Do we really need a braking system in our toads?

[mel s]

Originally Posted by jmckinley

I didn't hear it, I read it. Incorrect/misleading information? I don't think so, Mel.

Direct quotes from the following:

Ford 2012 F-250/350/450/550 Owner's Manual, page 256---"The braking system of the tow vehicle is rated for operation at the GVWR not GCWR."

Dodge Ram 2014 Owner's Manual, page 603 --- If the trailer weighs more than 1,000 lbs (454 kg) loaded, it should have its own brakes and they should be of adequate capacity. Failure to do this could lead to accelerated brake lining wear, higher brake pedal effort, and longer stopping distances.


Ford 2006 Owner's Guide Motorhome Class A Chassis page 48 -- "The towing vehicle braking system is rated for operation at the GVWR, not the GCWR.
Separate functioning brake systems are required for safe control of towed vehicles and trailers weighting more than 1500 Lb. (680 kg) when loaded."

Family Motor Coach Association
"The GCWR is not related to a motorhome's braking capability; it is based on the motorhome's ability to pull the towed vehicle. If the towed vehicle's weight is greater than the unbraked towing capacity of the motorhome chassis, a supplemental braking system should be considered. Some chassis manufacturers recommend that supplemental brakes be used when pulling towed vehicles that weigh as little as 1,000 pounds."

jmckinley
I stand corrected.
Sorry.
Mel

[UFO Pilot]

The info that came from Winne on my RV states that any thing being towed that weighs over 1500 pounds requires auxilary brakes.

[Mich F]

I've never towed a car with a motor home, but I have towed a number of boats over the years. Back in the late 90's I had a 22' Class C Four Winds with which I towed a couple of different 18'ers and then a 20' boat. The 20'er weighed between 3-3,500#. I had surge brakes on the trailer for that boat. On one of my many trips down to Key Largo, I was approaching a light that was turning red. I applied the brakes like I normally would, although this time I didn't stop until I was about 1/2 through the intersection. Fortunately I was out in the middle of nowhere, and there was no cross traffic. It seems my brakes decided at that point to fail to function. I continued down to the Keys, a little more carefully, conscious of the bad breaks.
I went right to a trailer shop down there, and had the brakes repaired before my trip home.
Ever since then I've made sure that whenever towing a boat that size or bigger, the trailer must have working brakes.
Of course, whether towing a car or boat without brakes, it can be done, perhaps illegally in a lot of states, but you have to be aware that the stopping distances are going to be much longer, without brakes.
I suppose if someone has towed for a lot of years without brakes, they have no idea the difference of having brakes would make.
Unfortunately, it doesn't make it smart, safe or even legal, and I would hope that anyone towing without brakes, doesn't cause someone else harm because of their decision to not have brakes.

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by Mich F

I've never towed a car with a motor home, but I have towed a number of boats over the years. Back in the late 90's I had a 22' Class C Four Winds with which I towed a couple of different 18'ers and then a 20' boat. The 20'er weighed between 3-3,500#. I had surge brakes on the trailer for that boat. On one of my many trips down to Key Largo, I was approaching a light that was turning red. I applied the brakes like I normally would, although this time I didn't stop until I was about 1/2 through the intersection. Fortunately I was out in the middle of nowhere, and there was no cross traffic. It seems my brakes decided at that point to fail to function. I continued down to the Keys, a little more carefully, conscious of the bad breaks. I went right to a trailer shop down there, and had the brakes repaired before my trip home. Ever since then I've made sure that whenever towing a boat that size or bigger, the trailer must have working brakes. Of course, whether towing a car or boat without brakes, it can be done, perhaps illegally in a lot of states, but you have to be aware that the stopping distances are going to be much longer, without brakes. I suppose if someone has towed for a lot of years without brakes, they have no idea the difference of having brakes would make. Unfortunately, it doesn't make it smart, safe or even legal, and I would hope that anyone towing without brakes, doesn't cause someone else harm because of their decision to not have brakes.

Well, unfortunately those people that make these poor decisions never accept blame for anything nor recognize that it can be blamed on their poor judgment. They will say it was someone else's fault.... They will say something like it was the fault of those people in front of them that slammed their brakes on, or it was the fault of the deer that ran out in their lane, etc, etc, etc.

Now, if they have a few close calls, and then get a breaking system, then they will see the difference and suddenly they will simply turn around and start a thread; Who can argue with the fact that it is much safer to have a toad breaking system? LOL


Ted

[BobGed]

A few thoughts:

To me personally the question isn't so much about having a supplemental braking system, even though it can definitely help slow down and stop the coach/towed combination quicker, but it's more about having a break away system which will stop a vehicle that has been separated from the coach.

For those that say that's what the safety chains are for, that may be adequate in some cases, but the majority of failures that I have read involve the complete base plate separating from the towed vehicle. That's why it's so important to use cables to connect the base plate to the frame of the towed vehicle, and attach the break away switch to the frame. Now the question is, how can you have a functional break away device without having a supplemental braking system? The answer is, you can't.

