Going LiPoFe4 - Renogy Sale

**creativepart** · 03-31-2022, 02:14 PM

My motorhome is 5-years old this July. I've been on the hunt for new batteries, not so much mine are failing, but due to their age. I currently have 4-100aH AGM deep cycle batteries and not had any problems with them. I do think they are not as strong as they once were.

For my kind of "camping" I'm sure I could do fine by just replacing them with another 400 aH of AGMs and maybe get another 5 years from them.

But I want to improve my battery bank not just maintain it. So, I've been looking at LOTS of different Lithium Iron Phosphate battery options for quite a while. The other day, I was ready to purchase some Chins 200ah batteries at $730 each. But they didn't have low voltage charging cut off built in. So, I was trying to decide how to compensate for that.

Then today on Instagram (of all places) I get an ad for $300 off of 200ah Renogy LiPo batteries with Low Temp charging cutoff and Bluetooth monitoring. With the discount the 200aH batteries are now $999 with free shipping and 5% off for new customers So, $949.05 each. 400aH for $1899.98 delivered. Under $2,000 was my budget. To replace my 4-AGMs with identical would have been about $1,250. But I think this is a meaningful upgrade.

I trust the Renogy brand more than Chins, plus they ship from a US warehouse and have the batteries in stock.

I had already planned how to install them and what steps to take. I have even taken extensive photos of the current battery wiring and have a PDF of the wiring layout from Winnebago.

My next step will be to figure out the DC-DC charger (Victron for sure) and how it gets wired in. Should be a fun project.

PS. They gave me a code which will take 7% off of your order. It's up to you if you want to use it or not. I'm not pushing it:
http://73renogy.refr.cc/paulgreen

DavidM · 03-31-2022, 02:50 PM

I agree, go with the Renogys. $1.00 per amp hour is worth it for the low temp cutout and Renogys reputation.

David

**creativepart** · 03-31-2022, 03:08 PM

Any idea how to connect up the DC-DC charger from the Alternator line?

I haven't gotten underneath to see where it leads - I guess to the BIM solenoid? Can I wire in the charger closer to the batteries? Will the AUX Boost switch still work?

I "think" I can do this my self - but I may decide to let my shop do it for me.

My current batteries are on a tray in a compartment - mid-RV - but since they had lead acid (AGM) batteries it's fully open on the bottom and on the back side of the compartment. I figure any metal/welding shop can close this in fairly easily. And, with the low temp cut off I'll not have to worry so much about it being non-insulated.

Here's the battery layout, naturally the Positive leads are not marked as to where they go. I know one goes to the inverter and I assume another goes to the alternator. Would there be another that goes to the power center (no converter on this RV) or does the inverter take care of powering the power center?????

powercat_ras · 03-31-2022, 03:57 PM

I've been thinking about going LiFe04, too. Been thinking about how to transition and here are some thoughts ...

Problems to fix, suspect you will have similar problems unless Winnebago went to combination converter/inverter AKA Magnum on your Adventurer vs. the separate inverter and converter charger that was used on the high end Vista and Vista LX RVs:

#1
The 2015 27N uses a AC-DC converter charger that is a 3 stage charger for flooded or AGM lead-acid batteries. Can't be programmed for LiFe04. Would only charge the LiFe04 batteries to about 75 or 80 % before it dropped the output voltage below what the LiFe04 battery needs to see on its terminals to fully charge to 100%.

#2
The 2015 27N uses a Precision Circuits Battery Isolation Manager (BIM) to operate the DC solenoid that can directly connect the chassis DC to the coach DC systems. Can't be programmed for LiFe04, and it would directly connect when engine was running and LiFe04 were at a voltage below 12.5 volts.

Note 1:
There is a 150 Amp ANL fuse that will open if the long term current that can flow between the DC systems goes above 150 amps for more than a short time (few seconds?)

Note 2:
There is an emergency start Dash Switch that as built by Winnebago will connect the DC systems, the switch applies 12 volts fed from Coach Battery system to the Dash Switch Terminal on the BIM.

