Kwikie Steps: Will Not Stay Extended

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

First thing for me to admit is that I have never seen or checked on any drawing to see what makes the steps and controller work, so much can be a guess!
But then I wonder if it is true that 12volt full time is needed to make the step stay out???

Yes, If 12v is not supplied meaning switch is Open (On) there is no voltage and Steps Controller is FULLY Automatic. So steps will always retract when door is closed. (Of course that assumes if working properly)

One reason for me to have questions on that is the trouble I had getting them to stay IN when I want to work on the batteries. If I am changing batteries and have the coach and start batteries disconnected, the steps always stayed out and in my way----if remembered correctly.

That is true. But not the same scenario / question asked earlier. If door is open, the steps will always be EXTENDED, even with mr problems mine will always extend when door is opened. When / if you disconnect the chassis battery power is lost so steps cannot retract no matter what you do. Do do what you are seeking you need to go inside the RV, shut the door, steps will retract, disconnect battery, open door, don't fall get out of coach and you can work with steps out of your way, but don't connect the power or you may get your legs sheared? I changed my batteries several months ago and I needed those steps to give me leverage, but I can see if you just wanted to stand on the ground.

Does the controller need 12VDC full time to keep the step in one location, in or out? I would say yes but maybe not worded they way you state. If the controller sees 12vdc on input line from the switch; and no signal that the ignition switch is on, then it WILL NOT RETRACT the steps when door is closed.

That would mean a full time drain on battery when we store it and might explain why so many have trouble keeping the battery charged, if the step is a full time drain besides just the light being on??

First this is chassis battery only, 2nd while it has 12vdc supplied, I don't think there is any draw unless the 12vdc on the switch supplied line drops and then it will immediate retract the steps. This is actually a good thing because the steps would always be retracted before a full loss of chassis battery

I would go out and test by pulling the negative cables off batteries to see what happens but I am very relieved to say the Rv has just been picked up by a new owner---after several months of playing games with a dealer who turned out to be less than honest!
AND this time the money actually shows up in our bank rather than a promise that there is some kind of funky paperwork holdup!

Are you saying you sold your RV?

Attached is a drawings that may help illustrate and the actual Owners Manual.

https://lci-support-doc.s3.amazonaws...cd_0001626.pdf

Go to page 9 Fig 3

[dkoldman]

The Voltage at the switch mysteriously is at 12.46 volts and steps are working properly again

The only thing different was that I took the switch cover plate off to check voltage behind the wiring. I think after several hours it will eventually retract again by itself.

[deckape]

Remove and clean the ground . It's always the ground.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by deckape

Remove and clean the ground . It's always the ground.

I was working with Power Gear support and the entire thing stopped working

Steps are now stuck out and will not retract PERIOD I am waiting to see what they do as they say the controller needs replacing.

I have trip to Colorado in two weeks, but I am now grounded until this is fixed unless there is simple override to bring it in.

The ground wires look clean though.

[Morich]

I'm running way short of ideas but noticed one small thing on page five that might give a clue to why some of the odd timing things "might" be happening.

Are you familiar with capacitors and how they operate somewhat like a balloon stretched across a pipe? Odd things that get used in all kinds of ways but the general idea is that when we compare it to water, it is easier to see.

If we had a hose with a balloon stretched across the middle and turn on the water, water will flow in at the faucet, make the balloon stretch until it reaches it's max stretch and at the same time water will be pushed out the hose end but stop when the balloon stops stretching. But if we cut off the pressure at the faucet, the balloon will gradually force water back until the balloon is no longer stretched and then just lay there.
Lots of design for how much and how strong the balloon and how much it should leak off goes into the whole design but that's way above me !

I see in this snip of the instructions on page five that you may get a spark as the control "charges" but they expect that. Capacitors often do that as they are first connected to power. Current flows until the cap is "full" and then no current flows until the charge in the capacitor leaks or bleeds off, which "resets" things to let current flow again if power is put back on!

The part on page five makes me think they are charging a capacitor in the control unit and the part from page four says the current flow is very important in it's sensing what to do.

So is it possible that there is a capacitor that is either not taking as much charge or it is leaking that charge away when it should not? Since you have chased the idea of the power falling off and wired around that idea and it still happens, maybe part of the confusing action is due to the capacitor being charged and acting differently at different times, depending on how long you have left it alone??

I've looked at that test procedure and it's not one I would really want to do but it may be the only way to sort something with as many twists as this story has. Something that keeps changing is a hard one to figure.

