that lithium is a drop in replacement on the 2020/21 View/Navions, but if that is the case then what is the xantrex combiner solenoid controller and is it necessary? The lithionics batteries with bluetooth and built in BMS can be purchased for $1,449.00 each and it would be nice to save the $2000.00 additional that the dealer upgrade would cost (which I guess includes a insulated battery box and the combiner solenoid controller), but that xantrex combiner solenoid controller is my big question mark.


Also did anyone figure out why the fan on the xantrex inverter/charger runs so much? Mine pretty much runs all the time when connected to shore power, doesn't seem to matter if the inverter is on or not.

[rprochnow]

It's my understanding that the batteries are a drop-in replacement, but that a new battery box is needed, and it's possible new cables will also be needed to change from having the batteries wired in series to parallel (since the lithium batteries are 12V and the stock batteries are 6V).

Don't believe any other hardware charges were made - there were some settings changes on the inverter and solar controller.

Recommend contacting Winnebago - they may be able to provide you the parts list of what's needed to change from stock batteries to the Lithionics.

Though, if you do it yourself and you have any electrical problems, you've probably voided the Winnebago warranty...

[Elkman]

"The stock batteries are 6V, and wired in series. The lithium batteries are 12V and wired in parallel."


If that is true then it was a dumb move on the part of Winnebago to do this for an RV. If one cell on the 6V battery fails then the second battery will be far more impacted than with two 12V batteries wired in parallel. On a golf cart or a boat it makes sense to keep the weight down and go with two smaller and lighter 6V batteries than a 12V one but this does not apply to a motorhome.



I plan to buy the lithium batteries from Relion as they have a special low temperature version that uses the charging current to keep the battery warmer and so charge faster in cold weather.
With AGM batteries a lot of the output from a generator is wasted as it puts out more than the batteries can take in. Curious as to the difference with the lithium batteries that in theory can be charged much faster.

[rprochnow]

Not sure where I read about the 6V batteries.

Just double checked our View documentation - and the original batteries should have been 12V.

My bad...

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by Elkman

"The stock batteries are 6V, and wired in series. The lithium batteries are 12V and wired in parallel."


If that is true then it was a dumb move on the part of Winnebago to do this for an RV.

6v GC2 batteries are an excellent configuration for FLA batteries, and quite common for people wanting more Ah capacity. Trojan T-105's are one of the most common. Reliability is not really a problem, as they are built like tanks.

[Elkman]

I received a build sheet for everything installed on our 2021 Navion and it does not show a Charge Mate. I will need to check with the dealer about upgrading this in the next several days before we pick up the RV.

Does anyone know the inside dimensions for the battery compartment? My understanding is that the factory puts in two Group 31 AGM batteries. My plan is to replace them with two Group 31 lithium batteries to have 250 Ah in total. Most of the 100 Ah lithium batteries seem to be Group 27 size ones.

I do wish that the fridge had been dual fuel and would run on LPG as well as DC power. The one advantage of the compressor fridge is that the RV can be as much as 10 degrees off level and still operate.

[DavidM]

Originally Posted by Elkman

The one advantage of the compressor fridge is that the RV can be as much as 10 degrees off level and still operate.

Let us know how sleeping 10 degrees out of level works out for you .

David

[Elkman]

My prior RV had a LP fridge and it would keep shutting off. Took awhile to get out the digital level and see that the vehicle was at 5 degrees and so the fridge kept shutting itself off. At campsights I used blocks of wood to elevate the wheels as needed to get the camper level enough for the fridge to operate.

[VannaView]

Originally Posted by Elkman

I received a build sheet for everything installed on our 2021 Navion and it does not show a Charge Mate. I will need to check with the dealer about upgrading this in the next several days before we pick up the RV.

Does anyone know the inside dimensions for the battery compartment? My understanding is that the factory puts in two Group 31 AGM batteries. My plan is to replace them with two Group 31 lithium batteries to have 250 Ah in total. Most of the 100 Ah lithium batteries seem to be Group 27 size ones.

I do wish that the fridge had been dual fuel and would run on LPG as well as DC power. The one advantage of the compressor fridge is that the RV can be as much as 10 degrees off level and still operate.

More information on the battery box on a 2020 View: there is a lip around the battery box that is 27”x8”. The inside dimensions of the box are 28 ½” x 9 ½” x 13 ¼” deep.

