RV 2 Way Main Water Pump Switch? - Page 4

Ray,IN · 09-12-2023, 05:25 PM

If you simply use a lighted switch in the bathroom, wired to the main switch terminals, or to the pump, whichever is closer, you'll have 2 independent switches. Daisy-chained, so to speak. It's really not complicated..Then you don't have to buy a latching relay.
When the main switch is off, the 2nd switch is exactly like the main with longer wires, and since you use a lighted switch there is no confusion, as both switches have an on light.

l1v3fr33ord1 · 09-12-2023, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkoldman

My hope is that the 2nd switch will always allow me to turn it on if it is off, but if I have to make sure both are ON; then I may have same issue that I have now ( which is forgetting to make sure the Wall switch is on?

I believe the "solution" will work exactly as you want it to: If the pump is off, both LEDs will be unlit, and flipping either of the switches will turn the pump on and light both of the LEDs. Similarly, if the LEDs are on (indicating the pump is on), flipping either of the two switches will turn the pump off and extinguish the LEDs.

My coach worked this way. When I winterized I took advantage of having a water pump switch in both the wet bay and the (interior) hallway.

I'm still thinking through the "Winnebago way" vs. the "Monaco way" of doing two-way switching. I almost always want to do things the way the manufacturer would have intended, but also don't want to pass up any advantages that may arise from a different manufacturer's solution. Comparing helps me learn the "why" better, too.

Morich · 09-12-2023, 06:09 PM

I'm also just standing back and reading as I don't have the drawing he does, so we would have to start with getting straight what is there now and also what we wanted in the end. Having the drawing would be where we would have to start guessing so no need to do that !

I probably added too much confusion on what you were seeing on the voltages when thinking it went away when you turned the switch on!

dkoldman · 09-12-2023, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1

I believe the "solution" will work exactly as you want it to: If the pump is off, both LEDs will be unlit, and flipping either of the switches will turn the pump on and light both of the LEDs. Similarly, if the LEDs are on (indicating the pump is on), flipping either of the two switches will turn the pump off and extinguish the LEDs.

My coach worked this way. When I winterized I took advantage of having a water pump switch in both the wet bay and the (interior) hallway.

I'm still thinking through the "Winnebago way" vs. the "Monaco way" of doing two-way switching. I almost always want to do things the way the manufacturer would have intended, but also don't want to pass up any advantages that may arise from a different manufacturer's solution. Comparing helps me learn the "why" better, too.

Sounds good, I will wait. It may take me a tad to grasp the recommendation. I assume the Monaco way has LEDs built into the switch whereas on my coach the Switch's LED is separate. The new 2nd switch I was looking at has separate connections, so I don't won't to confuse matters.

Ideally I can have new male/female connectors that allow me to not cut any of the existing so I can always wire it back to OEM with no issues.

Don't forget I will have a 12v+ and a ground at the dimmer/light switch that is already in the bathroom plus the outbound 12v+ from the 15 pin connector that goes to the switch. Similar for ground .

dkoldman · 09-12-2023, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

I'm also just standing back and reading as I don't have the drawing he does, so we would have to start with getting straight what is there now and also what we wanted in the end. Having the drawing would be where we would have to start guessing so no need to do that !

I probably added too much confusion on what you were seeing on the voltages when thinking it went away when you turned the switch on!

When / if I start wiring standing back sounds like a good idea, being in Austin might not be far enough away

I think when I get the wiring layout clear and know exactly which wire and how to connect, I may be able to test wire to verify it works as expected before cutting a hole in the wall for new switch. The LED or light up tend to push my electrical thinking, but I do believe to do what I am wanting the LED will be critical.

But yes we should give L1v3 all the time he needs because he has drawings and the wherewithall that is over my pay-grade. Plus he has this incredible swagger that he can even help me to wire this up and doing so the Winnebago Way

Morich · 09-12-2023, 08:16 PM

Sometimes forum discussions remind me of some of my early scout campouts?

Lots of folks with many different ideas wanting to help but just keeping the kids out of the fire was about all we got done!

dkoldman · 09-12-2023, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

If you simply use a lighted switch in the bathroom, wired to the main switch terminals, or to the pump, whichever is closer, you'll have 2 independent switches. Daisy-chained, so to speak. It's really not complicated..Then you don't have to buy a latching relay.
When the main switch is off, the 2nd switch is exactly like the main with longer wires, and since you use a lighted switch there is no confusion, as both switches have an on light.