Kind of like the story on my Rv ownership you ask about? We bought a Thor, found we did not like it so traded for the Vista, only to suddenly have a son with the results of long term, poorly diagnosed Covid, which has become a problem with three leaking heart valves at 52 and a wife who also has "brain fog" that makes her less reliable than needed. They had Covid in January of 2020 before anybody knew much and there was no testing.

So instead of our children taking care of us as we need it, we are now setting up to care for them IF/When there is ICU space available in Missouri. Currently heart surgery is termed "elective" and they can't get a date set as it gets set and then changes.
Just on hold and chasing phantoms?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

Kind of like the story on my Rv ownership you ask about? We bought a Thor, found we did not like it so traded for the Vista, only to suddenly have a son with the results of long term, poorly diagnosed Covid, which has become a problem with three leaking heart valves at 52 and a wife who also has "brain fog" that makes her less reliable than needed. They had Covid in January of 2020 before anybody knew much and there was no testing.

So instead of our children taking care of us as we need it, we are now setting up to care for them IF/When there is ICU space available in Missouri. Currently heart surgery is termed "elective" and they can't get a date set as it gets set and then changes.
Just on hold and chasing phantoms?

Wishing the best for your son and family It can just be a joy to have family that are willing to make sacrifices for one another no matter the cost. I know a guy in his late 50s who just had open bypass surgery a little while ago and he goes back to work Monday of next week. Enjoy the moments.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

I'm running way short of ideas but noticed one small thing on page five that might give a clue to why some of the odd timing things "might" be happening.

Are you familiar with capacitors and how they operate somewhat like a balloon stretched across a pipe? Odd things that get used in all kinds of ways but the general idea is that when we compare it to water, it is easier to see.

If we had a hose with a balloon stretched across the middle and turn on the water, water will flow in at the faucet, make the balloon stretch until it reaches it's max stretch and at the same time water will be pushed out the hose end but stop when the balloon stops stretching. But if we cut off the pressure at the faucet, the balloon will gradually force water back until the balloon is no longer stretched and then just lay there.
Lots of design for how much and how strong the balloon and how much it should leak off goes into the whole design but that's way above me !

I see in this snip of the instructions on page five that you may get a spark as the control "charges" but they expect that. Capacitors often do that as they are first connected to power. Current flows until the cap is "full" and then no current flows until the charge in the capacitor leaks or bleeds off, which "resets" things to let current flow again if power is put back on!

The part on page five makes me think they are charging a capacitor in the control unit and the part from page four says the current flow is very important in it's sensing what to do.

So is it possible that there is a capacitor that is either not taking as much charge or it is leaking that charge away when it should not? Since you have chased the idea of the power falling off and wired around that idea and it still happens, maybe part of the confusing action is due to the capacitor being charged and acting differently at different times, depending on how long you have left it alone??

I've looked at that test procedure and it's not one I would really want to do but it may be the only way to sort something with as many twists as this story has. Something that keeps changing is a hard one to figure.

The capacitor may be good explanation. After a few hours the steps started working again. So I go from freaking out because it was stuck extended, not retracting even when engine running and door closed, to now it is back working again. I buttoned everything up hoping to get through the weekend. It may be why Power Gear said the controller need to be replaced.

[dkoldman]

Well it is back to normally not working again The original problem that is meaning, that everything about the steps is working properly but I cannot get the steps to stay extended when door is shut and ignition off.

It really may be the controller and hopefully power gear will send me one, but I think I have a random power loss from 12vdc down to 5 - 7vdc on the input line to the switch.

When time permits, I think I am going to put my breaker back in place and create a new wire feed with my 5 amp inline fuse to feed the switch direct from Chassis battery top see what happens. I am kind of scared to do much right now out of fear of what happened yesterday with Power Gear when the entire thing shutdown and it was extended out.... we could NOT get in back in so the RV was undrivable !!!

[macnut]

I had to replace my controller once. In my case, it would not let the steps retract. We had to stay at an oceanfront RV space an extra day before we could get help…life is rough. :-) I hope a new controller will fix your issue as well. Wishing you the best of luck!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by macnut

I had to replace my controller once. In my case, it would not let the steps retract. We had to stay at an oceanfront RV space an extra day before we could get help…life is rough. :-) I hope a new controller will fix your issue as well. Wishing you the best of luck!

What you described is what happened to me yesterday. Power Gear is to get back with me on replacement controller so I would have been stranded for while, but I think they have procedure to force it in with a drill?

