New Questions / New Ideas / Mod? Just Thinking Out Loud

[dkoldman]

For a 2019 Sunstar 29ve or similar...

1. Does the 2019 Sunstar 29ve have Reverse Polarity Fuses?, and if so; where are they? Context: I see them in Thor Motor Coaches with a 40 amp Automotive fuse.

2. Has anyone plumbed or made a mod so bathroom sink can drain to black tank?
Context: My black tank never comes close to filling up. We use Gray 3:1 over Black. However, it would be nice for diverter valve; so owner could optionally direct to Gray or Black tank depending on need for that trip.

3. Does any one know where the connection for the cold water supply for toilet begins? I am thinking it may Tee off the cold water supply for bathroom sink? If so, has anyone switched so the cold water supply to toilet is fed with a hot water supply?
Context: Wouldn't it be nice to pump hot water in the toilet for flushes and for cleaning?

[Morich]

1. Not sure what the reverse polarity would be?? Something like you connect the battery wrong? That will almost automatically let you know if you connect the positive battery to the ground, so not sure what they are dealing with in their thinking??

Not heard of any on Winnebago.

2. I did some play with the interactive drawings and really see no "practical" way, but played with the idea anyway. There are two builds and the change involves this part of the draining. Do you have early build with seventh digit of serial number being 1 or later and digit of 2?

3. Looks like you are correct and both early and later builds connect as you thought under the sink but slightly different arrangement of fittings, etc. I might guess one could tease up the floor of the vanity to get to them??

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

1. Not sure what the reverse polarity would be?? Something like you connect the battery wrong? That will almost automatically let you know if you connect the positive battery to the ground, so not sure what they are dealing with in their thinking??

Not heard of any on Winnebago.

2. I did some play with the interactive drawings and really see no "practical" way, but played with the idea anyway. There are two builds and the change involves this part of the draining. Do you have early build with seventh digit of serial number being 1 or later and digit of 2?

3. Looks like you are correct and both early and later builds connect as you thought under the sink but slightly different arrangement of fittings, etc. I might guess one could tease up the floor of the vanity to get to them??

Hello MoRich,

I am back at it. I love this thing and just trying to learn more and explore new options.

1) Yes, Thor has fuse so if you wire batteries backwards it blows fuse. I spent all kinds of time exploring my DC wiring trouble shooting the Kwikie Step issue. I had two dealers give up and two months later I found the issue myself See picture of Thor Panel Board. As long as I know I do not have, I am good. All my DC circuits I am aware of are resettable breakers.

2) I have Year build 2 model; 7th digit is 2

3) For clarity, I am talking Bathroom Sink, and not the Outdoor Kitchen sink. Are you saying the cold water supply for toilets is sourced from cold water going to the Outside kitchen sink?

[Morich]

No, sorry as I got too many ideas in mind and lost track of the questions!
On the stool in the later build, the drawings show the lines for the vanity sink come in and likely run up behind a wall at the left side of the cabinet under the sink and that is where there is a tee to tie in the line going to the stool! Better idea on this drawing. Exactly how to get to it is still unknown but it looks like you might get to it by pulling either the panel on the left or maybe the panel at the bottom of the vanity?

I've had luck getting a few of those off if I could start a small item like a nail enough to get the staples to start and then tease it off gently with a really small four inch pry bar. then to go back, I found I have a heavy duty stapler that is strong enough to hold the panel as it is pretty close to paper thin! I first thought glue but I also wanted the option of getting in later if I wanted and I knew glue would make me tear it all apart.

For changing the drain, there "might " be a way but it would take some close looking to see if my "brainstorm" has a chance!

I see the line goes down from the vanity sink, along the wall under a small cabinet, maybe, and then under the shower to drop into the grey tank.

As long as there is water in the sink trap, the gas/fumes/smell is cut off from getting inside BUT if the water ever dries out of trap--black water smell comes into bath!

WARNING:
Remember that I may talk you into all kinds of trouble!

[Reniram]

When parked at the campsite I always leave my Gray tank valve in the open position so all the kitchen and bathroom waste water goes directly to drain..obviously the Black tank valve is kept shut until its full and time to drain and flush. I dont do primitive camping very often so its never been a problem..

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

No, sorry as I got too many ideas in mind and lost track of the questions!
On the stool in the later build, the drawings show the lines for the vanity sink come in and likely run up behind a wall at the left side of the cabinet under the sink and that is where there is a tee to tie in the line going to the stool! Better idea on this drawing. Exactly how to get to it is still unknown but it looks like you might get to it by pulling either the panel on the left or maybe the panel at the bottom of the vanity?

