Do we really need a braking system in our toads?

[Francesca]

If I may, I'd like to point out that another consideration may be keeping the towed unit straight and in its lane, especially during a panic-type stop. Seems to me that brakes on the towed would go far to reduce the risk that it might react badly in such a situation, perhaps even "fishtail" enough to affect control of the RV that's pulling it.

This potential may be what's reflected in the Oregon requirement that dictates not just a maximum stopping distance, but that the whole setup must do so (here quoting) " without leaving a 12-foot wide lane " (end quote).

quoted from page 15 here

[IMDSailor]

I sent this to Myth Busters in an attempt to get an independent view of this argument.

Hi Gang, love your show. I have and idea that's perfect for you. There is a debate raging in the Recreational Vehicle (RV) community about the value for an auxiliary breaking system for a vehicle which is towed behind a Class A RV. Despite the law many argue that there is no value, or at least dubious value, in having such a system. One of the problems is that there seems to be no independent third party verification of the benefits of an aux break in the event that the tow separates from the tow vehicle. As an example of this debate please look at this link;
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f101/do-we-really-need-a-braking-system-in-our-toads-215404.html
Please be the independent Third party.

Who knows they may go for it. It would give them an opportunity to smash some expensive toys up.

[UFO Pilot]

No matter the outcome, the naysayers wouldn't be convinced. Some folks just like to argue.

[navychaps]

Originally Posted by UFO Pilot

No matter the outcome, the naysayers wouldn't be convinced. Some folks just like to argue.

Yep MBs proved a pickup gets better gas mileage with the tailgate up. Boy, that will start an argument.....

Not that that has anything to do with the present thread.

[UFO Pilot]

Originally Posted by navychaps

Yep MBs proved a pickup gets better gas mileage with the tailgate up. Boy, that will start an argument.....

Not that that has anything to do with the present thread.

I was sure the tailgate down would be better. I now keep my tailgate up!

[AggieDad]

TwelveVolt

From your post it seems as though you and I will never get past agreeing to disagree, but perhaps I can address some of your points.

1. I don't think anything I wrote was fear-mongering, but yes, I am fearful when someone has to panic stop a motorhome and has an additional 3500 - 4000 pounds pushing their coach from behind. Maybe I don't need to be, but I am - because it might just be your child or mine in front of that motorhome.
   
2. It is the law in most states. Simply put, without an auxiliary braking system you are breaking the law in many states. Yes, the requirements do vary from state to state, but we have the law even in Texas - a state not necessarily known for extra regulation!
   
3. Is the cigarette lighter receptacle really a deal-breaker for you? There are other braking options or you could just hard wire a brake system designed for the 12 volt system.
   
4. 99.999% of the time? Really? How many things in this world work with that dependability? Certainly no part of your motorhome or your toad. We would all love that, and it can be attained, but what would be the cost? If guys don't want to spend a grand, what makes you think they will spend many multiples of that for a small incremental gain in reliability? Would you settle for 99.999% at 2 sigma?

Have pleasant journeys!

[AggieDad]

RAMZFAN

Originally Posted by Ramzfan
Aggie Dad...Why do you live in Texas...? I thought people that loved making laws all lived in California...

Because not all of us who live in Texas are totally crazy.

[jmckinley]

Originally Posted by mel s

jmckinley
Where did you hear that??

The GVRW AND the GCWR of a motor vehical, (as specified by the vehicle manufacturer), are the total weights allowed for the safe operation of that particular motor vehicle.

The GVWR, (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating), is the maximum allowable LOADED weight of the vehicle ALONE.

The GCWR, (Gross Combinded Weight Rating is the maximum allowable TOTAL weightof the loaded vehicle... including whatever it is pulling AND stopping.

IMO incorrect/misleading information is worse than no information at all!
Mel
'96 Safari

I didn't hear it, I read it. Incorrect/misleading information? I don't think so, Mel.

Direct quotes from the following:

Ford 2012 F-250/350/450/550 Owner's Manual, page 256---"The braking system of the tow vehicle is rated for operation at the GVWR not GCWR."

Dodge Ram 2014 Owner's Manual, page 603 --- If the trailer weighs more than 1,000 lbs (454 kg) loaded, it should have its own brakes and they should be of adequate capacity. Failure to do this could lead to accelerated brake lining wear, higher brake pedal effort, and longer stopping distances.


Ford 2006 Owner's Guide Motorhome Class A Chassis page 48 -- "The towing vehicle braking system is rated for operation at the GVWR, not the GCWR.
Separate functioning brake systems are required for safe control of towed vehicles and trailers weighting more than 1500 Lb. (680 kg) when loaded."

Family Motor Coach Association
"The GCWR is not related to a motorhome's braking capability; it is based on the motorhome's ability to pull the towed vehicle. If the towed vehicle's weight is greater than the unbraked towing capacity of the motorhome chassis, a supplemental braking system should be considered. Some chassis manufacturers recommend that supplemental brakes be used when pulling towed vehicles that weigh as little as 1,000 pounds."

I am sure there are lots more owner's manuals with similar statements, I'm just tired of looking them up. I don't make stuff up, I do know what I'm talking about. I worked in design and development of brake systems for passenger car, light truck and heavy truck vehicles for most of my career. I sat on SAE committees that created the standards and recommended test procedures for brake systems. I have worked for a major truck manufacturer and for three major suppliers of brakes and brake systems, in some cases at the VP of Engineering level.

The laws of physics don't lie. Given adequate brakes to lock the wheels, stopping distance is limited by traction. If your MH will stop in 200 ft from 60 mph at the limit of brake lockup, sticking an unbraked vehicle on the back will increase the stopping distance by the ratio of the total weight to the weight of the tow vehicle. So on my 16,000# MH with 3,500# toad, the stopping distance will be increased to 244 ft. That's 44 ft more and that's a lot.