In my case I got it to eventually come back in last night. But I am still with the problem of why it works erratically. I use RV at home a lot, tailgate a lot so I need my steps to stay extended when I turn that switch off.

[Morich]

One more question /suggestion?

What about the switch to cutoff the power to the steps is not working as expected? If you have not gone there yet, what would it take to pull the switch out to get to the wires on back?
It looks like the switch may be just a simple two wire type, so would there be enough value in taking the switch out and either tying them together or taking them off the switch when you want to close or open the switch?

Not knowing what is inside the switch, does it seem even possible that the part you touch to move might not actually be changing the contacts inside? Making the connection sometimes or breaking it sometimes but not doing either ALL the time would be one way to totally confuse things??? But if you do the connections yourself, you could know for sure that the switch is not a part of the trouble?
I'm thinking a set of small clips on a jumper might be handy.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

One more question /suggestion?

What about the switch to cutoff the power to the steps is not working as expected? If you have not gone there yet, what would it take to pull the switch out to get to the wires on back?
It looks like the switch may be just a simple two wire type, so would there be enough value in taking the switch out and either tying them together or taking them off the switch when you want to close or open the switch?

Not knowing what is inside the switch, does it seem even possible that the part you touch to move might not actually be changing the contacts inside? Making the connection sometimes or breaking it sometimes but not doing either ALL the time would be one way to totally confuse things??? But if you do the connections yourself, you could know for sure that the switch is not a part of the trouble?
I'm thinking a set of small clips on a jumper might be handy.

Yes I verified the switch early on. I took the entire unit out the wall plate. Verified ER as source wire from breaker and ES as output wire to controller.

The switch has good continuity and will open /close when contact is made flipping the switch. Voltage from ER is always same as ES wire going out.

I have been able to randomly detect low voltage 4 - 7 vdc on the ER input wire to the switch. That is why I did not believe the issue was with the controller.

Beyond the most recent issue where it had stopped altogether, the original problem was only the fact that steps would NOT STAY extended when shut and Switch off meaning 12vdc supplied on ES wire.

So my hunt has been to find what would cause the voltage to drop from 12vdv to less than 7vdc? I thought it was the breaker because it worked for a while with breaker bypassed. But it randomly will retract even with breaker bypassed. I plan to eventually put my OEM breaker back in place.

Maybe it is something happening with the controller? Maybe it is getting false signal elsewhere? I am thinking about taking my 5 amp inline fuse holder and wiring direct from the battery to the switch.

It is frustrating because at this moment this morning everything is working like it is suppose to. It has gone 2 full days staying extended with switch off.

[dkoldman]

It has now been almost 4 days and it is working like it is suppose to

I happened to talk to my Winnebago Dealer about something else and they told me should it occur again to make a video and send to them.
Remember has always worked until a few weeks ago.

A random issue is the worst kind to have.

[Morich]

Interesting idea of making a video but what is one supposed to show?
The best idea I have comes from watching the Geico ads where he has a flat tire????
Maybe you are ready for that action!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

Interesting idea of making a video but what is one supposed to show?
The best idea I have comes from watching the Geico ads where he has a flat tire????
Maybe you are ready for that action!

I have not seen the Geico ad with flat tire? So you gonna make sit down and watch some commercials

If it occurs again, I could make video where I show the switch is OFF and then close the door. If the steps retract they know it is not working properly.

It may be all that a dealer needs to deal with mfg? The RV Dealer brought up angle no one has mentioned and that it could be the motor? idk, but glad it is working at this moment. I got two trips planned within next 4 weeks, so I may leave it along until that is over before touching anything else. If it flares up again, I will make video and get it back to Dealer later October.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Morich

Interesting idea of making a video but what is one supposed to show?
The best idea I have comes from watching the Geico ads where he has a flat tire????
Maybe you are ready for that action!

The steps were retracted this morning. So it goes 4 days before the failure, so something happened overnight?

I pull out the camera to make video recording the switch being set to OFF and then closed the door. As you may have guessed when door was closed it stayed extended So my video only proves it is working

[dkoldman]

Update:

I took a pause because I had a recent trip to Colorado and I didn't want to make the issue worse because it has been a random problem.

But here is what I found.

There has to be a random voltage drop or leak on Winnebago Wire ER. That wire runs from 6 amp breaker to the Kwikie Steps On/Off Switch.

How do I know

My bypassing of the 6 amp breaker eventually proved that the 6 amp breaker was NOT the problem. The issue would still occur.