Not complicated if you know what you are doing. Washing a car can be science for those that wish to get the details right. Every man got to know his limitation.

With that said, the below is what I have, but likely not the Winnebago way and I would still have to figure where to cut wires and connectors etc. It is why I will wait on l1v3

For the switch I am looking at, I will need a new ground wire ( black) and two new red wires to tap into JA & JS. It should work having the new switch backlights dark ( not lit) when pump is OFF but Blue (lit up) when either switch is on. The Wall Panel switch remain as it is with Red LED

dkoldman · 09-14-2023, 06:36 PM

Update:

Still working with L1v3 but here is where I am. The below is my 4th version of the drawing and I think this is it. I ordered the Blue Backlight Switch from Amazon along with a back plate that I may or may not need. I ordered to have just in case. I also decided to go with T Splice connectors because I see where WBGO or WBGO dealer has used 3 of the Blue colored T Splice connections. This will prevent me from having to cut any wires or make Y splitters. The switch comes with the jumper and wiring needed so all I will need is the male ends to plug into the wiring. I won't really know the sizes until I get the switch which is likely next week.

Let me know of any flaws with my logic or diagram. I am easy going. I just like results and don't really care how I get them.

Thanks All

dkoldman · 09-14-2023, 07:48 PM

I tweaked a few things.

Ray,IN · 09-14-2023, 08:00 PM

Yep, your drawing are like I suggested. Tie into the hot wire on each side of the existing switch, with a lighted new switch.

l1v3fr33ord1 · 09-14-2023, 08:37 PM

dkoldman-

Hmm... With the "parallel switch" design (post #68), the bath LED tracks the switch state, not the pump state.

Code:

Hall    Bath    Hall LED    Bath LED    Pump
OFF     OFF     OFF         OFF         OFF
OFF     ON      ON          ON          ON
ON      OFF     ON          OFF         ON
ON      ON      ON          ON          ON

In the design Winnebago uses (post #57), both LEDs track the pump state.

Code:

Hall    Bath    Hall LED    Bath LED    Pump
UP      UP      ON          ON          ON
UP      DOWN    OFF         OFF         OFF
DOWN    UP      OFF         OFF         OFF
DOWN    DOWN    ON          ON          ON

That said, you are on your way to a solution, and as they say: "The proof of the pudding is in the tasting!"

I did complete the design of an plug-and-play adapter, one that follows the Winnebago circuit design and would eliminate splices in the Winnebago wiring. I've attached it below.

Finally, the Winnebago part number for a second switch they installed in the wet bay of some coaches is 108357-15-000. My research says that this is Carling switch, model number VDD1160B-0. I believe a Carling VDD1A60B or a V4D1A60B could substitute for the VDD1160B-0. Switch wiring would be per post #57.

dkoldman · 09-14-2023, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1

dkoldman-

Hmm... With the "parallel switch" design (post #68), the bath LED tracks the switch state, not the pump state.

Code:

Hall    Bath    Hall LED    Bath LED    Pump
OFF     OFF     OFF         OFF         OFF
OFF     ON      ON          ON          ON
ON      OFF     ON          OFF         ON
ON      ON      ON          ON          ON

In the design Winnebago uses (post #57), both LEDs track the pump state.

Code:

Hall    Bath    Hall LED    Bath LED    Pump
UP      UP      ON          ON          ON
UP      DOWN    OFF         OFF         OFF
DOWN    UP      OFF         OFF         OFF
DOWN    DOWN    ON          ON          ON

That said, you are on your way to a solution, and as they say: "The proof of the pudding is in the tasting!"

I did complete the design of an plug-and-play adapter, one that follows the Winnebago circuit design and would eliminate splices in the Winnebago wiring. I've attached it below.

Finally, the Winnebago part number for a second switch they installed in the wet bay of some coaches is 108357-15-000. My research says that this is Carling switch, model number VDD1160B-0. I believe a Carling VDD1A60B or a V4D1A60B could substitute for the VDD1160B-0. Switch wiring would be per post #57.

This is all clear, but I am fuzzy about the WBGO / Carling switch? WBGO makes it very hard to find a replacement part with their part numbers. I have searched google but get all kinds of things and from sellers that I am not too familiar with. I am not an electrician so it is over my pay grade. Is there something about the Carling switch that the Blue Backlit switch doesn't do for why it will not work? Originally I was looking at simple switch with red led inside; but in a bath situation now that I have seen one, a backlit switch that says water pump makes it really simple for the user.

