Assistance with Lithionics batteries

[Downytide]

@electric

I'm at the end of the rope and it's very difficult for me to get hold of anyone.

I have a 2022 2108TB with FLX package, it only plugged in twice in its entire life since I bought it back in August of 2022, it was fine through the use until end of October of 2022
- It was stored indoor in heated facility over winter, it was charged to about 98% then turned off as per instruction.
- I brought out the trailer around end of April, I turned everything on and within 20mins, it was beeping showing over voltage, then a HUGE cloud of smoke came out of the inverter, it blew out: 1) inverter, 2) JBL Cube, 3) control panel
- Dealer told me Winnebago informed them I have to deal with Xantrex, so I did, Xantrex sent a replacement inverter and I had it replaced, it worked fine for a week or so, JBL was still dead, as well was the control panel, and battery wasn't charging until I reset a breaker.
- On May 26th, a week or so after initial repair was done, the system went bizerk, it was reading 14.4volts and then there was this clicking sound, and a very strong smell, I was able to talk to Brandon @ Lithionics, he asked me to turned everything off and bring the trailer to repair facility, this time it blew out the slideout controller, the old battery read above 14 volts everyday for almost 3 weeks.
- It has been sitting at repair shop since, we JUST received a new battery, and new slideout controller.

New Battery was reading nearly 98%, 13.36volts on the app, swap the slideout controller, turned everything on, and again, HUGE cloud of smoke came out of the battery section and it smells like electrical fire, and the Xantrex readout reads 21 volts!



The repair shop has been requesting wiring diagrams with no answers, can you please help us find out what's wrong with this trailer?

[electric]

@Downytide,
I'm very sorry to hear about your troubles. This is a major issue, not something I can resolve remotely.
I can tell you for sure that battery is not capable of making more than 14.8V, so any reading of higher voltage means it comes from one of charge sources.
It's possible that your solar controller is misconfigured or faulty, which results in overcharging the battery, so battery turns itself off to protect itself, which then results in high voltage from solar to fry your inverter and other 12V electronics.
If you only keep swapping inverters and batteries, but not verify that solar is not the root cause, then issues repeat when there is enough solar output to overcharge.
When these events happened in the past, was there solar charging going on?
Please check your inverter and solar controller charge settings using attached guide made by @SactoSteve attached here
Winnebago Micro Minnie FLX Electrical System Part 2.pdf

Based on your description of events happening on 2 occasions, but also periods of normal operation in between I assume that your trailer is wired correctly, otherwise it would never work. It's likely that solar controller is the culprit, which only affects the system when battery gets full and then gets overcharged. So, focus your attention on solar controller, there should never be more than 14.4V on the B1 output of the controller, unless the solar breaker is open.

[Downytide]

@electric

It actually happened when solar was not connected the second time, the first time it happened that was part of the diagnostic, we reached out to Go Power and they confirmed the part was working as normal.

When technician turned the new battery on the first time, it worked, we made sure solar was not plugged in, then within 20mins the everything began beeping again and reads 20volts which we thought was impossible, technician quickly turned everything off, made sure nothing was on, then when testing to see if it'll power on again, a huge cloud of smoke came out of the inverter and the whole trailer smells like electrical fire, is there a way I can reach you outside of the forum?

[electric]

Originally Posted by Downytide

When technician turned the new battery on the first time, it worked, we made sure solar was not plugged in, then within 20mins the everything began beeping again and reads 20volts which we thought was impossible, technician quickly turned everything off, made sure nothing was on, then when testing to see if it'll power on again, a huge cloud of smoke came out of the inverter and the whole trailer smells like electrical fire, is there a way I can reach you outside of the forum?

During those first 20 minutes when it worked, but before beeping, was inverter plugged into shore power? If so, then it was charging a battery, which was already full, which means it should have reached correctly programmed 14.4V and stop. Since it didn't stop and voltage kept rising I can assume it wasn't programmed for lithium, maybe it came with Flooded Lead acid program, which includes equalization.
Anytime you swap or add a charge source, always check for correct charge settings and observe the end of charge carefully to make sure it slows down and stops as expected when preset voltage is reached.

