Level Best pump sounds like it is loosing power when pushing jacks down

[PrairieDog]

Hello. We have a new to us 2008 32ft Winnebago Voyage Class A motorhome. When we arrived here on Sunday the levelling jacks malfunctioned.

Although the unit has AutoLevel the Manual recommends manual levelling with engine running and parking brake on.

The recommended sequence is to use a level and level side to side first then front to rear then stabilize if one of the jacks has not been activated in the levelling procedure.

In this procedure the jacks function in pairs with one going down faster than the other. When it reaches the ground and pressure builds on it the other jack in the pair goes down faster until it is on the ground then together they raise the motorhome.

This time it started out good then the pump sound slowed down until it sounded almost stopped. The jacks had only descended a short distance.

I let off the switch for about a minute and tried it again. Again is sounded normal then the pump sound diminished. The jacks had only extended a bit further.

After 3 or 4 attempts one of the pair of jacks reached the ground.

I tried all four pair combinations with the same results.

Tips from this forum I have tried are:
1. Checked battery. Chassis battery with the engine shut off is 12.7v. Coach batter is 13.5v.
2. Disconnected the dash control for a few minutes to reboot.
3. Fluid level is good.
4. Tried the remote switch in the wet bay.
5. There have never been any indications of leaks on the ground that I have noticed until this time. A small amount came out of the tank after I retracted all jacks the first time. I don't know how this is possible as the top mark on the dipstick is more than 2 inches from the top of the tank.

I look forward to hearing your experiences.
Thank you.

[Morich]

Maybe we can start in reverse order to get some points cleared?
Fluid level is vital, so how to check it is important and that may be something to redo/ recheck.
The level goes down as jacks are extended. The pump takes fluid out of the tank and into the lines and jacks to extend them. Then it does it in reverse to retract them.
The point being that if fluid came out of the tank, it is likely there was too much in the system.
One way too much fluid might be in the system is if the level was checked when the jacks are extended! Easy to think the level is low if checking when a bunch of fluid was not in the tank but in the extended jacks!
I think this is likely true for the system you have but do check the manual on how the fluid should be checked.

And that may lead to the other problems? If the fluid level is not correct, the jacks don't work right. It may be a case where the pump sound changes as it meets different situations. When it has fluid to pump, it sounds different than when it is sucking air?

Maybe it is all as simple as getting the correct amount of fluid?
Always possible there is a real problem with equipment but I find it much easier to make sure I'm reading the manual right and then doing what I read!

Not saying it is certain that this is true, but I admit to being wrong so many times that I now just accept it!

[Jim_HiTek]

After following Morich's advice:

I had a similar problem years ago with my new2me HWH system that hadn't gotten much exercise from the PO. And it was a 14 yo system when I bought. What I did was to lube the jack shafts with the recommended lubricant, than run the jacks up/down 2-3 times, wait an hour or two and do it again. Did that all day and at the end of the day, the jacks were performing to expectations. Dunno if that's gunna work for the OP, but, couldn't hurt.

I did end up noticing the rise times weren't up to spec (manufacturer has a timing chart for jack timing at ambient temps) so bought a set of springs using the new HWH p/n, from eBay. That helped a lot since HWH had released a upgrade for them and the new springs did the trick for bringing the jacks back up in a reasonable time, and to the top of their travel.

And 7 years later, they still work fine.

[Morich]

Maybe a combo of what we each have said?
I was thinking it might be like bleeding the brakes? Maybe need to clear air out of the lines by running them up and down several times?

[Jim_HiTek]

Originally Posted by Morich

Maybe a combo of what we each have said?
I was thinking it might be like bleeding the brakes? Maybe need to clear air out of the lines by running them up and down several times?

YES! That reminded me of what I'd suspected years ago when I performed the up/down trick and it seemed to help. It seems that it removed air from the system. I remember now that I even spotted some bubbles floating on the surface of the ATF in the tank afterwards.

[Ray,IN]

I suspect your battery bank to which the hyd. pump motor is attached is weak or failing, a low voltage problem. Have you have them load tested recently?
Since the pump reservoir is not pressurized, and has a breather cap; if the system was over-filled at any point, retracting the jacks would push the excess out the breather opening.
Kwikee Level Best Leveling system operation guide
Kwikee leveling system technical information
Kwikee leveling system service guide

[PrairieDog]

Thank you for your suggestions.

It is my understanding the chassis battery provides power to the levelling jacks motor as it is recommended to have the engine running during jack extension & retraction.

The chassis battery went stone dead back in June. We were parked for an extended period and parasitic devices killed it. We recharged it and it has been starting the engine good since and the levelling jacks had been operating good as well.

It appears that Lippert acquired Kwikee. Would someone at Lippert be able to tell me what the load voltage is suppose to be when extending the jacks so I can do a proper load test? I could not find this in the manuals.

Thank you.

[Morich]

Load and battery voltages sound so simple but can get us into too much thinking at times!
One of the problem with a spec on how much current the jacks will take is that they can set a max likely but that actual amount will change when things like the temperature change. Stiff cold jacks will likely take more current than at other times.

