Do we really need a braking system in our toads?

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by UFO Pilot

From my Winnebago Motor Home Weight Information Sheet:

If the “trailer" is not equipped with brakes that are activated when the motor homes brakes are applied, the GCWR equals the GVWR plus 1000 lbs. An exception is any motor home model for which towing is not permitted. In that case, GCWR equals GVWR. For purposes of this definition, the “trailer” can be a trailer, a vehicle towed on a dolly, or a vehicle towed by means of a tow bar.


My GVWR is 26000 lbs and my GCWR is 30000 lbs. I can tow 4000 lbs with auxiliary brakes but only 1000 lbs without them.

If I read this correctly, it sounds like the manufacturer is saying that if the tanks are empty and you leave the toolbox and toys at home for this trip to come in at 2000 lb. under gross, then you can tow a 3000 lb. toad without the need for additional braking. Toad = 11% of combined weight of 27,000 lb.

[bvaughn4]

I kept asking myself the same question as I was contemplating purchasing a Class A. I figured it was huge and had plenty of braking to manage the RV and the toad. The laws for the states I planned to visit didn't require one.

What pushed me over the edge to get one was a visual I kept having of my Jeep going off the side of the road or worse, across the median into oncoming traffic and killing someone due to a towbar failure. Ended up with a Blue Ox system I picked up used. It's comforting to see the light come on on the remote monitor showing me the toad is braking too when I apply the brakes hard.

[tedgard01]

I believed that the OP was asking a serious question that he wanted to discuss. I think that various folks provided their valid concerns on both sides of the issue. These forums are a good place to get advice and both pros and cons on a given subject.

I gave my honest advice on reasons that it is important for having a breaking system on a toad, the OP and others gave their reasoning why they did not think a breaking system was needed.

Debate is a good thing.


Ted

[Thunderfoot]

As an RV owner and responsible citizen I am most concerned with a "runaway" vehicle. Therefore, my safety chains/cables are firmly connected to the main frame of the RV and the main frame of the toad. In the event of a hitch/ball/ball mount or tow bar failure the toad will be contained by the RV... in my case a large, heavy, 3 axle with brakes on all, MH. If something breaks and your toad is no longer connected to the RV via safety cables is the consensus a break away switch is enough? A toad sitting in the middle of the roadway is not an acceptable scenario for me. Curious also about how most of you have your breakaway set to engage? With full vehicle separation, or a set distance from becoming uncoupled?

I use one of the original 10000# Blue Ox Aventa tow bars. This discussion has piqued my interest so I researched the original owners manual here: http://blueox.com/uploads/docs/bx7330.pdf I find it most interesting that it specifically mentions safety cables/chains and rear lighting for the toad but there is no mention of aux brakes? Is this merely an oversight?

A toad that is less than 10% of the GCWR of a large, tag axle MH warrants a completely different discussion than towing a 5000# vehicle behind a small class C. Some of the posts here seem to apply the same laws of physics and rationale to all RV's regardless of circumstance or variation; ie, weight ratio, number of braking axles and tires, type of brakes drum/disc/abs, correct use of jake brake, etc. The formulas that have been provided seemed to be based on the most common MH's; 30000#'s or so, two axle, and no mention of brake system type. I would be most interested in seeing a formula for a tag axle coach with disc brakes, proper jake usage, and ABS for comparison.

90% of my normal MH braking is done with the jake brake via a pedal on the floor. The service brake is used only to bring the coach to a full stop or in an emergency or panic stop. Does the toad aux brake make any difference in stopping my MH/toad? Not any that I can discern after 14 years in all type of conditions other than it's there if anyone wants to look. However, a lighter, shorter rig with 1/3 less braking available, no jake brake, and the same size toad... absolutely.

The discussion is do we "really need" an aux brake. The answer depends on factors that aren't consistent across the wide range of use making a definitive finding impossible. I use one because you can never have enough braking capacity and I sleep better knowing I've done everything possible to maximize safety on the road.

Just my observation...

[TwelveVolt]

It seems we can find a YouTube video on almost any topic imaginable. I don't know how many times I have had a device break, and sure enough, there is a video showing somebody fixing exactly the same problem on the same model.

Why are there no videos on the RV's and brakes we are discussing? Plenty of how-to installations, but no performance tests. Surely somebody must be testing these things. A manufacturer would be proud to show how well their product works. Unless...

AEB (Autonomous Emergency Braking) safety system test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxEiQ_2uQuY

How disappointed are the Mercedes owners who bought into the marketing hype about their new magic brake?

Can your MH do this?