I'm making strong assumptions and could be wrong, like I was above when I suspected solar. A major issue like this needs to be worked on in person, not thru online forum. One thing is 100% certain, your battery can never produce voltage above 14.8V, it's physically impossible, so any overvoltage must come from charge sources and battery is a victim in this case, although it's quite capable in protecting itself by internal BMS disconnect and even tripping the DC breaker in case of internal BMS fault.

You can try to direct message me thru the forum, but I doubt I can be of much help, you are already getting good help from Lithionics and we can't help much with Xantrex or even with WGO service, as we have no direct engagement there.

[Downytide]

@Electric

- It was not plugged into shore power.
- Xantrex setting is set to Lithium

We know it was impossible to read 23v, but here we are, we are at a dead end and WGO doesn't know what's going on either.

Thank you for the feedback.

[electric]

I just saw a post from a new member, owner of FLX Minnie with Lithionics battery, who lost power on his first trip, asked for help with no technical details provided, which makes it difficult to help them. I'm posting a general guideline for initial troibleshooting here, to help people collect pertinent information when asking for help:
If you lost power - which power? 120V AC, or 12V DC or both?
If your lights work, but not microwave, then you have 12V DC power, but not 120V AC, which means your focus should be on Xantrex inverter, look at its control panel, try turning off/on, take a photo of what's showing on the panel and post here.

If everything is off, even lights, then focus on getting battery status and data. Look at the battery On/Off button inside the compartment, near the breaker. Is the blue LED ring around the button lit up solid, off, blinking fast or blinking slow? If off, press the button to turn it back on and see if LED lights up solid.
Is DC breaker in the on position, lever upward?
Solid LED means all good, battery is on.
Slow blinking means charging, also a good sign.
Fast blinking means there is a fault, which you can try to reset by holding the button for up to 15sec until LED turns off, then release the button and press it again shortly to turn back on.

Install Lithionics Battery Monitor app on your phone, connect to your battery and make a screenshot. Swipe to the left from main app screen to get a Details List screen, take a screenshot of that too.
Take photos of what's showing on Xantrex panel and GoPower solar control panel, if anything.

If battery voltage is below 13.0V, then your battery is nearly depleted and needs charging, plug into shore power for faster charge, solar is too slow at this point, but still helps.
Battery is full when it gets above 14.0V while charging, but once charging is stopped voltage will rest down to around 13.6V - 13.8V, this is normal and battery is still full or nearly full.
When looking at the Lithionics app screen, if current value is green and has a "+" sign, then battery is charging, if red and no sign, then it's discharging or idle.
Battery voltage can be virtually unchanged for very long periods, due to lithium technology holding a very steady voltage. When charging it could be at the same value for hours, until suddently it goes up within few minutes at the end of charge, this is all normal.

Post pics here and describe details of your observations.

[mfouts]

I am currently looking at trading my FLX equipped trailer in for a different brand new trailer. The dealership told me they don't take used batteries but they could transfer Lithionics battery from my Winnebago to the new trailer.
Will that work without additional modifications?

[electric]

Originally Posted by mfouts

I am currently looking at trading my FLX equipped trailer in for a different brand new trailer. The dealership told me they don't take used batteries but they could transfer Lithionics battery from my Winnebago to the new trailer.
Will that work without additional modifications?

Depends on your new trailer's charging equipment, like inverter/charger, solar controller, etc. All charging equipment must be able to support Lithium charge settings, or at least AGM, which has the same profile, or custom settings.

Also, Lithionics battery in FLX comes with 250A DC breaker and remote LED On/Off button, which are mounted near the battery. I suspect your dealer would not want to rip out those items as they probably want to sell this trailer to the next customer. In this case you'd need to make sure your new trailer has an appropriate DC breaker for the battery disconnect and you can use the LED On/Off button on the battery lid.