P.S. Lithionics now makes a 315aH LIFEPO4 drop-in battery. Lots of $$, but a simple upgrade. Here’s the link: https://lithionicsbattery.com/produc...7-gtx-battery/

[rprochnow]

The Lithionics Group 31 battery is 125Ah - and is what Winnebago installs at the factory for View/Navion. The larger capacity batteries are a different form factor, which may or may not work in the View/Navion battery box.

When Lichtsinn performed our lithium upgrade from the AGM batteries, they ordered a replacement battery box for the Lithionics batteries, evidently there was a difference between the AGM and lithium batteries, requiring a different battery box.

We had to wait an extra month until the battery box was in stock at the factory before they could do the lithium upgrade after we purchased our View in June.

[Elkman]

I am in the process of changing out the Winnebago branded AGM batteries for Lithionics ones in my 2021 Navion. The AGM batteries are 12.75 x 6.75 x 8.75 high and the Lithionics lithium are 12.5 x 6.5 x 8.5 high, so no problem with the swap.

I found on my Navion that the battery tray has a base that is 26.75 x 8 inches but I am going to use a 29" x 8.5" x 1/4" piece of HDPE on top of the metal tray and under the batteries. The battery compartment is open to the outside and I already have road gravel inside. I will be cutting blocks of polystyrene insulation to insert around the batteries. This will help in cold weather and it will keep water and dirt from the road out of the compartment as well.

As a side note the electrical connection cable for the steps' motor was not wrapped and it was rubbing on the edge of the battery platform plate. I wrapped vinyl tape around the connector and moved it to where it would not rub on the steel plate. I had a similar unprotected connector on my Chevy pickup and after a few years of road dirt and moisture it needed to be replaced and the part cost me $400 and $300 in labor to have the new connector installed.

[ahamor01]

Here is a picture of the factory lithium battery installation. Notice all the fuse holders which has to be removed to allow the batteries to be replaced. The battery compartment is un-insulated and the cable entrances on both end are open to the elements.
Since lithium batteries can not be charged below freezing temperatures, the 2021 factory lithium equipped View is not suitable for winter camping.

[banjobiotic]

Something that nobody seems to be mentioning that is part of the Winnebago factory installation for the lithionics batteries is a “Xantrex combiner solenoid controller”. Does anyone know what that part is for and why most folks on this thread don’t seem to think it’s necessary for the DIY lithium upgrade?

[Elkman]

The fuse holder does not need to be removed. There is two inches between the batteries and the interior side of the compartment and so once the two hold downs are removed the batteries can slide forward two inches and be removed from the compartment. The FLAT batteries from the factory are 12,75 x 7.75 x 8.75 and the Lithionics lithium battery is 12.5" x 6.5" x 8.5"h.

The concern is with the unfinished battery compartment in the Navion that is open to the elements and the one on my 2021 model quickly picked up road grease and sand from the road with the drive from the dealer to my house. I am adding a HDPE bottom and polystrene foam insulation to the lower sections of the sides to protect the batteries in the compartment.

Per Lithionics: the battery should be stored and installed in a clean, cool and dry place, keeping water, oil, and dirt away from the battery. If any of these materials can accumulate on the top surface of the battery, current leakage can occur, resulting in self-discharge and possible short circuits. Clearly the folks at Winnebago decided not to take these precautions.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by banjobiotic

Something that nobody seems to be mentioning that is part of the Winnebago factory installation for the lithionics batteries is a “Xantrex combiner solenoid controller”. Does anyone know what that part is for and why most folks on this thread don’t seem to think it’s necessary for the DIY lithium upgrade?

According to a Google Search the Xantrex Combiner Solenoid Controller works like a standard BIM or BIRD relay to charge both House and Chassis batteries:

The Battery Combiner will combine the chassis and house battery packs when the following conditions are met:

Chassis battery > 14V
House battery > 11.5V
House battery <1 4V

A great many modern Winnebago RVs (but not all) come with this style relay as standard equipment in non-lithium equipped RVs. Which is probably why not everyone feels the need to include this item.

[Elkman]

The solenoid is used to prevent the house systems from drawing down the chassis batteries. Precision Circuits makes a lithium specific BIM designed to be used with lithium house batteries and FLAT or AGM chassis batteries.

One nice aspect of the new Xanrex 2080 inverter/charger is that when configured for lithium phosphate batteries it will provide up to 100 amps of charging which is safe to do and can reduce charging time by two-thirds or more (at least with shore power).

I can only guess but I expect that faster charging is not going to occur with the Onan generator that puts our 26 amps.