Do we really need a braking system in our toads?

[sirpurrcival]

Originally Posted by Ramzfan

No Drifter, I posted this because I was curious as to why I actually needed an auxiliary braking system. I have received many good answers here and many more replies from people that like to scold someone rather than answer a straight-forward question. Just because there's a law about something doesn't mean that the law is correct and that you have to follow it exactly. Perhaps you don't agree with that philosophy, but then again, half of the people voted for Obama and the other half didn't. It's called "Choices."

Like many have suggested, if for no other reason, liability is a big reason to be in compliance. I mean I know that insurance companies are the most trustworthy entities out there and that they would never use the slightest provocation to leave their customers without support but nevertheless.

Then again, why have insurance at all? So what if it is required by law. Do we really need it? What about lights? Seatbelts? I think you get the idea. You may well be able to get away with out having a braking system but if and when that catches up with you, be prepared to deal with all the adverse consequences of your decision. You have probably worked hard for what you have. Are you prepared to see it all go down the drain because you decided that "eh, I really don't agree with this law".

You are right. People have choices. Doesn't mean that they are the right choices.

[DMTTRANSPORT]

Originally Posted by TwelveVolt

In re-reading the OP, he does not appear to be questioning the expenditure in dollars, but questioning the value based on his life experience of more than two decades. When you spent your $1000, did you get $1000 of safety value, or did you trade your $1000 cow for a handful of 'safety' beans based on the promises and dire predictions of the salesman and the marketing people? If the salesman at the next RV store was offering a $2000 even safer product, would you feel a social obligation to buy that too? (marketing people, listen up)

As someone mentioned earlier, there are two distinct points.

1) Is the aux brake product necessary for safe stopping, or does the design of the MH braking system handle the additional weight adequately? When you pull out of Flying J with 700 pounds of fuel and 800 pounds of water that you didn't have when you pulled in, you have slightly increased your stopping distance, but have you made your vehicle less safe?

2) Break-away braking.

Well Put!

[navychaps]

Originally Posted by jmckinley

That's not correct. If you look in any owner's manual for any vehicle, you will see a statement like "The braking system of the tow vehicle is rated for operation at the GVWR not GCWR." The Combined Weight Rating is a factor of what the drive train can pull, not what the towing vehicle can brake.

And, just because you have a 5,000 lb hitch doesn't mean you can haul a 5,000 pound unbraked car or trailer. Trailer hitch ratings assume a braked towed vehicle.

I bow to your keen eye!

The Winnebago Operators manual I hold in my never nicotine stained hands states, "5000 lbs max, tongue weight of 350 lbs." On top of that it clearly states that it is never to exceed the GCWR (which lowers towing capacity if one is packed out loaded). Additionally the manual states "If you tow a car or trailer that weighs over 1000lbs., it must be equipped with automatically activated brakes."

That being said, the point of the OP's original post was why do we need them not are you too "cheap" to buy one.....

Hi Francesca!

[AggieDad]

That being said, the point of the OP's original post was why do we need them not are you too "cheap" to buy one.....

Yes, that is the question posed, but why not have one? To put others in danger? To flaunt the law? Just because he can? Or perhaps, because he can and save a $1000 at the same time?

[TwelveVolt]

AggieDad, You seem to be intently promoting the use of aux brakes through fear mongering and assaulting the character of anyone who questions the product, yet you have offered no scientific contribution to the topic of this thread. Are you involved in the manufacture, sale or marketing of these products?

In reviewing the web sites of some of the manufacturers, I do not see evidence of any certification by a recognizable, accredited third party who has reviewed the design and manufacturing of the product as a 'safety' device.

Suppose someone designed a hillbilly aux brake device. Lets take a pair of 2x4's and mount them parallel between the driver's seat and the brake pedal. Now put a bowling ball on this track. The vehicle stops, the bowling ball rolls forward and hits the brake. When the G force dissipates, the ball rolls back to the seat, automatically reloading for next time. Without a certification process in place, is this braking system 'legal'? It will certainly have a much lower failure rate than any electronic device.