I've had luck getting a few of those off if I could start a small item like a nail enough to get the staples to start and then tease it off gently with a really small four inch pry bar. then to go back, I found I have a heavy duty stapler that is strong enough to hold the panel as it is pretty close to paper thin! I first thought glue but I also wanted the option of getting in later if I wanted and I knew glue would make me tear it all apart.

For changing the drain, there "might " be a way but it would take some close looking to see if my "brainstorm" has a chance!

I see the line goes down from the vanity sink, along the wall under a small cabinet, maybe, and then under the shower to drop into the grey tank.

As long as there is water in the sink trap, the gas/fumes/smell is cut off from getting inside BUT if the water ever dries out of trap--black water smell comes into bath!

WARNING:
Remember that I may talk you into all kinds of trouble!

I can actually follow this. Thanks for dumbing it down for me.

Next time I have coach cooled down, I will have to experiment to see what I can find. On the surface the hot water to the toilet by exchanging the T or fittings seem doable. My fear it is going to be some Pex fittings which is not my expertise. But let me find it first.

The diverter valve will be more of challenges. My concern there is if I had it done, the valve might not be easily assessible to select the drain of my choosing. But again next step is for me to find it, I know where to look.

At some point Winnebago may wish to pay me for my coach. These are simple User friendly things that I don't see how / why they don't incorporate. They can't say money because hot water to the toilet is no extra parts and same labor, just hook it up smart.

Gray tank valve would cost 3 feet of PVC, Tee, and a diverter valve or possibly two on/off valves. What if you wanted to split it.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Reniram

When parked at the campsite I always leave my Gray tank valve in the open position so all the kitchen and bathroom waste water goes directly to drain..obviously the Black tank valve is kept shut until its full and time to drain and flush. I dont do primitive camping very often so its never been a problem..

I think we may need to define problem? Other than when I first bought it and I incorrectly assumed the bathroom sink was plumbed to the black tank like the outdoor kitchen sink, I have never had a problem. When the was new; we were on a trip out in West Texas and we knew the Gray tank was full. We had spent five days boondocking. So in my infinite wisdom, I had the family stop using the shower & kitchen sink. We continued to use the Bathroom sink Worse we had an unknown warranty issue because at a gas station I saw water coming out of a lower bay compartment. It turned out to be gray water, and it was coming from the top of the gray tank, but underneath the floor because the the plumbing was not sealed. Winnebago, who I swear by, and a local Dealer took care of it within a week of me getting back to Dallas.

But to me; this mod I seek is to see if it is possible. It is about convenience for us. Unlike you, when we are at a campsite, I rarely if ever hook up. I don't even like to get the camp water unless I have to. If my gray tank is 2/3rds or more and I have time, I will drain it, but 80% of the time I drain at home with my macerator pump and 100 ft 3/4 inch hose

My point on this quest is about optimization. I want to use my RV in full like normal for 3 or 4 people and have equivalent fill ratios to be about the same. I don't want to be 2/3rd full Gray and still showing E on Black We use the sink a lot for washing hands etc. I wish to continue to do so. Has it been a problem, No. But for us, I am 100% sure if I had to go one way or the other; I prefer our bathroom sink be plumb to the black tank. Our black tank rarely hits 2/3rds no matter how much I try to run down that toilet.

[Morich]

IF you get around to it and IF itlooks like something to do, this is a small gizmo that we might not think about too often but can be a lifesaver as it avoids cutting the larger 1 1/2 inch pipe to put a fittingin place. Instead this "saddle" slips on the side of a pipe and we can drill a hole to let the water in!
Handy at times, so thought to mention it:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/FIMCO-1-...9029/204333418

For access to turn a cutoff valve, would it fit to point the valve handle toward the front of the small cabinet space, add an "extention" on the handle to bring a form of knob out to the cabinet front/ base, where it could be turned to open/close? Instead of a big gaping hole, perhaps a knob on the front of the cabinet, maybe down where the kickplate is on some cabinets?

Throwing ideas and you get to decide!