My worst nightmare would be if I didn't have a functional break away system installed, and my towed became separated from the coach, turning itself into a 4,000# missile that might run into another vehicle causing bodily injury or worse.

Regarding California requiring a supplemental braking system on a towed vehicle. Don't me like me and bet on it because you'll lose. I was shocked to find out they do not require a supplemental brake system on towed motor vehicles (see Section 26458 (c) (3) California Law - VEHICLE CODE [VEH Sections 26301. - 26522.]), and don't even require a break away system (see Pg 28 http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf)

Bottom line for me is I won't tow without a supplemental braking system, the base plate cable secured to the frame and a break away switch attached to the frame.

[jmckinley]

Originally Posted by mel s

jmckinley
I stand corrected.
Sorry.
Mel

Wow, Mel, that was too easy. Usually I stay out of these discussions because it is just impossible to convince people of anything. I'm just trying to help here, and I appreciate your response.

[navychaps]

I just cannot stop myself....The reason we need aux braking has nothing to do with legal or even manufacturer recommendations! The reason I/we need aux braking systems is to give myself/ourselves every advantage I/we can while traveling these highways. Starting is optional, stopping is mandatory! And as said before, "you don't need them till you NEED them."

[Clifftall]

Originally Posted by navychaps

"you don't need them till you NEED them."

Sorta like insurance. It's very expensive if you never need to use it , however it's dirt cheap when you do.

[ahicks]

Even if I didn't feel I need them from a functional standpoint, I'd be concerned enough for the liability aspects to use one anyway....

[ChallengerRN]

My take-- One of the posters on here had an unfortunate accident where someone is injured.

I see a lawyer coming to court showing the IRV2 post saying "I don't like a brake system will never use one".

Oops. Case over. Guilty.

My reason for toad break system.

Russell.

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by AggieDad

TwelveVolt

From your post it seems as though you and I will never get past agreeing to disagree, but perhaps I can address some of your points.

1. I don't think anything I wrote was fear-mongering
   ... it might just be your child or mine in front of that motorhome.
   
2. It is the law in most states. Simply put, without an auxiliary braking system you are breaking the law in many states. Yes, the requirements do vary from state to state, but we have the law even in Texas - a state not necessarily known for extra regulation!
   
3. Is the cigarette lighter receptacle really a deal-breaker for you? There are other braking options or you could just hard wire a brake system designed for the 12 volt system.
   
4. 99.999% of the time? Really? How many things in this world work with that dependability? Certainly no part of your motorhome or your toad. We would all love that, and it can be attained, but what would be the cost? If guys don't want to spend a grand, what makes you think they will spend many multiples of that for a small incremental gain in reliability? Would you settle for 99.999% at 2 sigma?

In the real world, as planes leave runways, ships leave docks and cars leave driveways, millions of people stay alive every day because of other people's belief in quality manufacturing and maintenance. Unfortunately, in some RV businesses, quality of products and services seems to be treated as a joke. They believe that anyone who chooses to buy a MH is long on credit and short on brains, and it is their personal responsibility to take advantage.

I have been driving for a few decades now and I have pressed a brake pedal well over 100,000 times. In all that time, the brake pads have never failed to engage the drum/rotor and bring the vehicle to a stop. Yes, quality is possible and a daily reality in many if not most industries.

I chose the cigarette lighter as just one example that everyone could understand. The point is that there does not appear to be any third party oversight of the design and manufacturing of these braking safety devices. Buy a $1000 device and take it home to fix it?

As mentioned earlier, I have purchased three used aux brake devices. All three defective. Two had the same cracked plastic pneumatic $10 part. The result is that the compressor will run indefinitely until it dies, melts down or blows a fuse because there is no built-in mechanism to handle this problem or notify the driver. Depending on the size of the crack, some or all of the braking capability is gone. I called the manufacturer. Could they fix it at the next rally, or could I buy the $10 parts from them. Absolutely not. I would have to ship the units to the factory for a rebuild/overhaul at almost half the cost of a new unit. Anybody can stop at NAPA or any other auto shop to pick up pads, rotors, calipers and any other parts they need to rebuild their brakes in their driveway this afternoon, but this magic box needs very special, very expensive handling. While I understand that a large portion of those dollars probably go to insurance premiums, the end result is that I have little to no confidence in the quality of the product or the manufacturer's desire to stand behind it.

If I was driving an SUV or pick-up towing a 2500 lb boat, I would absolutely want a name-brand, tested brake on the trailer, whether it is a legal requirement or not. I have seen too many fiberglass skid marks along US1. A good part of the disagreement in this thread seems to stem from the fact that each individual is picturing his own towing configuration when evaluating other's comments.

I am using one of the repaired units in my toad to better understand how it works. However, having looked at the design and build quality, I have no confidence that the device will work when I most need it. On top of that is my apprehension after reading entries on this and other forums of these devices going up in smoke. Therefore, I drive as if it is not there. Since the toad is less than 15% of my combined weight, I cannot feel any contribution from the toad brakes. Sure, I can turn up the sensitivity and brake pressure, but who wants to replace the tires and brakes every year? The break-away feature would be nice, if it happened to work on the day it was needed.

