Assistance with Lithionics batteries

electric · 07-02-2023, 02:36 PM

I'm starting this thread to see if I can provide some assistance to owners of Lithionics batteries, which are now a standard equipment on some Winnebago products.
This is not an official Winnebago support initiative, it is purely personal desire to help people, educate people, advance acceptance of this new technology.
Please be respectful, I'm doing this in my personal spare time and I don't owe you anything. I'll only answer questions where I think I understand the issue, without making too many assumptions.
Use of screenshots from Lithionics mobile app would be very helpful in diagnosing specific issues. Especially if you post the Details screen, which is swipe to left from the main screen. This screen was designed for advanced diagnostics as it contains the most data all in one list.
Apologies if I don't respond quickly, I have a full time job and a family.

**creativepart** · 07-10-2023, 11:16 AM

Hi, I meant to post to you after you posted this.

Can you please detail your connection to Lithionics or why you offer to answer questions on the system. If we knew your expertise it would be a big help.

electric · 07-12-2023, 12:37 PM

I work for Lithionics, as an electrical engineer, so I have full knowledge of our batteries. I'm also an RV'er myself, so I can relate to fellow RV owners and their challenges with electrical systems. Now that Lithionics is a subsidiary of Winnebago Industries I have a desire to help Winnebago owners, to advance our technology.

**creativepart** · 07-12-2023, 12:42 PM

That's fantastic! Much needed and appreciated.

What about the Xantrax/Lithionics "system" approach used in the FLX model towables, the EKKO and the NPF motorhomes.

Can you only provide unofficial help for the Lithionics part of the equation or are you also familiar with the Xantrex part of the system?

We get tons of questions on both side of this and dealers are totally clueless. I sent an email to Duane Cyrus, Head of Dealer Training for Winnebago but got ZERO response.

electric · 07-12-2023, 12:49 PM

I'm very familiar with EKKO, a bit less with FLX and NPF, but learning quickly and can make some educated guesses. I'm also familiar with the Xantrex part of the system.

**creativepart** · 07-12-2023, 01:18 PM

Great news.

I'll post a more formal thread on the topic. Probably in the Travel Trailer forum. We seem to have mostly FLX questions here and those dealers selling them are the least helpful.

**creativepart** · 07-12-2023, 01:32 PM

Are you familiar with the thread started a while ago on the setup and operations issues with FLX electrical systems on this forum?

Here's a link:
https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...rs-363804.html

You might take a look at that thread, and even post another introduction in that thread to get the word out (via the automatic subscriptions of posters) that you are around.

Soji · 07-20-2023, 09:17 AM

I have a 2022 Navion with Lithionics batteries and two solar panels on the roof.
I also have two e-bikes with lithium batteries and an electric car. The Rad Bike as well as the Mercedes manufacturers recommend routinely maintaining their batteries at 80% charge unless you anticipate needing a full charge to cover a distance.
In the Navion, the solar panels provide what I would call a trickle or maintenance charge that keep the Lithionic batteries at 100% while it sits waiting for the next big adventure.
I seem to be getting mixed messages among these manufacturers. Are my Navion batteries different from these others in some way so that maintaining the full charge is less, shall we say, degrading to their life?

electric · 07-20-2023, 10:09 AM

@Soji, this is an excellent and a very common question. Attached paper goes deeper into this subject, but a short answer is that LFP (short for LiFePO4 or Iron Phosphate) lithium battery chemistry is very much different from NMC (short for variety of chemistries containing Cobalt and Nickel).
NMC cells are used in mobile devices and many EVs, while LFP is used in RV and Marine house power batteries like Lithionics.
The difference is related to how fast voltage rises at the end of charge and subsequently falls when charge is finished. In LFP cells voltage rises rapidly at the very end of charge, when the battery is essentially full, so we call it 100% SOC, but then it rapidly drops to what we call a float voltage, while still being 100% charged. This allows the battery to be safely maintained at a lower float voltage, while being 100% charged.
In NMC cells voltage rise is more linear at the end of charge and it doesn't fall when charge is finished, so if you want to reduce the voltage to prolong battery life, then you must partially discharge it, below 100% SOC, or undercharge it in the first place.
Also, the term 100% SOC is not set in stone, it is simply a level which battery maker chooses to call a 100% line, which can be set a bit below actual maximum safe voltage, hence giving a larger safety margin and a longer life expectancy. Actual max voltage for LFP 12V nominal battery can get up to 15.0V for a brief time without damage, but we set recommended limit at 14.4V, maximum at 14.6V, 100% SOC reset at 14.2V, and float at 13.6V to 13.8V. By staying below max limits you reduce the "pressure", which prolongs battery life.
This is why a 3 stage charge profile with float stage is important, to make sure battery spends most of the time at a lower float voltage when connected to shore power or solar charging for long time periods.
Hope this helps and makes sense.

Reason Why Tesla Recommends Charging LFP Batteries to 100 Percent.pdf

Soji · 07-20-2023, 01:31 PM

Electric - Thanks for the great reply!
Your answer is definitely clear and understandable.
I read your Tesla reference and learned a little more about my car too.
Thanks again for info on a subject that is hard to find answers for.
Cheers -

VineVixen · 07-25-2023, 03:25 PM

We have FLX with lithionics battery and Xantech inverter. When connected to shore power our battery drops to 60% after 7 days. Do I misunderstand that when hooked up to shore power there should not be any or very little draw on the battery?

electric · 07-25-2023, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VineVixen

Do I misunderstand that when hooked up to shore power there should not be any or very little draw on the battery?