[bigb]

dkoldman you and I think alike and I am always making mods that improve the rig or mods to correct poor methods Winnebago used like the piss poor refrigerator install.
You got me thinking on the bathroom sink, we have the same issue that the gray fills way quicker than the black. However the gray has a macerator pump that pumps the water over the axle and into the 3" pipe that the slinky hooks to. After reading your thread I came up with an idea that will work for my rig but unfortunately probably won't work for you unless you install a gray water pump. I am thinking to just tap into the macerator line with a diverter and a short piece of hose connected to the black tank near the top so when my gray is full I can just pump some of it into the black. Like I said I already have the pump that was installed because the gray tank is behind the rear axle and they needed a way to get the graywater over the axle to the main sewer drain but thought I'd throw it out there in case a pump is feasible on your rig. We don't put much water down the bathroom sink so this would enable me to distribute the waste water how I see fit without pouring dishwater in the bath sink etc. and also make an easy way to flush the black tank with graywater. What do you think?

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

:At some point Winnebago may wish to pay me for my coach.

Forgive me, but I’m really scratching my head trying to comprehend this statement. Any explanation?

[DavidM]

Commenting on your questions in order:

1. I know WFCO 89XX series converters used on most Thor MHs have two 40A fuses for polarity protection. Don't know if the equivalent PD converters do.

2. Yes our black tank gets 1/10 the volume of our grey. But even if you could divert some grey water to black, you would still be limited by water storage capacity. In our case it is roughly equal to the grey water capacity, so not much benefit to diverting.

3. Flushing with hot water would be nice, but it would require a lot of wasted water to get the temp up to hot water levels. Maybe only when you do a big one

David

[Morich]

Originally Posted by bigb

dkoldman you and I think alike and I am always making mods that improve the rig or mods to correct poor methods Winnebago used like the piss poor refrigerator install.
You got me thinking on the bathroom sink, we have the same issue that the gray fills way quicker than the black. However the gray has a macerator pump that pumps the water over the axle and into the 3" pipe that the slinky hooks to. After reading your thread I came up with an idea that will work for my rig but unfortunately probably won't work for you unless you install a gray water pump. I am thinking to just tap into the macerator line with a diverter and a short piece of hose connected to the black tank near the top so when my gray is full I can just pump some of it into the black. Like I said I already have the pump that was installed because the gray tank is behind the rear axle and they needed a way to get the graywater over the axle to the main sewer drain but thought I'd throw it out there in case a pump is feasible on your rig. We don't put much water down the bathroom sink so this would enable me to distribute the waste water how I see fit without pouring dishwater in the bath sink etc. and also make an easy way to flush the black tank with graywater. What do you think?

On this idea, I also had a thought to hook to the drain pump outlet but looked at the other idea as well.
He does show a pump at the other sink and adding a drain cutoff valve and hose connection under the vanity and running line to the output line from the pump would seem to be something to look at for being practical, but with some things to consider before starting.

This snip looking from the passenger side in toward the plumbing may help.
The things we can't see from the drawings are really important and would need a close look.

How much is involved in getting a cutoff/diverter valve under the vanity?
Got access and room or no?

Can you get a hose between the vanity and along the outlet of the drain pump? Can you get it high enough to drain into the black tank without using the pump? That would seem best if there was no need to run the pump, as running the pump would then bring the question of where and how the control switch to the pump is located. Would one need to add a second switch at the vanity to turn the pump on? Is the current switch in the outside compartment?
Ideal might be to hook into that line right at the point where it goes into the tank which is hidden in this view?
Can he find and work on it there or is it up against the floor and not something that can be reached?

The devil is often in the details! But looking at both options likely will tell us that one is far better than the other---or possibly neither is practical!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by bigb

dkoldman you and I think alike and I am always making mods that improve the rig or mods to correct poor methods Winnebago used like the piss poor refrigerator install.
You got me thinking on the bathroom sink, we have the same issue that the gray fills way quicker than the black. However the gray has a macerator pump that pumps the water over the axle and into the 3" pipe that the slinky hooks to. After reading your thread I came up with an idea that will work for my rig but unfortunately probably won't work for you unless you install a gray water pump. I am thinking to just tap into the macerator line with a diverter and a short piece of hose connected to the black tank near the top so when my gray is full I can just pump some of it into the black. Like I said I already have the pump that was installed because the gray tank is behind the rear axle and they needed a way to get the graywater over the axle to the main sewer drain but thought I'd throw it out there in case a pump is feasible on your rig. We don't put much water down the bathroom sink so this would enable me to distribute the waste water how I see fit without pouring dishwater in the bath sink etc. and also make an easy way to flush the black tank with graywater. What do you think?