Goals:

#1
Keep the BIM functionality to charge the chassis battery from Coach DC when
coach ignition key is off.

#2
Keep the BIM emergency start Dash Switch functionality that can "boost" chassis
DC from coach DC, but DO NOT allow the BIM to connect the DC systems with ignition on when the dash switch is OFF.

#3
Be able to fully charge the LiFe04 batteries from either AC power or Chassis Engine Power.

#4
Limit alternator load from Coach DC system to under 70 amps.

= = = = =

Ideas:

#1
Change the AC converter-charger to a different unit that will charge LiFe04 to 100% = Satisfies Goal #3.

#2
Renogy 60 Amp max DC-DC charger wired to charge chassis to coach systems, with the ignition terminal that disables the unit with the ignition key off used, so that it does not run down the chassis battery when ignition is turned off.
= Satisfies Goal #3 and Goal #4.

Note: I have a Victron Battery Monitor and have seen over 70 amps flowing long term into my OEM batteries when below 70% charge state from the alternator at times so am very comfortable with using a 60 A unit on a F53 chassis which has the heavy duty truck alternator standard.

#3
Modify the control connections to the BIM control module. Disconnect and insulate the end of the wire that provides 12 volts when generator running to BIM module terminal GenSet. Connect a 14 ga. jumper from the BIM terminal Ignition to BIM terminal GenSet. Wired this way, the BIM will not close the DC-DC contactor with ignition on, UNLESS the Dash Switch is used. The manual says this feature was to prevent the chassis charging system and the generator fed charging system from intefering with each other.
= Satisfies Goal #2 and Goal #4.

Note: I don't know if the Dash Switch will still close the contactor with voltage on the GenSet terminal. Am hopeful. If not I would add a 12 volt SPDT relay to the design that would open the jumper between the GenSet and Ign terminals when 12V was present on the DashSwitch terminal.

ONLY with Ignition Off, the BIM will be sensing DC voltage on both chassis DC and coach DC and if the chassis battery voltage is "low" and the coach battery has a "charging" voltage, it will close the DC contactor and charge the chassis battery. It opens the contactor hourly so it can sense the chassis battery voltage so it disconnects before the chassis battery can be overcharged.

From some measurements on my Vista, I believe "low" is 12.4 volts or less and "charging" is 13.3 or more. So the change to LiFe04 on the coach side should not mess up the ignition off "charge the chassis battery from coach battery when needed" function.
= Satisfies Goal #1

= = = = = =

Would appreciate any "gotchas" I have not thought of that would make this idea not work.

**creativepart** · 03-31-2022, 04:12 PM

No Converter. My coach has the Magnum MS-2012 inverter/charger and it has customizable charging profiles for Lithium batteries... and while it came from the factory with a less than capable ME-MR Remote Display I updated that a couple of years ago to a ME-ARC50 controller which gives me all the charging profiles I need in an easy to set display.

Also a few years ago, I replaced the Zamp PWM 30-amp solar charge controller with a Victron 100/30 Smart Solar MPPT charge controller. This is also totally customizable for charging Lithium batteries.

So, it's just the alternator that needs attention and I plan on a Victron DC2DC charger so I can keep everything on the Victron smartphone app.

The whole BIM/Boost switch part is where I'm most in the dark. Just looking at the rat's next of scary wiring in that portion of my coach's wiring makes me go into a blank stare.

powercat_ras · 03-31-2022, 04:38 PM

Nice to know that Winnebago was still building Adventurers as a premium coach in 2017. That is not really the case on the current Adventurer which was just a re-branding of the Winnebago Vista LX. It no longer uses the more expensive and better integrated Magnum Inverter/Converters.

I think if you look at #3 in my post that's how you could modify the BIM so it would not connect Chassis DC to Coach DC with the ignition key ON. You can pick up an ignition key ON DC voltage to wire to the IGN_ON input of the DC-DC converter there on the IGN terminal of the BIM control module.