I see in your new diagram with the adapter, you make use of the Red/white wire coming out of the TOP of existing switch. Can adapter work with the Blue Back Lit Switch?

Also, on scenario where in drawing where my 2nd switch (Blue backlit) would not lite up when the hall switch is on, can you tell me why wire JS (T9) would not energize the bath LED?

I thought I had the 2nd switch wired such that if it ON, it energize JS (T9) with assumption Hall switch is off, for same reason the Hall light would light up, I assumed ( I don't really know) that is Hall light was ON, it would backfeed the power to the bath LED to light up.

This is really good stuff. I got some parts on order, but I ain't married to anything. Your last drawing with the adapter and no T Tap splicing would be my preference, but because I don't have the experience or visual; I don't know what I don't know.

dkoldman · 09-14-2023, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

Yep, your drawing are like I suggested. Tie into the hot wire on each side of the existing switch, with a lighted new switch.

I have to have in a language that is simplified where I can understand exactly what I would need to do BEFORE I start cutting/crimping wires. i.e. someone can tell me how I can replace the spark plugs, but while that may be straight forward, I would need more detail step by step instruction so I can visualize before I start pulling wires off the spark plugs.

Mark (L1V3) got me on my toes. I now have 3 workaround options.

1. My 52 oz water bottle with 4 flushes
2. Drop my requirement of wanted lighted switch in bathroom
3. Accept that I can have switch that does all I want except for light up when pump is already on.

Right now, I choose to keep on learning. Never heard of or seen an adaptor on a connector? If I have, I didn't know what I was looking at.

l1v3fr33ord1 · 09-16-2023, 09:27 AM

I've put together the information below to help me (mainly) sort out how two of the proposed solutions might work. I could be in error in both understanding and drawing, so I appreciate everyone looking the information over and confirming what parts of it are correct, and what parts are incorrect. It would not be the first time I am incorrect!

If we can come to agreement on how the circuit is supposed to work we can quickly figure out what parts might work to make the circuit.

Below find two JPEG drawings. You can click on either to make them larger and easier to read. Both show the existing monitor panel switch and a second, "remote" switch. There are two positions for each switch. Taken together, there are four combinations of switch positions. Each drawing shows how the 12V will flow to the pump and LEDs for each of the four combinations.

The existing monitor panel switch is an ON-NONE-ON switch. That means it has two positions: ON (upper) and ON (lower). If it was an ON-OFF-ON position it would have three positions: ON (upper), OFF and ON (lower).

For the "remote" switch we're looking at two different flavors. The first is an ON-OFF switch. This is the type that has been suggested for the "parallel" switch design, where the switch is in parallel with the existing switch, and is spliced into the 12V supply and the pump control wire. The "blue illuminated water pump" switch is an ON-OFF switch.

The second switch flavor is an ON-NONE-ON switch, the same as used in the monitor panel.

The first JPEG drawing shows the pump control and LED illumination using an ON-OFF "remote" switch. As you can see, there are three combinations that result in the pump being on and one combination where the pump is off. Put simply, if either switch turns the pump on it doesn't matter what you do to the other switch- the pump will stay on. I don't think that's the goal. Instead, I think the goal is to turn the pump on and off from either switch.

The second JPEG drawing shows the pump control and LED illumination using an ON-NONE-ON "remote" switch. There are two combinations that result in the pump being on and two combinations where the pump is off. The LEDs correctly display the pump status. Changing the position of either switch will change the pump and LED statuses. I believe this circuit meets the goal.

Now, I've yammered on for some length. I think it best to stop explaining and let your eyes and brains mull over the information I've presented. After all, I could be incorrect!

dkoldman · 09-17-2023, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1

If we can come to agreement on how the circuit is supposed to work we can quickly figure out what parts might work to make the circuit.

Below find two JPEG drawings. You can click on either to make them larger and easier to read. Both show the existing monitor panel switch and a second, "remote" switch. There are two positions for each switch. Taken together, there are four combinations of switch positions. Each drawing shows how the 12V will flow to the pump and LEDs for each of the four combinations.