All points of ground are nice and clean with no rust; besides the motor and everything else on circuit worked fine with 12vdc.

So I ran a direct wire from 12v chassis battery post direct to the ER wire lead into the back of the switch. It works perfectly now.

Next Steps

I will have to take it to a Winnebago dealer to find the short from circuit panel on driver side to the rear of the switch on passenger side. Maybe they run a new wire? Or I can make my bypass a permanent solution.

[Morich]

Good to see you are back but bad to see it is still a problem!

Some thoughts for the day. When I think of voltage dropping off and there is a fuse or breaker inline, I tend to think of the circuit having a high resistance open rather than a short. Both can look the same at times and both can vary with all kinds of changes like temperature and moisture, but let me explain what I feel is the difference at times.
Keep in mind that this is really fickle stuff and there is nothing certain, just what I'm thinking at the time, until it can be proven. And that proof is being hard to find!

When I think of a short, it is often to ground like where the wire goes through a clamp or hole or next to something to rub. This contact witht eh metal of the frame tends to make more current flow as there is the normal flow to the item powered plus the extra current flowing through the defect to ground. The combo gives two paths to carry more current and that tends to overload the breaer/fuse and that would seem fairly easy on a 6 amp.

But if the reduced volatege you are seeing is due to a high resistance open it acts to drop the voltage at the far end where you are testing but not pull more current and not trip the fuse. We usually think of two wires as connected or not but if there is a point where one wire is not connected well to the other point, the "weak" joint can act like a wire which is way too long and there is a voltage drop at the far end.

The main difference in looking for the problem is that for the short, I would want to look at different spots where things might rub and in the second case, I would expect it to be more likely to be at some connection like a plug, etc.

Plugs can give all kinds of weird trouble depending on the way they are made. some things are obvious when we look at the plug, like the contact between the metal of each part, but then how the wire and metal are attached can may for things harder to see.
All kinds of heartache can come from crimp connectors as moisture can get in and corrode the wire to metal connection, just like at battery terminals only lots harder to see because it is often inside a plastic sleeve!

Maybe two things to think over before going to the shop which we just know is going to be a long drawn out/ expensive deal.

Are there plugs you can see and spot that you might get apart and do a good solid spray of contact cleaner and then wiggle each wire around to try to buff off any corrosion? If we had a goo total wiring schematic, it would let us go to that specifc ER wire and work on cleaning it but without good info, it leaves it down to tryoing to clean aLL the wires in each plg----if the idea is even practical. Not knowing where the wire and how long and difficult leaving me not knowing if that's even possible!

The second idea of running a wire around to replace the defect is one I might look at really strong as possibly quicker/easier than more hunting.
I might not go all the way back to the battery if I was able to find a source of full time 12Volts nearer. A lot of our RV circuits are fused for 15/20 amp and lots of them only have a light or two on the circuit so tying a small item like this 6 amp into the bigger is not too liklely to blow the 15 amp.
But to make it safe and sure not to create a problem, I would add a 6 amp fuse in a holder to protect anything going wrong on the new wire.

I see the step switch is on a panel next to the awning and awning light switches. would tying in there with a fuse holder from the awning to fuse to step switch, be possible/practical to get a good battery supply close by?

You may be ready to throw in the towel and just get out from under the problem, so don't feel "required" to take any of these suggestions!!

[dkoldman]

This is my workaround until further notice. The RV goes to Dealer on Monday for other warranty items.

My switch is only about 3 ft from chassis battery.

I left the original wiring intact, but inserted the new black wire inside the plug-in contact behind the switch. I could not remove the existing wire contact from plug without fear of damaging the plug.

It works perfectly now.

I am sure that one of your theories is the culprit. The OEM wire ER from breaker to the switch is about 12 feet.

If it is a short or resistance issue, I doubt I can resolve. If I go nuclear I will have to risk tearing the back side of the switch plug up to get the contact out to see if it is loose wire on the end of ER.

Note: The liquid in picture on battery is actually corrosion overspray. The newer looking black wire is my new ER feed. It has 5 amp fuse now although the 6 amp breaker and wiring is still on the circuit.

You can also see the new black wire (ER) going into the wall panel. It is not all that visible.

[Morich]

Okay, see it doesn't show big time and looks like a fuse to cover anything that got out of place, so looks as good as possible from here. I was not expecting you to get it into a shop soon due to what others have been reporting, so maybe that is a good way to go.

Looking for either a short or an open may do more harm to the existing wiring than it was worth. Tough spot to be in!!!