Armored Vehicle Does 60mph Brake Test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwEo5OHHoKE

It's all very nice to hear the hype at the rally booth, but solid evidence would be much more convincing.

What happens to a free-range toad, with or without brakes? Since the steering is unlocked, what happens if one tire runs over some spare parts or the arm drags? Should the systems include a device that pulls the steering toward the right shoulder? Would it do any good, given the wide range of possible circumstances surrounding the cause of the break-away?

[IMDSailor]

This is and sadly it seems will always be a circular debate. Those that do believe will never convince those that don't. A few other debates of this nature come to mind.
I'd like to frame it in a different context from the requirement, dependability, reliability for just a sec. Let think about a couple of space shuttles, both of which were horrifically brought down by the failure of arguably the least expensive parts on the shuttle. S#|+ happens and when it does it ain't pretty. If it can happen to these multi billion machines which are PDI'ed by people with exponentially more education than those who build our buckets of bolts it can happen to us. My thought is were just damn lucky that it doesn't happen more frequently. As I've said before luck, and playing the odds is for the casino not for a house and it's tow hurtling down the highway at 60mph.
The laws of probability and physics are absolute and don't lie.


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[Mich F]

Originally Posted by tedgard01

I believed that the OP was asking a serious question that he wanted to discuss.

Ted

I have to disagree with that statement. I feel the OP started this thread this to let everyone know that he has been pulling a toad since 1987, and has never used or needed a braking system. I never got the feeling he was asking for a discussion. He obviously never will have brakes on a toad. His only concession to the benefits of having brakes is in the opening post, where he says that maybe it's safer to have a braking system, but then counters that by stating he's never had a problem stopping.
To those who have mentioned the "what if's" that could happen, the OP in subsequent posts, has accused them of fear mongering.
As others have mentioned all kinds of things can and do go wrong. Some are preventable, others are not. Others have brought up the fact that not all towing combinations are equal. The diesel pusher pulling a toad without brakes is a totally different animal than the typical non DP pulling a toad without brakes.
Again, there are plenty of threads where people are seeking discussion, but I don't see this thread as one of them.
Why do I continue posting on this thread ?
I don't pull a toad, but I am fully aware of the benefits of having functioning brakes on a trailer, when you're exceeding the braking capabilities of the towing vehicle, if that trailer didn't have brakes.

[greystroke]

I feel the OP did want to discuss this. I hope there is enough in this thread to change his mind.

For years I pulled a trailer/5er with a Ford truck. I honestly felt that GCWR of a truck meant both the pulling and stopping ability of the vehicle. After a at length discussion in one the diesel forums I learned that this was not true for braking. Ford assumes you will have supplementary braking if your trailer is over a specific weight. I can find this no where in the specs but the arguments were convincing with some supporting evidence. It wasn't that important to me then because RV trailers had electric brakes and brake-away protection.

But then I bought the MH and pondered about getting an expensive supplementary brake. I remembered the previous discussion so I assumed the GCWR of a MH would be basically the same logic as a truck. So it was a no brainer decision for me to get the brake buddy.

So I think the OP does want a discussion and is looking for a reason to continue his methods. But if he researched what GCWR is by calling mfgs and factories and talking with the design engineers he may find he is wrong.

I would like to see "fear mongering" change to "peace of mind people"

[tedgard01]

Well, Ramzfan (the OP) has continued to comment, so he must still be interested in what is being said.


Ted

[Thunderfoot]

Originally Posted by Mich F

...I don't pull a toad, but I am fully aware of the benefits of having functioning brakes on a trailer, when you're exceeding the braking capabilities of the towing vehicle, if that trailer didn't have brakes.

Mitch, I don't see anyone on this thread that disagrees with your statement. The discussion, at least to me, revolves around when are you exceeding the braking capabilities of your combo?

IMDSailor, "The laws of probability and physics are absolute and don't lie." And further, all MH's don't share the same braking capabilities nor will they all stop in the same distance from a predetermined rate of speed.

[njs42]

I drive conservatively and carefully but I always wondered really if my toad braking system would work in an emergency. It did.

[IMDSailor]

Originally Posted by tedgard01

Well, Ramzfan (the OP) has continued to comment, so he must still be interested in what is being said.


Ted

Personally I believe his question was disingenuous. While he has continued to post his posts don't follow the logic of his question. Many people have posted logical, reasoned arguments, and have cited various legal statutes. His responses have been argumentative and condescending at best.
I feel his responses are nothing more than to attempt to justify his actions or stir the pot, not to actually find an answer to question he posed.

I can only hope that this thread can help a fellow RV'er who is genuinely interested in this serious issue.