The existing monitor panel switch is an ON-NONE-ON switch. That means it has two positions: ON (upper) and ON (lower). If it was an ON-OFF-ON position it would have three positions: ON (upper), OFF and ON (lower).

Other that the fact that I know my existing switch has a OFF and ON; I am lost here as to what this is actually telling me? Sounds like you are trying to tell me that my On/Off switch from WBGO is an ON-NONE-ON switch? Even though you state what that means, I don't follow or can't connect with what I should know

For the "remote" switch we're looking at two different flavors. The first is an ON-OFF switch. This is the type that has been suggested for the "parallel" switch design, where the switch is in parallel with the existing switch, and is spliced into the 12V supply and the pump control wire. The "blue illuminated water pump" switch is an ON-OFF switch.

So this is the blue light switch I have ordered and will get next week. It is On/OFF switch ( I may or may not ever use if I learn better on what to do, but for now... you are trying to tell me that it is ON/OFF switch like WBGO's switch; but NOT ON-NONE-ON; which I have stated I don't know what that means for me?

The second switch flavor is an ON-NONE-ON switch, the same as used in the monitor panel.

While we have some WBGO part numbers, the second switch is not clear to me what it all entails, what costs and where to buy etc? From what pictures I do see on the searches, it may be great if it were going into the Wet Bay, but I intend to put in the Bath room. The sellers sell to seasoned electricians who know what they want and why (high shipping and no returns), so right now with all of the part numbers and knowing it is an ON-NONE-ON switch is simply over my understanding right now.

The first JPEG drawing shows the pump control and LED illumination using an ON-OFF "remote" switch. As you can see, there are three combinations that result in the pump being on and one combination where the pump is off. Put simply, if either switch turns the pump on it doesn't matter what you do to the other switch- the pump will stay on. I don't think that's the goal. Instead, I think the goal is to turn the pump on and off from either switch.

Your first case is what my goal is / was? Maybe we should re-visit what am trying to do, and maybe I redo my thinking if I am missing something.

My Requirement:

I wish for existing OEM switch to function exactly as it does today, but if I am in the bathroom, I would like to see a 2nd switch that will light up if the existing Switch is ON. In the event the existing switch is OFF, no light on 2nd switch. I would then like to turn on the pump using 2nd switch. It lights up the 2nd Switch and the existing OEM switch. The OEM Switch will physically be in OFF position but pump is ON and LED is light up on main panel.

Further if I see the existing OEM switch LED on and note that it Physically in OFF position, I can go in the bath to turn the 2nd Switch OFF.

The second JPEG drawing shows the pump control and LED illumination using an ON-NONE-ON "remote" switch. There are two combinations that result in the pump being on and two combinations where the pump is off. The LEDs correctly display the pump status. Changing the position of either switch will change the pump and LED statuses. I believe this circuit meets the goal.

This sounds like it is saying. If either switch is ON, the pump is ON, If either Switch is OFF the pump is OFF? If so; it is counterintuitive to my objective which is specifically the scenario, whereby when the OEM switch is OFF, and I want to turn Pump ON using 2nd Switch; despite OEM switch telling me it is OFF, in your scenario who will the pump listen to if switch positions conflict? This may be what I need to learn

L1v3 aka Mark

We are perfect for each other because as your signature says "You are just trying to help" I should add to mine " Just trying to learn"

I say that because above are my questions and I want it to be clear (not lost in the translation) that I am not questioning you, but asking what I simply don't understand.

l1v3fr33ord1 · 09-17-2023, 03:28 PM

dkoldman-

Quote:

Other that the fact that I know my existing switch has a OFF and ON; I am lost here as to what this is actually telling me? Sounds like you are trying to tell me that my On/Off switch from WBGO is an ON-NONE-ON switch? Even though you state what that means, I don't follow or can't connect with what I should know

It will help to look at the drawings in post #74 (link here) as I explain, below.

An ON/OFF switch has two contacts on the back. In the ON position the two contacts are connected. in the OFF position the two contacts are not connected.

An ON/NONE/ON switch has three contacts on the back, but the rocker (the part of the switch that you touch to change its state) has only two positions. In the first ON position the CENTER contact is connected to the TOP contact. In the second ON position the CENTER contact is connected to the BOTTOM contact.