The BIM control module is mounted on the side of the DC-DC contactor and the whole thing is mounted behind the circuit breaker panel in the power distribution box. Everything you need to connect positive side to is on the contactor power wire studs or the BIM module terminals.

Sentry · 04-03-2022, 06:19 AM

Did not notice if mentioned it. What’s the rest of your system?
Charge controller etc…

**creativepart** · 04-03-2022, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentry

Did not notice if mentioned it. What’s the rest of your system?
Charge controller etc…

See above post no. 5.

Quote:

My coach has the Magnum MS-2012 inverter/charger and it has customizable charging profiles for Lithium batteries... and while it came from the factory with a less than capable ME-MR Remote Display I updated that a couple of years ago to a ME-ARC50 controller which gives me all the charging profiles I need in an easy to set display.

Also a few years ago, I replaced the Zamp PWM 30-amp solar charge controller with a Victron 100/30 Smart Solar MPPT charge controller. This is also totally customizable for charging Lithium batteries.

**creativepart** · 04-05-2022, 02:45 PM

The batteries came in on Monday -3-days since ordering with a weekend making up two of those days. Wow, that's fast. They shipped from California.

They look great. I connected to the Bluetooth on their App and it's pretty nice. They arrived at 37v for one battery and 45v for the other one. The phone app combined them into a bank even though they are not connected to each other.

I don't have a suitable AC2DC charger for the required voltage (14.4v) so I bought one of those, too. Once I receive that this week I'll charge them up to nearly full. I found a Victron AC2DC charger that I can program with the Victron App.

Once they are fully charged up, I'll start the process of installing them in the RV.

Stay turned - I'll post photos of the process, if you're interested.

lenore · 04-06-2022, 08:08 AM

I like it, wish these were available before I made my own battery. Would have saved me a lot of work. What are the physical dimentions on those batteries? Oh my bad just looked it up 20.55 x 9.45 x 8.62 inch

**creativepart** · 04-06-2022, 02:32 PM

I received my Victron IP67 Smart Charger today. It's typical well built and outputs 17 amps at upto 14.8v. By the way, it says you can use it as a power supply as well. So, if you have some 12v item that needs up to 17 amps of power this looks like it would work for you.

It works with the standard Victron Connect App but there are not a ton of settings. You tell it what charging profile you want - there are 3 or 4 for Lead Acid Batteries, but only one for LiPoFe4 (which for some reason they list as Lithium-ion, but the manual says it's for LiPoFe4.) You can also set it for 17 amp or 6 amp. There are options for Advanced Settings and Expert Mode but they all seem to relate to Lead Acid charging. There is also the previously mentioned Power Supply mode settings.

I've connected it to battery No 1 in my soon to be battery bank. The Renogy app says the battery is getting 16.8 amps of power and will be completely charged in 7+ hours. Battery No 2 is sleeping. If you don't use or charge a battery in 24hrs it goes to sleep. But applying as little as 1 amp of charge to it will wake it up.

In some ways this seems like a brand new world, and it other ways it's just batteries like any other.

PS. If you need a good quality battery charger for your Lead Acid Batteries this one seems super capable and super flexible. There are quite a few features for resurrecting sulfated batteries, too. It cost $137.

HappiHenri · 04-08-2022, 09:43 AM

I very much like Renogy products, and use several in my LiFePO4 400Ah system.

I have Battle Born batteries, and I also installed a Renogy 20Amp DC-DC charger to manage (limit) the engine alternator output. As you probably know when installing Lithium batteries you have to be careful not to overtax the engine alternator because it will try to produce the output which the Lithium batteries can take. I went with the Renogy charger due to it's features and relatively low cost - very happy with it.