Most likely your Xantrex charge settings aren't ideal and your battery firmware might need updating.

It sounds like your Xantrex float voltage is lower than expected, which causes battery to supplement your loads instead of staying fully charged.

Please follow attached guide to check your Xantrex settings, credit to @SactoSteve for creating this excellent guide.
Winnebago Micro Minnie FLX Electrical System Part 2.pdf

To update BMS firmware, follow this Youtube video

VineVixen · 07-26-2023, 05:26 PM

Thank you so much. I have updated the firmware. I have no idea where to view or change the parameters.

electric · 07-28-2023, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VineVixen

Thank you so much. I have updated the firmware. I have no idea where to view or change the parameters.

Do you have a Bluetooth symbol on your Xantrex control panel? If yes, then you can use the Xantrex app on your phone to check and change inverter settings.
If not, then use 3 buttons on the panel, here is the link to the guide
Page 72 - Adjusting Settings...

Also, after you connect to shore power and start charging take a look at Xantrex panel to see which stages it goes thru, Bul (bulk), Abs (absorption), Flt (float). Does battery reach 100% SOC by the time it switches from Abs to Flt?
After it gets to float and some time passes for voltage to settle down, what voltage is shown on the Xantrex panel and on Lithionics app?
Is Lithionics app showing any discharge current (amps in red color) or stays at zero?
Sorry for many questions, it's difficult to troubleshoot this stuff without seeing first hand what's going on...

Morich · 07-28-2023, 10:03 AM

Electric??
glad to see somebody with experience on this stuff! I tend to feel lost on the newer issues, so avoid getting too involved but you may have some info to help me sort things in other discussions?

When you say to look for discharge current, what does this mean ? Does it factor in the current draws left on many RV, even after we turn the battery disconnect switches off?
One of the big hickups we find is that the safety equipment is left on with most RV and that does run the batteries down if we wait long enough, like while stored over winter!

It would often be a small drain but how would this likely show up where you are looking? I've never set eyes on this equipment, so can you clue me in on how precise the output readings or if it is factored in some other way?

And you sure have it right that doing repair remotely is a trick! I always admired the Apoolo 13 ground crews for getting that one back home and alive!

mfouts · 07-28-2023, 11:49 AM

I keep my 2108 DX FLX at a storage facility with no power hook ups. This time of year it may stay a week to two weeks. I have left it with Zantrex in standby mode, battery off, and breaker off as well as variations of that and have always come back to 100% battery. I do turn off everything I can turn off.

electric · 07-28-2023, 05:43 PM

Lithionics batteries have 2 major advantages:
1. Ability to turn off the battery itself using the on/off button with blue ring LED, where LED shows the status of the battery being on or off. This button is on the battery's lid, but OEMs also wire a remote button for easy access. In case of FLX it's located on the same panel as the main breaker.
From the ON state, press and hold the button for 3 seconds until LED turns off.
To turn it back on, short press the button and confirm led turns on solid.
Since battery has it's own internal disconnect, this stops all loads, even if some loads are wired directly to battery terminals, bypassing the main breaker.
However, you can and should also use the breaker as a backup when putting your RV in storage. When you come back, turn on the battery first, then the breaker.

2. Even if you forgot to turn off the battery and it gets drained slowly by some ghost loads, it will only get drained to 10% SOC, then battery turns itself off automatically, to prevent overdischarge and leave some reserve power. When you come back and press the button to wake up the battery, you will have some time before you start charging, while still being able to run lights and neccessary equipment. However, reserve time is short, so seek charging opportunity ASAP by any available charge source.

electric · 07-28-2023, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

It would often be a small drain but how would this likely show up where you are looking? I've never set eyes on this equipment, so can you clue me in on how precise the output readings or if it is factored in some other way?

The best place to look is Lithionics mobile app, connected to your battery via Bluetooth. It shows voltage, current, temperature internal to the battery, directly from the source.
However, current measurement resolution is limited, so you will not see small loads below 1A.
To turn off all loads for storage just use the battery On/Off button, hold for 3 seconds until blue LED ring turns off.

Morich · 07-28-2023, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electric

The best place to look is Lithionics mobile app, connected to your battery via Bluetooth. It shows voltage, current, temperature internal to the battery, directly from the source.
However, current measurement resolution is limited, so you will not see small loads below 1A.
To turn off all loads for storage just use the battery On/Off button, hold for 3 seconds until blue LED ring turns off.

Okay, makes sense and that is where I was wanting to go as I do not have any of the new tech but like to understand it.

Since I have always understood that the safety items were left on due to liability concerns, I wonder where and how those have been addressed?
Kind of scary to think that we might now be exposed to the potential of coming back to an RV that has been stored with ALL power off and finding it filled with propane?

electric · 07-28-2023, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

Kind of scary to think that we might now be exposed to the potential of coming back to an RV that has been stored with ALL power off and finding it filled with propane?

It's your decision to turn off the battery or not, you can just flip the breaker and leave the battery on, so any safety devices remain powered. A 320AH Lithionics battery will stay on for much longer than any lead acid battery of similar size, so you are still better off than just draining the lead acid flat and not even be able to turn lights on when you come back. All depends on how long the storage period is.
Don't you shut off your propane valve at the tank for storage anyway?
Also, if your gas leak detector is beeping while you aren't there, what is the point?