But legal? You betchya!

[dlovitt]

Originally Posted by Ramzfan

I have towed a car behind my motorhome(s) since 1987. For years, I towed a Jeep Wrangler, then a Jeep Grand Cherokee and most recently, a Jeep Wrangler 4-door. I have never had a braking system. I have been all over the United States and have never been stopped nor asked if I had one. I know there's lots of talk out there that it's safer...maybe, but I've never had a problem stopping. Some say it saves your brakes...I've never had to replace a set of brakes on any of my motorhomes. It seems like I would have to replace my Jeep brakes sooner though, because they're being used for every stop the coach makes. I'm just curious, WHY do I need one...?

This is a joke-right?

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by dlovitt

This is a joke-right?

Unfortunately, it probably is not a joke.... It reminds me of years ago when most people drove around without wearing seat belts (not to mention how many don't today).... They simply just don't think anything will happen to them. They may say, I have driven for many years without wearing one, I don't believe it is needed... Just think of how many people still smoke after they have been educated how dangerous it is..... I hear them say things like; my Grandad smoked for 60 years and didn't have any problems....


Ted

[navychaps]

Pleaseeeeee close this thread......

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by navychaps

Pleaseeeeee close this thread......

Like many, it refuses to die.... Lol

Besides, this is nothing... I keep seeing one thread that keeps getting posts, when the person that started the thread only made two posts over 18 months ago, and yet the thread continues to be alive and well....

I guess we just like to keep making comments on some topics.... And some of us really don't have much else to do....


Ted

[UFO Pilot]

Originally Posted by navychaps

Pleaseeeeee close this thread......

Someone else will just start another one.

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by BobGed

A few thoughts:

To me personally the question isn't so much about having a supplemental braking system, even though it can definitely help slow down and stop the coach/towed combination quicker, but it's more about having a break away system which will stop a vehicle that has been separated from the coach.

For those that say that's what the safety chains are for, that may be adequate in some cases, but the majority of failures that I have read involve the complete base plate separating from the towed vehicle. That's why it's so important to use cables to connect the base plate to the frame of the towed vehicle, and attach the break away switch to the frame. Now the question is, how can you have a functional break away device without having a supplemental braking system? The answer is, you can't.

My worst nightmare would be if I didn't have a functional break away system installed, and my towed became separated from the coach, turning itself into a 4,000# missile that might run into another vehicle causing bodily injury or worse.

Regarding California requiring a supplemental braking system on a towed vehicle. Don't me like me and bet on it because you'll lose. I was shocked to find out they do not require a supplemental brake system on towed motor vehicles (see Section 26458 (c) (3) California Law - VEHICLE CODE [VEH Sections 26301. - 26522.]), and don't even require a break away system (see Pg 28 http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf)

Bottom line for me is I won't tow without a supplemental braking system, the base plate cable secured to the frame and a break away switch attached to the frame.

Thanks for posting this info. It looks like section 26454 is saying that a DP must stop in a distance of 40 feet, but it gets an additional allowance of 10 feet if pulling a toad.

I remember some discussion on the introduction of ABS in cars and the problem that some cars were now stopping too well, causing rear end collisions. If the three cars in the video were in the same lane, lining them up as Land Rover, Escort, Lexus would work well. Reversing the order creates two potential rear-end collisions.

Regarding your break-away only idea. A trigger-once mousetrap like mechanism would be somewhat simpler, more reliable, and less expensive than a full braking system.

[greystroke]

One thing a driver needs to ask himself. Would it affect you if the toad come off and couple of kids were killed by your uncontrolled vehicle??? I don't think I could go on with life if I killed a couple of kids due to my gross negligence. Not having aux braking is gross negligence.

[CampDaven]

Originally Posted by greystroke

One thing a driver needs to ask himself. Would it affect you if the toad come off and couple of kids were killed by your uncontrolled vehicle??? I don't think I could go on with life if I killed a couple of kids due to my gross negligence. Not having aux braking is gross negligence.

I agree!
I did not strike a child because of aux brakes. I stopped just in time. Without aux, well, I dont want to think about it!
The vast majority of us have aux. It is basic physics for the benefit of all. Some conjure reasons to not, but possibly, no...probably "just because".

[Ramzfan]

I see a tremendous amount of fear-mongering in these posts. They remind me a lot of the advertisements for Yale Locks or an alarm company... "What if someone breaks into your home?" "What if your child is kidnapped?" You know these companies have become multi-million dollar entities because of the fears that they instill in the public mentality. Having your tow-hitch 'fall off' of your vehicle probably has a one in ten million chance of happening...the same with your toad coming unhitched and the safety cables/chains both breaking. C'mon folks, it ain't gonna happen. By the same token, I could go around saying "What if one of my wheels fell off?...some poor old lady pushing a baby-carriage might get killed...!" "What if my engine fell out of my coach...?" Please, gimme a break............