Don't actually have to use it all that much, because typically on travel days we are in full sun all day and get lots of charging from our rooftop solar panels - but the CD-CD charger has come in handy on very cloudy/rainy days.

uthurricaner · 04-09-2022, 10:17 AM

I think the problem both of you are going to have is voltage on lifepo4 are high enough to fool the precision circuit's bm relay. I have the same relay in my 2019 33c and what I have found is the relay will energize and stay energized causing the house batteries to charge the chassis battery until the voltage in the hose batteries drops below 12.8, which is not a good thing. Those battery relays are in a terrible location but what I'm in the process of doing is to disconnect the ground from the battery relay and install a switch and just eliminate it all together. I can still use the emergency start switch by connecting the ground with the switch. If someone has a better Idea I'm all ears. I will report back after I finish testing to make sure this ground removal doesn't cause any other problems or unforeseen issues.

Sam

DavidM · 04-09-2022, 11:26 AM

Doesn't changing out the BIM 160 for the Li BIM 225 solve that problem even without a DC2DC? With a DC2DC there should be no problem as it is unidirectional, so no way for the coach to charge the chassis batteries.

Which brings me to the two solutions for a Precision Circuits BIM 160 based coach with lithiums:

1. Change the BIM 160 to a Li BIM 225 which has an algorithm that switches charging off and on every 15 minutes to limit the load on the alternator, or

2. Install a DC2DC in place of the BIM. You lose the ability of the coach to charge the chassis battery as well as aux boost starting unless you install some relays or switches.

David

**creativepart** · 04-09-2022, 11:33 AM

David... thanks for posting that. It just might change things for me.

I don't know if my RV shop has the RV Electrics experience to handle this install. I've looked around my area and don't see anyone that specializes in this. They all seem to be in AZ or UT or somewhere a long way from here.

I may call Precision Circuits this week to discuss this more.

Thanks again.

uthurricaner · 04-09-2022, 12:01 PM

The Li BIM 225 is not a viable replacement for the older BIM relay. It could be done but they are physically completely different. On my unit the bim and disconnect relays are behind the main breaker panel in an area that is very tight. There are some wire disconnects that would allow you to sort of remove the breaker panel but anything you do in there is going to be a bitch and you would have to modify the heck out of the bim and disconnect relays in order to install the newer LI BIM. I believe the best option is to eliminate it.

Sam

**creativepart** · 04-09-2022, 12:04 PM

Sam, please explain more about eliminating the BIM. It occurred to me to disconnect all charging from the alternator. But I'm both unsure about the reality of what that would mean and also the method to do so.

There really is not a lot of info circulating on this topic and especially info about adding a DC to DC charger in a motorhome. There seems to be some info online about doing it in a Sprinter van - but the wiring is so different on a Sprinter B-Van.

uthurricaner · 04-09-2022, 03:09 PM

Disconnecting the bim relay will not interfere with the chassis battery charging as it is done through the ford factory wiring. Give me a few days to test things out and I will post what I did to disconnect the relay and install a switch. I'm pretty sure you have the same crazy bim setup that I have.

I do not have a inverter charger however I installed an 80 amp charger years ago next to the inverter that I will use as a charger for the lifepo4s. You also need to be careful using the 14.4 volt charging on these batteries as some of the cheaper bms's( in the cheaper batteries) don't balance well enough to charge at that high voltage and will cut out. You definitely do not want to float at that voltage. I would not foat over 13.6 volts. I will eventually get all this stuff ironed out and post what I ended up with. There is really no reason to charge above 13.8 as it only gains you a few percent charge.

Sam

**creativepart** · 04-09-2022, 03:38 PM

I got a AC to DC charger from Victron to charge my new Renogy batteries at home. It charges at 14.2v in absorption and floats at 13.5v. I checked with Renogy and they said that's fine. That I could set absorption to 14.4v but it's not a problem at 14.2v.

Here's what my BIM looks like. It's not my photo if I took a photo of mine it would be so buried in wires you couldn't see the BIM and the Relays.

uthurricaner · 04-09-2022, 03:57 PM

Same as mine but that would be a top picture of mine as they are mounted 90 degrees to that and are also buried. I have tracked down those disconnect relays and can post a link if anyone is interested.

Sam