[mfouts]

Originally Posted by electric

Depends on your new trailer's charging equipment, like inverter/charger, solar controller, etc. All charging equipment must be able to support Lithium charge settings, or at least AGM, which has the same profile, or custom settings.

Also, Lithionics battery in FLX comes with 250A DC breaker and remote LED On/Off button, which are mounted near the battery. I suspect your dealer would not want to rip out those items as they probably want to sell this trailer to the next customer. In this case you'd need to make sure your new trailer has an appropriate DC breaker for the battery disconnect and you can use the LED On/Off button on the battery lid.

I do know the trailer will except AGM batteries, the dealership has offered them as an option.

I assume that the battery cut off switch does not count as a breaker?

If I were to add the breaker would I need to move battery location from outside to inside?

Would there be any reason that I could not sell the battery?

[electric]

The breaker supplied with FLX serves 2 functions - manual disconnect and automatic disconnect on overload, like a resettable fuse. A typical battery cutoff switch only serves one of those functions, which means you also need a classic fuse in the same circuit. Your new trailer migh have such fuse already, so moving the battery would be possible.

Battery location is your decision, depending on available space in your new trailer. However, I would not recommend installing such expensive and long lasting battery in location open to elements, direct sunlight, road debris, etc.

Of course you can sell it, but why would you want to? This battery is so much better than any AGM and will outlast AGMs by many years.

[creativepart]

I feel sorry for whomever ends up with Mfouts’ previous trailer. It’s now an FLX that’s been severely modified. A special model with 1/3rd of a special 3-part system without its main part.

That dealer that refused the trade with the battery is an idiot. Did he think the battery was installed by the owner, not knowing it was factory designed and installed? Makes less than zero sense.

I can just see the post we’ll get from the baffled future owner… “I just bought an FLX with AGM batteries???”

[bjhay]

Originally Posted by creativepart

I fell sorry for whomever ends up with Mfouts’ previous trailer. It’s now an FLX that’s been severely modified. A special model with 1/3rd of a special 3-part system without its main part.

That dealer that refused the trade with the battery is an idiot. Did he think the battery was installed by the owner, not knowing it was factory designed and installed? Makes less than zero sense.

I can just see the post we’ll get from the baffled future owner… “I just bought an FLX with AGM batteries???”

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Somebody is going to buy that trailer, thinking they’re getting a FLX, and really getting a Franken-trailer and wondering why nothing works. I’m sure the new dealer will still be charging the FLX premium for it.

Maybe I’ve been lucky - we’ve had pretty good luck with our FLX. A few minor issues, many of which can be traced to me learning how everything works together. We’ve had a couple of 4 day dry camping trips and it’s been great, the last one we rolled back on to our driveway with a 71% charge still on the battery. I actually think that a week off-grid might be possible given the right weather conditions. As some have pointed out, you’re more likely to run out of water first.

[Morich]

This a case of what I see as a very common progression in business that has little regulation.
It sounds great when first thought about but over time we get into real problems of how to keep things working!
Look at the way many things have progressed over the years and compare it to what the new battery options are doing?

I'm a former telephone guy who worked in telco before it was deregulated.
Deregulation was promoted as a way to get lots of new options sold to work with the existing network. You could design items to work with the existing.
All went well for a few years after deregulation but what have we gotten ourselves into now?
When your phone doesn't work, can you call your phone company and they find the problem and fix it? Not likely, as there are way too many hands in the mix, so you often have to spend a bundle to replace things that are often not the real problem.
You may have replaced your phone to get better, more reliable coverage at home, only to find out that the signal from your local tower has gone down due to a new building built in the signal path!

What we now have in this story is much the same. Winnebago can't fix it, solar can't fix it, battery folks, the same, as there is not a combined effort to make it all work!

When everybody is responsible, nobody is!
Everybody makes money---except the guy who bought it!

[Downytide]

@electric , repair shop has bunch drawings from WGO for wiring but nothing seems to fit the drawing, i.e. on the drawing calls a breaker that doesn't seem to exist at the breaker bar by the front of the chassis.