If I am relying on a device to ensure my safety, like the brakes in my car, I want to know that it will work at least 99.999% of the time. That is to say that it will not fail more often than once in 100,000 uses. If I buy a smoke alarm, it is because I am counting on it to detect smoke and wake me up. If I buy a brake product, I am relying on it to help stop my vehicle every time I need it to. I am looking for a product that falls into something more credible than the "As seen on TV" category.

Has anyone else ever had to jiggle the cigarette lighter connector just to get a 0.25 Amp phone charger to work? This connector was designed more than half a century ago specifically for the mission critical task of lighting a cigarette. There are aux brake products on the market that rely on this connector, after being bounced down the road for 300 miles and many hours, unattended, to reliably deliver 7 to 9 amps to a braking system that is expected to contribute to the safety of you, your family, your rig and other drivers on the road. Safety? SERIOUSLY???

[mel s]

Originally Posted by jmckinley

The Combined Weight Rating is a factor of what the drive train can pull, not what the towing vehicle can brake.

jmckinley
Where did you hear that??

The GVRW AND the GCWR of a motor vehical, (as specified by the vehicle manufacturer), are the total weights allowed for the safe operation of that particular motor vehicle.

The GVWR, (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating), is the maximum allowable LOADED weight of the vehicle ALONE.

The GCWR, (Gross Combinded Weight Rating is the maximum allowable TOTAL weightof the loaded vehicle... including whatever it is pulling AND stopping.

IMO incorrect/misleading information is worse than no information at all!
Mel
'96 Safari

[MPH]

Fork over a couple hundred bucks for the electric brake control, have peace of mind and be in compliance with all state laws. I would never dream of towing anything bigger than a little red wagon without an electric brake controller. In my book ... Safety First ... period.

Mel

[chawkins99]

Another point opined by many of the aux brake supporters is that the combination will stop in a shorter distance with brakes than without.

Has this ever been officially tested by a truly independent source?

And I'm not talking about anyone with a finger in the pie, such as manufacturers of said devices or motorhome magazines who rely on advertising from said manufacturers, but a TRULY INDEPENDENT body.

I'm also not asking for anyone's opinion or the physics. Yes, logic says if 10 wheels are braking instead of 6, etc...

Show me the independent evidence.

[DMTTRANSPORT]

Originally Posted by DMTTRANSPORT

..........And no person here stating that Towing a Toad without a braking system is dangerous has ever towed a 2500 lb Boat with a 5,000 lb Pick up or is the weight ratio there a non issue? 30,000 lb + Coach towing a 5,000 lb +/- vehicle....JMO

[Ramzfan]

Originally Posted by AggieDad

Yes, that is the question posed, but why not have one? To put others in danger? To flaunt the law? Just because he can? Or perhaps, because he can and save a $1000 at the same time?

Aggie Dad...Why do you live in Texas...? I thought people that loved making laws all lived in California...

[DMTTRANSPORT]

Originally Posted by Ramzfan

Aggie Dad...Why do you live in Texas...? I thought people that loved making laws all lived in California...

[navychaps]

Originally Posted by navychaps

The Winnebago Operators manual I hold in my never nicotine stained hands states, "5000 lbs max, tongue weight of 350 lbs." On top of that it clearly states that it is never to exceed the GCWR (which lowers towing capacity if one is packed out loaded). Additionally the manual states "If you tow a car or trailer that weighs over 1000lbs., it must be equipped with automatically activated brakes."

Originally Posted by AggieDad

Yes, that is the question posed, but why not have one? To put others in danger? To flaunt the law? Just because he can? Or perhaps, because he can and save a $1000 at the same time?

The reason "I" MUST have one is because Winnebago says so (see above). I want one because I like having one. If the OP has one or not is between him and his coach manufacturer....(sounds like liability). If legally required, so be it!