BigB,

If I gave you an idea, you may have given me a better idea?

I do have a Flo Jet Macerator that I carry all of the time, and a 25' orange Camco sewer hose. If I am not at a campsite, or if dumping is not convenient, I could connect my sewer hose to Flo jet macerator and the inbound Black Tank sani flush. Turn on the pump to drain the gray back down and in turn raising the black with more liquidous water. I can do that now Wow, I may invest in a 3' or 4' hose just for this purpose to make it really simple to do.

In fact; I could actually leave it connected. Then I would only need to open the gray tank valve; and turn on the pump As a bonus it would help clean the black tank.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Forgive me, but I’m really scratching my head trying to comprehend this statement. Any explanation?

Tongue and cheek in case anybody from Winnebago was reading They send me surveys all of the time for feedback, but generally it is for what I may buy next. A lot of folks do mods, I would think some of those ideas would be worthwhile at Winnebago Engineering. I mean why can you divert hot water to the toilet? Why can't you divert bathroom sink gray to black or gray tanks as needed? Why don't the coaches come with dimmer switches? Why is there not a convenient Inverter supplied plug at the rear of the fridge for use when traveling etc. etc.

Maybe I am wrong, but I would think a Product Manager would find it noteworthy for all of the things I have done or trying to do.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by DavidM

Commenting on your questions in order:

1. I know WFCO 89XX series converters used on most Thor MHs have two 40A fuses for polarity protection. Don't know if the equivalent PD converters do.

Yes, the picture earlier was from a Thor, but I didn't think of the converter itself. I raised the question because I do not see automotive fuses on my rig, but they may have regular automotive fuses on Converter and Inverter for that matter. I don't have an issue, but was wondering if I ever had a Reverse Polarity issue... where to check?

2. Yes our black tank gets 1/10 the volume of our grey. But even if you could divert some grey water to black, you would still be limited by water storage capacity. In our case it is roughly equal to the grey water capacity, so not much benefit to diverting.

If you make the assumption you reset to zero with fresh water full before each trip that theory would fly.

However, in our case we ALWAYS start with 71 gallons fresh no matter what. I generally will only dump when the black is at least 2/3rd full. We have 40 gal Black tank so that is about 24 gallons.

Our Gray tank is 61 gallons, but when it hits 2/3rd ( 40 gallons) we get nervous. At our current ratios, the point is that if our bathroom sink water flowed to black tank; we would % ratio fill balance. With that said; I understand agree with why it flows to the gray, but think RV owners should have the option to divert based on needs. We are never gonna worry about black tank being too full, so I figure the 12 - 15 gallons we could add to it, if needed would make a world of difference.

But make note: Based on suggestion from BigB, I can do what I want now. I can pump from gray to black tank anytime I wish through my Flo Jet macerator and Sani flush port

3. Flushing with hot water would be nice, but it would require a lot of wasted water to get the temp up to hot water levels. Maybe only when you do a big one

David

On the hot water, the intent was not to have REQUIRED hot water every time you flush. But if Hot water heater was on, the water going to toilet would be hot, and if it was off it would be cold as normal. However, if you wanted to clean toilet you could always do it when you had hot water. In our case, we have a lot of hot water that we heated but when we turn the hot water heater off, it goes cold / warm again depending upon ambient temperature. Again this is not a biggie, but I would rather be able to flow hot or cold water to my RV toilet than only being able to send cold water. At home, that is different because of the size and volume of water plus the fact the hot water heater is on 100% of the time. This is just about energy conservation and cleanliness. Of course we can get a bucket of hot water from the sink and do the same thing, but why is it not plumbed that way? No extra parts or cost required?

[bigb]

For washing the toilet you could plumb in a sprayer or a hand held bidet from under the sink, they even make a temperature control to do it. You probably already have the sprayer that only works when you are flushing the toilet at the same time I tee'd mine into the supply line with a separate valve so we can use it without holding the flush pedal down.

[bigb]

The only problem I see with pumping the gray into the tank rinser is possibly clogging the tank rinser with food particles. Doesn't the tank rinser have small jets on the spray side? You could put a screen there though. Will any back pressure hurt the pump? I was thinking of using the same size hose and fitting that mine presently uses which is 1.5" but if I could tee in a garden hose that would be even easier if the back pressure won't hurt my pump which has a 1.5" output.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

No, sorry as I got too many ideas in mind and lost track of the questions!
On the stool in the later build, the drawings show the lines for the vanity sink come in and likely run up behind a wall at the left side of the cabinet under the sink and that is where there is a tee to tie in the line going to the stool! Better idea on this drawing. Exactly how to get to it is still unknown but it looks like you might get to it by pulling either the panel on the left or maybe the panel at the bottom of the vanity?