Here's something to think over, though. If you only connect wires to the CENTER and BOTTOM contacts then the ON/NONE/ON switch acts exactly like an ON/OFF switch. In your case there's a wire on the TOP contact, but as you followed that wire out you found that nothing was connected to it on pin 7 of the 15-pin connector. So, the switch in your monitor panel, which is an ON/NONE/ON switch, acts like an ON/OFF (two contact) switch, which is why you think it's an ON/OFF switch when it's not.

Quote:

So this is the blue light switch I have ordered and will get next week. It is On/OFF switch ( I may or may not ever use if I learn better on what to do, but for now... you are trying to tell me that it is ON/OFF switch like WBGO's switch; but NOT ON-NONE-ON; which I have stated I don't know what that means for me?

The switch in the monitor panel is an ON/NONE/ON switch.

The switch Winnebago would use in the bath (if you bought a coach with that option) is an ON/NONE/ON switch.

The switch you have bought is an ON/OFF switch.

Quote:

While we have some WBGO part numbers, the second switch is not clear to me what it all entails, what costs and where to buy etc? From what pictures I do see on the searches, it may be great if it were going into the Wet Bay, but I intend to put in the Bath room. The sellers sell to seasoned electricians who know what they want and why (high shipping and no returns), so right now with all of the part numbers and knowing it is an ON-NONE-ON switch is simply over my understanding right now.

I will be happy to buy the parts to do the entire job for you.

You have some choices for switches, mounting plates and LEDs, if they are not built into the switch. You'll be able to pick which ones work best for you.

I also will be happy to wire up the plug-and-play adapter for you (see post #71, link here), so no splicing will be required.

Quote:

My Requirement:

I wish for existing OEM switch to function exactly as it does today, but if I am in the bathroom, I would like to see a 2nd switch that will light up if the existing Switch is ON. In the event the existing switch is OFF, no light on 2nd switch. I would then like to turn on the pump using 2nd switch. It lights up the 2nd Switch and the existing OEM switch. The OEM Switch will physically be in OFF position but pump is ON and LED is light up on main panel.

Further if I see the existing OEM switch LED on and note that it Physically in OFF position, I can go in the bath to turn the 2nd Switch OFF.

Allow me to modify your requirements, slightly:

I wish for existing OEM switch to function exactly as it does today, but if I am in the bathroom, I would like to see a 2nd switch or switch and LED that will light up if the water pump is ON. In the event the water pump is OFF, no light on 2nd switch or its LED. I would then like to turn on the pump using 2nd switch. It lights up the 2nd Switch or an LED near the switch and the existing OEM LED. The OEM Switch will physically be in its original position but pump is ON and LED is light up on main panel.

Further if I see the existing OEM switch LED on I can turn the pump and LED off with the existing OEM switch, without having to go into the bath.

The proposed circuit design meets the requirements as I've modified them.

You are able to turn turn the pump on or off at either location. The LEDs will reflect the state of the pump.

Winnebago designed your monitor panel to be extended to the bath (or the wet bay- your choice) using this circuit design.

Here's something to think about, and once you get it down the rest will fall into place: The switch position (pressed in at the top or pressed in at the bottom) does not tell you if the pump is "on." The LED tells you that. You could pull the switch out of the monitor panel, invert it, re-insert it and the LED would still be the way you knew the pump is "on," even though you were now pressing the opposite end of the switch to turn the pump "on" or "off." With the proposed circuit design you don't care which end of the switch is pressed- if the LED is lit and you don't want it to be, press the other end of either switch and the LED will go out (and the pump will be "off.").

dkoldman · 09-17-2023, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1

dkoldman-

Allow me to modify your requirements, slightly:

I wish for existing OEM switch to function exactly as it does today, but if I am in the bathroom, I would like to see a 2nd switch or switch and LED that will light up if the water pump is ON. In the event the water pump is OFF, no light on 2nd switch or its LED. I would then like to turn on the pump using 2nd switch. It lights up the 2nd Switch or an LED near the switch and the existing OEM LED. The OEM Switch will physically be in its original position but pump is ON and LED is light up on main panel.

Further if I see the existing OEM switch LED on I can turn the pump and LED off with the existing OEM switch, without having to go into the bath.

The proposed circuit design meets the requirements as I've modified them.

You are able to turn turn the pump on or off at either location. The LEDs will reflect the state of the pump.

Winnebago designed your monitor panel to be extended to the bath (or the wet bay- your choice) using this circuit design.

You have correctly stated my requirement.