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by chawkins99

Another point opined by many of the aux brake supporters is that the combination will stop in a shorter distance with brakes than without. Has this ever been officially tested by a truly independent source? And I'm not talking about anyone with a finger in the pie, such as manufacturers of said devices or motorhome magazines who rely on advertising from said manufacturers, but a TRULY INDEPENDENT body. I'm also not asking for anyone's opinion or the physics. Yes, logic says if 10 wheels are braking instead of 6, etc... Show me the independent evidence.

Haha.... I am not laughing at you, just the idea that sometimes people use the "no scientific proof" excuse to justify their protest against something that is obvious.

Obviously you have not tried one yet. Just try one and you can see the difference immediately. If you have any good breaking system (I have both a BreakBuddy and a Stay-N-Play), and you have the sensitivity adjusted correctly, the stopping power is not something that you have to wonder about, you can directly feel the difference.

As an example;

Simply try going down a 6%+ grade, without any toad and without the breaking system, get up to say 45 or 50 mph and then put the breaks on to slow down to 30 mph as quickly as you can.

Then try the same thing with a 4,000+ lbs toad attached and without the breaking system. You will easily see how it feels to be pushed along by an extra 4,000+ lbs.

Next, try it with the same toad attached and using a properly installed breaking system.

You will not need to have any other independent study to tell you that the weight of the toad is taken off the MH and that you are easily able to stop much quicker with the breaking system attached.

Even try this on flat ground, just going at normal traffic speed and stopping at a stop sign.

You will not need anyone to prove to you that with a breaking system, you can stop quicker and with far greater control then without one.


Ted

[navychaps]

Is this accurate?

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by navychaps

Is this accurate?

Sure, I proved it.... Lol


Ted

[TwelveVolt]

Here is an interesting and relevant video on automobile braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGkKDaYd3Mo

[tankcj]

Originally Posted by tankcj

I tow a car hauler with electric brakes and I always test the brakes by applying full power (bias) to the controller before every trip. I am usually doing about 15-20 mph when I do this and I can barely feel the trailer braking even though both axles are skidding (I have brakes on both axles). I am pretty sure that even in a panic stop, those trailer brakes aren't going to affect my stopping distance by much, but every little bit helps and if the trailer ever came lose from the coach, I'd like to know that the brakes are gonna be applied...and like maniac stated...it's the law.

In case anyone search this site is looking for specific links to these laws, I wanted to add a link to the CA DMV site that states....

"In California, brakes are required on any trailer coach or camp trailer having a gross weight of 1500 lbs. or more".

Towing Your Trailer Safely

...and here is another link to individual state laws...

State Towing Laws for RVs

[tedgard01]

Originally Posted by tankcj

I tow a car hauler with electric brakes and I always test the brakes by applying full power (bias) to the controller before every trip. I am usually doing about 15-20 mph when I do this and I can barely feel the trailer braking even though both axles are skidding (I have brakes on both axles). I am pretty sure that even in a panic stop, those trailer brakes aren't going to affect my stopping distance by much, but every little bit helps and if the trailer ever came lose from the coach, I'd like to know that the brakes are gonna be applied...and like maniac stated...it's the law.

Have you considered that the breaks that are currently installed on your trailer may be inadequate for the weight and/or the tires are too small as well.

Obviously this would not at all compare to a 4,000+ lbs toad that is being flat toad with full size wide tires and disk breaks on all four tires.


Ted

[tankcj]

Originally Posted by tedgard01

Have you considered that the breaks that are currently installed on your trailer may be inadequate for the weight and/or the tires are too small as well.

Obviously this would not at all compare to a 4,000+ lbs toad that is being flat toad with full size wide tires and disk breaks on all four tires.


Ted

How would they be inadequate if they can lock the tires up? The tires are factory specified for the weight that the trailer is certified for (205/75R15) .

The point I was trying to make is that with a 7k lb load, my 34k lb coach barely knows there is a load and the brakes don't really help that much...kinda like a 3/4 ton truck towing a motorcycle or waverunner trailer.

[IMDSailor]

Originally Posted by TwelveVolt

Here is an interesting and relevant video on automobile braking.

Great video, thanks for posting.


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