If you have a 30,000# diesel pusher and stick the same unbraked car on the back, the distance increases to 223 feet. Not as much as the lighter MH, but still a lot.

If you're on wet asphalt or concrete it gets a lot worse. 102 ft increase for the light motorhome and 53 ft for the big rig.

And none of the above gets into what should be the obvious instability of an unbraked trailing vehicle.

[earlylynn]

Get a brake system. Avoid all the electric and hydraulic ones. Buy a ReadyBrute from NSA or find an old Blue Ox AutoStop (I haven't seen a new one). Most reliable and least expensive units on the market.

Earl

[tedgard01]

Another point toward a good reason for having a break system on the toad. I have seen where someone did not have a break system and they experienced a quick stop due to an accident in front of them. The toad kept traveling at the original speed and ended up going under the rear end of the RV. When you are traveling at freeway speeds and have to perform a emergency stop, without a breaking system, you have a 4,000+ lbs projectile heading at the rear of your RV.


Ted

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by tedgard01

Another point toward a good reason for having a break system on the toad. I have seen where someone did not have a break system and they experienced a quick stop due to an accident in front of them. The toad kept traveling at the original speed and ended up going under the rear end of the RV. When you are traveling at freeway speeds and have to perform a emergency stop, without a breaking system, you have a 4,000+ lbs projectile heading at the rear of your RV.


Ted

Is it possible that the situation you describe was aggravated by the owner not using a drop hitch to keep the tow bar horizontal? When he hit the MH brakes, the nose went down and the tail went up. If the tow bar was already pointing up from a low car to a high hitch on a gasser, the added angle would allow the car to get under.

[1mainiac]

Trailer Brakes Required - Federal DOT law

As you may note that the DOT as others have pointed out have multiple rules. This applies to us also note that they state 40% of towing vehicle weight so a 2000lb car towing a 800 lb trailer would require brakes. Among the many rules are exceptions for things like tow trucks. However even in the exceptions there are rules. One rule is if your towing it then it is a trailer unless it is controlled by a operator. So when your towing your buddy with a tow strap he is the operator of the second vehicle.

The break away feature is what will cost you the most if you don't have it. If your toad becomes a unguided missile on the highway who pays the bill if your operating in violation of the law? Insurance companies have lawyers if they can weasel out of paying your stuck with the bills. The defendants lawyers are going to look at your expensive RV and dig as deep into your pockets as they can.

[1mainiac]

I saw some pics several years back the toad did not go under it went over and was sitting in the bedroom of the coach. would not be good if your wife was taking a nap.

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by TwelveVolt

Is it possible that the situation you describe was aggravated by the owner not using a drop hitch to keep the tow bar horizontal? When he hit the MH brakes, the nose went down and the tail went up. If the tow bar was already pointing up from a low car to a high hitch on a gasser, the added angle would allow the car to get under.

It is possible, but if they had a braking system, the car would have stopped at the same rate of speed as the MH, which most likely would have prevented the situation.


Ted

[Chiefbvfd]

Ramzfan, Put a flashing yellow light on top of your MH, so when I see it coming, I can pull over and let you pass. I sure don't want you behind me.....:(

[TwelveVolt]

Originally Posted by tedgard01

It is possible, but if they had a braking system, the car would have stopped at the same rate of speed as the MH, which most likely would have prevented the situation.


Ted

Interesting point. Fact or myth? Remember that the toad is tailgating the MH, allowing for essentially zero reaction time. If something like this is going to happen, has it already happened by the time the aux brake engages? Does it depend on whether the toad is a Lexus, 911, or SUV?

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by TwelveVolt

Interesting point. Fact or myth? Remember that the toad is tailgating the MH, allowing for essentially zero reaction time. If something like this is going to happen, has it already happened by the time the aux brake engages? Does it depend on whether the toad is a Lexus, 911, or SUV?

In my case, this is fact. My Stay-N-Play braking system engages when I put the brake on in the RV.

Obviously there are many types of variations of the types of toads, the types of braking systems, and the variations of weight for the towing vehicle and the toad, the type of breaks on the toad, the road and weather conditions, the driver's ability and/or experiance. There are also some people that will simply chose to drive too fast, drive an RV that is pulling a toad like they would a regular passenger car, and some that will simply chose to save a few dollars versus do what they can to protect themself, their family, and their investment because that is the way they do things.


Ted

[CampDaven]

Just a ponder....
It would be interesting to know if folks that "chipped" or in other ways spent $ and increased the HP of their MH also take advantage of ways to increase braking force.
If not, they may beat me up a hill by a few seconds, but I can more effectively brake on the way down. Guess they may pass me each way!

[navychaps]

Originally Posted by CampDaven

Just a ponder....
It would be interesting to know if folks that "chipped" or in other ways spent $ and increased the HP of their MH also take advantage of ways to increase braking force.
If not, they may beat me up a hill by a few seconds, but I can more effectively brake on the way down. Guess they may pass me each way!

[Gordon Dewald]

This is an interesting thread. The question as posted is confusing IMO. Confusing you ask - in what way? Well the answer to the question is so evident from a practical standpoint that it makes me wonder if the OP just wanted to see if the pot could be stirred.

Notwithstanding the law regarding trailer brakes you would think self preservation and maintaining the blood lines would be self evident. I recall a thread where the poster was adamant that seat belt use in a MH was impractical. He maintained he was a safe driver and knew what he was doing so he allowed all passengers (including grand children) to roam freely while on the road.

Perhaps these folks are daredevils and are generously endowed with the "watch this" mentality. More likely they are trying to keep this forum alive with spirited discussions. I continue to read this thread with interest.