Sent from my iPhone using iRV2 - RV Forum

[ChallengerRN]

Might be like a thread I saw yesterday where someone was bragging about how many post they had on their thread they started.

And if you went back an read it a good part of the post were from the person that started it. . Lol

But as to brakes on toad I say that if you don't want to use them maybe good idea to buy a unit and set it in place so it look like you have one. I've seen them at RV. scrap yard go $20

Russell

[Gordon Dewald]

Matters not whether the OP has a braking system or not. If he does not he will not likely add one, if he does he may just wanted to stir the pot.

Regardless the discussion has been great for any new comer to RV'ing in that they will know what to do when they are setting up their rig.

The OP has given me a thread that has been quite entertaining and provided a knowledge stream that has been worthwhile.

[Thunderfoot]

An interesting read on the legal requirements (listed per state with links to state statutes where available) of aux brakes on toads. If it's accurate it certainly sheds new light on the legal, negligence, and insurance coverage discussions that abound. Hopefully it's not a repost but I haven't seen it in my research. Thanks to member isa for providing this link on another thread.

Toad Brake Requirements

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by Thunderfoot

An interesting read on the legal requirements (listed per state with links to state statutes where available) of aux brakes on toads. If it's accurate it certainly sheds new light on the legal, negligence, and insurance coverage discussions that abound. Hopefully it's not a repost but I haven't seen it in my research. Thanks to member isa for providing this link on another thread.

Toad Brake Requirements

But the salesman said...

Does anybody know how these braking distances are determined? From manufacturers' specs, mathematical formulas, or actual testing at the side of the road like a sobriety test?

[Thunderfoot]

Originally Posted by TwelveVolt

But the salesman said...

Does anybody know how these braking distances are determined? From manufacturers' specs, mathematical formulas, or actual testing at the side of the road like a sobriety test?

I don't have any idea? What the industry needs is ONE, definitive, accurate, and current listing of state statutes written in layman's terms. Since this thread sucked me in I've spent hours researching the law and various state statutes (not the perceived moral or implied responsibility) just to satisfy my curiosity. Maybe I don't know where to look and I'm certainly not a barrister but you can find a document somewhere that will support any position on this issue that you'd like to further. And then trying to ascertain a definitive answer from the statutes?.... good luck there! There needs to be a concise, black and white answer that addresses each state's most recent law.

Off the soap box; headed for cooler locales in the am. I'll be checking on this thread to see if there's a resolution on the law(s) and put a period on the discussion as to what is legal, and where.

[ChallengerRN]

So how far you have to go to find cooler temp Thunderfoot?

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by Thunderfoot

I don't have any idea? What the industry needs is ONE, definitive, accurate, and current listing of state statutes written in layman's terms. Since this thread sucked me in I've spent hours researching the law and various state statutes (not the perceived moral or implied responsibility) just to satisfy my curiosity. Maybe I don't know where to look and I'm certainly not a barrister but you can find a document somewhere that will support any position on this issue that you'd like to further. And then trying to ascertain a definitive answer from the statutes?.... good luck there! There needs to be a concise, black and white answer that addresses each state's most recent law. Off the soap box; headed for cooler locales in the am. I'll be checking on this thread to see if there's a resolution on the law(s) and put a period on the discussion as to what is legal, and where.

Well, it appears that;

1) Five states; Alaska, Florida, Nevada, North Carolina and Wisconsin, have a verified brake requirement based on the towed vehicle weight.

2) Most states have a general performance requirement based on stopping distance from 20 mph. Those apply to all vehicles or to combinations of vehicles.

3) Three states; Hawaii, North Dakota and District of Columbia, have statutes that are not available online and therefore are not tabulated.

4) Most states have a reciprocating agreement with other states, meaning that they allow a person that is visiting their state, but resides in another state, to be determined found liable only under the law of the state that they reside in. Therefore, it is assumed that if you do not live in a state that already has a brake requirement, then you are probably not going to be found in violation of the law, even if the state you are in has a brake requirement. And besides, who wants to visit Alaska, Florida, Nevada, North Carolina and Wisconsin anyway.....


Ted

[Thunderfoot]

Originally Posted by ChallengerRN

So how far you have to go to find cooler temp Thunderfoot?

'Bout 1000 miles one way, is the plan... We're gonna stop @ Chama, NM, ride the train and stay a couple of days, then on to Dolores, Co to explore that area via toad. Currently it's about 20* cooler there than here. We're prepared to keep going north until we find a temperature we like but we can only be gone a few weeks. New grandbaby on the way and the DW says she will be back for the baby shower and in case stork comes early.