I've had luck getting a few of those off if I could start a small item like a nail enough to get the staples to start and then tease it off gently with a really small four inch pry bar. then to go back, I found I have a heavy duty stapler that is strong enough to hold the panel as it is pretty close to paper thin! I first thought glue but I also wanted the option of getting in later if I wanted and I knew glue would make me tear it all apart.

For changing the drain, there "might " be a way but it would take some close looking to see if my "brainstorm" has a chance!

I see the line goes down from the vanity sink, along the wall under a small cabinet, maybe, and then under the shower to drop into the grey tank.

As long as there is water in the sink trap, the gas/fumes/smell is cut off from getting inside BUT if the water ever dries out of trap--black water smell comes into bath!

WARNING:
Remember that I may talk you into all kinds of trouble!

So I got a chance to remove a few panels today. It is freaking incredible how tight this stuff is in the walls. All of the plumbing is over electrical 120vac & 12vdc. The outside TV receptacle is right next to bathroom faucet fixture

Anyway, my hot water line is not plumbed exactly like the drawing but very close. See attached. The Red line I drew is actually where the hot water line run. I did not see a fitting for the Red hot water at all short on the bottom of the faucet. The cold water Tee is all clamped with Pex hose fittings. Not sure this is a job, I would try to take on myself out of fear of creating a leak, but to do it, I think it would be simple for professional.

Steps I think I would take.

1. Remove the Tee off Cold water line and replace with a coupler so the cold water runs to the bathroom sink only.
2. Cut the Red Pex hose at a point easiest to get to, but close to the hose going to toilet. Insert a the Tee from the cold water line and clamp down two ends with pex clamp
3. Run new Red pex hose about 20" from hot water Tee clamped with Pex clamp and then using a coupler mate the Red pex hose to the existing hose for toilet.
4. Verify for leaks, and it is done.

In this configuration, it will always be cold water unless the heater is on or had been on.

My guess is a professional would charge me $250 ($200 labor and $50 parts / materials)
It would probably cost me $100 to get the Pex tools and $50 of parts / materials)

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by bigb

For washing the toilet you could plumb in a sprayer or a hand held bidet from under the sink, they even make a temperature control to do it. You probably already have the sprayer that only works when you are flushing the toilet at the same time I tee'd mine into the supply line with a separate valve so we can use it without holding the flush pedal down.

BigB

What we have done in the past is take the shower head and point it in the toilet and it provides hot water. I also use that same shower head when I wish to dump fresh water. Versus pumping and allowing to drain on the ground, I prefer to pump it so it fills the black tank to help with the black tank flush and clean.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by bigb

The only problem I see with pumping the gray into the tank rinser is possibly clogging the tank rinser with food particles. Doesn't the tank rinser have small jets on the spray side? You could put a screen there though. Will any back pressure hurt the pump? I was thinking of using the same size hose and fitting that mine presently uses which is 1.5" but if I could tee in a garden hose that would be even easier if the back pressure won't hurt my pump which has a 1.5" output.

My Black tank inlet already has a screen I always wondered why, now I know. Thanks. The Flojet macerates anything anyway so it is all a fine slurry of gray water.

My FloJet macerator was made for a standard garden hose, although I use 3/4" hose. But for this I would use the standard 5/8" hose. The pump is pretty strong though; but I would think if it got too much pressure and strained it would blow the fuse. But I don't see it happening because this pump can run dry and not overload or get hot. I stop it based on sound. It would not take me 3 minutes to pump 15 gallons with it.

FWIW,
I was going to pump some gray into the black to test it out, but when I checked both are sitting at 1/3rd full

That is because trip before last I came home with gray Full and Black tank on 1/3. So I dumped the gray and left the black. The last trip a lot shorter and the gray is 1/3rd and the black is still at 1/3 prolly just under 23 gallons though.

Because I use the Thetford chemicals in black tank, I don't want to dump the black tank every time I dump gray when I don't need too.

I can't wait to try this as it is exactly what I would like to do and in many ways a lot safer, plus help to keep the ratio of water higher in my black tank and more flushing. Heck we may even start taking longer showers.