That brings up a question, how exactly is the battery being charged when comes to solar? does the solar go directly into the battery? or does it do so via inverter? and if it goes directly into the battery, the BMS should shut off input once the battery is fully charged right?

[electric]

You don't need a Big Brother overwatch to understand that whoever took your money is the responsible party, in this case a dealer who sold the unit. If the dealer sells on behalf of manufacturer, then it's between them to sort out how to make customer happy, or not and loose reputation and future business.

I've been on both sides of this equation, bough my own new RV with tons of issues I had to fix, mostly myself, and now I see this industry from inside, being part of WGO family. See how I said "family" and not "syndicate" or a "gang of misfits"? 95% of employees are great people, everyone wants to see happy customers, everyone is pushing to make things better. Same reason I came to this forum, out of my own desire to help customers, on my own personal time.

There are plenty of growing pains in this industry, recent RV boom/bust cycle didn't help either. And I personally hate the dealership business model, I wish that every manufacturer had direct sales, so a customer could be closer to the source, not having a middle man to deal with.

[electric]

Originally Posted by Downytide

That brings up a question, how exactly is the battery being charged when comes to solar? does the solar go directly into the battery? or does it do so via inverter? and if it goes directly into the battery, the BMS should shut off input once the battery is fully charged right?

Inverter has nothing to do with solar, these are completely separate and independent circuits and components.

Solar from panels is "high voltage", goes to the input of the solar controller, which converts it to "battery voltage". Solar panels can never go directly to the battery as voltages don't match, so it must go thru the controller.

Yes, BMS disconnects the battery internally to protect itself, but that leaves the rest of components exposed to whatever the source of "high voltage" was in the first place.

Your descriptions make me wonder if some wiring got shorted such that solar panels "high voltage" bypassed the controller and got connected to the battery circuit. When this happened the battery took itself offline, but inverter and other electronics got fried.

I suspect your battery was always OK, but was replaced out of caution and because no one understands what was wrong in the first place.

A problem with "screws thru the wire harness" is rare, but when it happens it's the worst nightmare for everyone involved. I'm really sorry this happened to your unit. It can and must be fixed by an exprienced RV electrician, in person, not over the phone or internet.

[creativepart]

I keep trying to reach someone at Winnebago to act as a conduit between users here and the factory. Not to involve the factory in every issue, but to make the factory aware of the reality on the ground that customers are experiencing.

Recently, I've emailed Duane Cyrus at Winnebago a couple of times. Duane is in charge of Dealer Training. I figured if I could reach him I could let him know about shortcomings in Dealer training of the FLX system.

I've had no response.

I found a broken link in a vital Corporate Winnebago website and was able to reach the head of the IT dept via email. He quickly responded and quickly fixed the problem. I also asked him to help me find a person that could be a liaison for us. But no luck with that either.

I'll keep trying.

[electric]

I forgot to add that a loose or broken ground wire from a solar controller can also cause solar voltage to pass thru without proper regulation, as controller needs a ground wire for reference and return path for the current.

[Marine359]

Ripping the guts out of a FLX renders it no longer a FLX. If you’re selling a FLX as a FLX that is no longer a FLX, that, I believe is fraudulent. It would be like selling a Camaro SS that you’ve put a 2 liter engine into, and saying, hey it’s still a Camaro SS. All this rigmarole just to try to keep a 300ah battery? Heck, @mfouts could buy a non-Lithionics 300ah battery for $1,000 and not have all these issue, and be able to sleep at night because he hasn’t defrauded somebody.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Marine359

All this rigmarole just to try to keep a 300ah battery? Heck, @mfouts could buy a non-Lithionics 300ah battery for $1,000 and not have all these issue, and be able to sleep at night because he hasn’t defrauded somebody.

According to his posts about this elsewhere here, he traded his FLX into a dealer for “some other brand” trailer and that dealer, for some idiotic reason, would not accept his Lithionics battery in the trade. He said the dealer told him they don’t accept “used batteries.” Now, there’s a new dealer lie for the record books.