And then batteries are almost always something that seem simple but trick us in lots of ways. Simple age is one but how often and how far we run them totally flat is a big thing but also how long we leave them down. Knowing the history of batteries is only somewhat helpful, so they have load tests that they can run using small portable tools that automotive parts shops will often run for free.
Idea is to get the battery charged for long enough to feel it is certain to be charged, then they put a dummy load on and see how it holds up. Still kind of a "guessitmate" but kind of the standard used?

The good part of starting the RV engine before trying to start heavy power users like jacks, slides, or generator starting is that they all work better with less question of overheating if we give them good power.
One way to get good power is when we start the RV engine which usually starts faster as we do it more often. That has automatic items to connect the engine alternator and chassis batteries together with the coach batteries. We can then run the other things like cranking the generator as long as we need without the battery voltage getting down.
Motors, etc. are far more often damaged by working with low voltage than if we get an odd thing like a spike! One of the weird things we see is people talk about a spike came along and killed their motor of some sort? More likely they are the victim of the motor trying to start with low voltage that gradually damaged it over time and when it finally fails, we thing the storm we had two days ago killed it!

It's all a big mystery at times!

[PrairieDog]

With the engine running the chassis battery is 14.2 volts and the coach battery is 13.7 volts.

Powering the jacks to extend caused the chassis battery to drop between 3 to 4 volts.

Powering the jacks to extend caused the coach battery to fluctuate less than 1 volt.

Retracting the jacks has the same effect on voltage.

[Jim_HiTek]

Originally Posted by PrairieDog

With the engine running the chassis battery is 14.2 volts and the coach battery is 13.7 volts.

Powering the jacks to extend caused the chassis battery to drop between 3 to 4 volts.

Powering the jacks to extend caused the coach battery to fluctuate less than 1 volt.

Retracting the jacks has the same effect on voltage.

The alternator charging voltages sound normal though they should be closer to the same value. The 3-4 volt drop though is rather high. Mine only drop 0.8 to 1.2 volts typical. But, your battery was badly damaged when it was fully discharged so that might be affecting that drop. Still, when mine were fully discharged a couple times, I limped along with those chassis batts for years after discovering there was no charging of them when on shore power (other than the small scam 8 watt solar panel on the roof). Fixed that by adding a float charger. Used those batts another 6 years or so and the AUX start switch to start the engine.

Retracting the jacks should not change the voltage much as it's only one solenoid that operates and no motor. (Unless you have one of those Powered down/Powered up systems?). Your reading again could be related to the hurt batts.

Assuming I read your post correctly. Also watching the Oregon Ducks game.

[Morich]

Quote:
With the engine running the chassis battery is 14.2 volts and the coach battery is 13.7 volts.

I would think of this as a sign that there are corroded cables. Since this are connected together using the large "normal" battery cables, there should be very little loss between two batteries connected together.
The coach battery reading above 13 says you are getting them connected as it is too high for the normal resting voltage but not as high as the 14.2 out of the alternator that the chassis battery is getting.
It Is possible for the problem to be corroded contacts in the solenoid but the far more common and easier to fix is just simple cables corroded.

One way to look for where the power is being lost is to check the voltage going in on the left side of the solenoid when the engine is running. In this case, you should see the 14.2 then go to the right side big lug and that is where the power is coming out to the coach batteries and should be very near if not exactly the same as the other side.
Do this by checking the lug itself, not the cable attached to the lug.
If the second reading matches the first almost exactly, THEN move to the metal of the cable and it should be the same reading on a good clean connection.
with a decent digital meter and getting good contact, a few hundreds of volt is okay but you are showing a loss of a full half volt!
Too much for good cables.

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by PrairieDog

Thank you for your suggestions.

It is my understanding the chassis battery provides power to the levelling jacks motor as it is recommended to have the engine running during jack extension & retraction.

The chassis battery went stone dead back in June. We were parked for an extended period and parasitic devices killed it. We recharged it and it has been starting the engine good since and the levelling jacks had been operating good as well.

It appears that Lippert acquired Kwikee. Would someone at Lippert be able to tell me what the load voltage is suppose to be when extending the jacks so I can do a proper load test? I could not find this in the manuals.

Thank you.

Lippert is telling you, in one of the hot links I posted. You just need to take the time to self-edcuate.

[PrairieDog]

Thank you.

On another forum my wife found someone with the exact same symptoms. They drained and removed the hydraulic fluid reservoir to find a fine mesh screen on the pump suction line in the fluid reservoir had collapsed. Removing the fluid reservoir required disconnecting the entire pump/reservoir assembly from the chassis to get to the last screw of the fluid reservoir. I am going to take a smaller step which is to drain the fluid from the reservoir to remove what might be on the bottom of the reservoir that could be plugging the screen. I will post the results. Thank you.

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by PrairieDog

Thank you.

On another forum my wife found someone with the exact same symptoms. They drained and removed the hydraulic fluid reservoir to find a fine mesh screen on the pump suction line in the fluid reservoir had collapsed. Removing the fluid reservoir required disconnecting the entire pump/reservoir assembly from the chassis to get to the last screw of the fluid reservoir. I am going to take a smaller step which is to drain the fluid from the reservoir to remove what might be on the bottom of the reservoir that could be plugging the screen. I will post the results. Thank you.

Yup, if a screen is plugged/stopped up the fluid is dirty and contaminated anyway and should be replaced after the tank is cleaned out.