I wish for existing OEM switch to function exactly as it does today, but if I am in the bathroom, I would like to see a 2nd switch or switch and LED that will light up if the water pump is ON. In the event the water pump is OFF, no light on 2nd switch or its LED. I would then like to turn on the pump using 2nd switch. It lights up the 2nd Switch or an LED near the switch and the existing OEM LED. The OEM Switch will physically be in its original position but pump is ON and LED is light up on main panel.

Further if I see the existing OEM switch LED on [B]I can turn the pump and LED off with the existing OEM switch, without having to go into the bath.

I will have to do some more reading to catch up with the other. To keep things moving... it is safe for me to say that while I may not understand how the adaptor and the wiring works in your diagram for a 2nd ON-NONE-ON switch, I am confident you do

Just keep in mind that the reason I like the Blue Light switch is because it is clearly labeled as to what it is because others and guest may need to use the switch. I do follow enough now to know that it is best to use ON-NONE-ON switch to leverage WBGO existing schematics and intent of design. I will understand WHY better in time, as more lights come on (Pun Intended)

Also be aware that 2 years back, I replaced most of my standard OEM light switches with Dimmer switches from same Mfg. They are wider than the OEM switches so I had to use all new baseplates. I say so, because the light switch in Bath is wider and will not fit into a standard wall plate that you may assume.

7997redtail · 09-17-2023, 09:45 PM

Contact Winnebago and see if they have one. Should be easy to install if you can access the two blue wires. Take a look online for a house 4way wiring diagram.

l1v3fr33ord1 · 09-18-2023, 08:35 AM

Here are some revised diagrams.

1) The first shows the monitor panel wiring as built, using an ON-NONE-ON switch.
2) The second shows the same monitor panel, as if it had been built with an ON-OFF switch. Notice it works the same as the ON-NONE-ON switch, because the ON-NONE-ON switch has nothing wired to its "upper" position (pin 7 on the 15-pin connector).
3) The third shows the two-way switching with the pump wired to come on when the two switches are in opposite positions (option A).
4) The fourth shows the two-way switching with the pump wired to come on when the two switches are in the same positions (option B).

Both options will work as intended. For option A, the pump will be off when both switches are in the "ON2" = "OFF" position. For option B, the pump will be on when both switches are in the "ON1" = "ON" position. Six of one, a half-dozen of the other. Swapping the outer contact wires on either switch will change from one option to the other, so if one changes his mind later, it's an easy field modification to perform. As I said at the end of my post #78, it doesn't pay to get hung up on the position of the switches; what counts is the status of the pump/LED.

dkoldman · 09-18-2023, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l1v3fr33ord1

Here are some revised diagrams.

1) The first shows the monitor panel wiring as built, using an ON-NONE-ON switch.
2) The second shows the same monitor panel, as if it had been built with an ON-OFF switch. Notice it works the same as the ON-NONE-ON switch, because the ON-NONE-ON switch has nothing wired to its "upper" position (pin 7 on the 15-pin connector).
3) The third shows the two-way switching with the pump wired to come on when the two switches are in opposite positions (option A).
4) The fourth shows the two-way switching with the pump wired to come on when the two switches are in the same positions (option B).

Both options will work as intended. For option A, the pump will be off when both switches are in the "ON2" = "OFF" position. For option B, the pump will be on when both switches are in the "ON1" = "ON" position. Six of one, a half-dozen of the other. Swapping the outer contact wires on either switch will change from one option to the other, so if one changes his mind later, it's an easy field modification to perform. As I said at the end of my post #78, it doesn't pay to get hung up on the position of the switches; what counts is the status of the pump/LED.

I am getting smarter, or you are a becoming a better Educator for my Special Needs

I follow all of the above Post #79 clears it up for me

The 1st diagram in Post #79 turned the light bulbs on for me. If I were trying to explain the same to my wife I would NOT say ON-NONE-ON switch; but tell her we have option of a ON/OFF Switch or a ON1/ON2 Switch. She might may say why two ON positions; and I can simply say because the 2nd switch will always have contact on one ON, or on the other ON position.

Giving that you prefer to use two ON-NONE-ON switches, Option B is easier to follow wiring wise. I agree it makes no difference especially with the Blue lit ON/OFF switch because you don't even notice the position just the light.

I wish I had looked for ON-NONE-ON with backlit switch labeled Water Pump, but I didn't know what I didn't know.