Praise for Lithionics batteries

Elkman · 12-26-2020, 01:58 PM

I finished installing two 125AH lithium phosphate batteries from Lithionics. I chose these batteries to get as many Watts of charge as possible from two Group 31 size batteries.

It turned out that two other features would have tipped the scales toward these batteries. Normally I would be protecting the cable ends and tools from grounding out a positive terminal. The Lithionic batteries are unique in having a On/Off switch so until they are in place and fully installed there is limited current at the terminals. Once every wire was connected and cross straps bolted down I could then power up the batteries. With 15 wire connections to make for the batteries this was not trivial. Shorting out a battery with built-in BIM circuitry would also be more damaging than a tool arc welded to a terminal.

The second feature that is great is the integrated Bluetooth connectivity and the Lithionics smartphone app. No need to wire in a dongle or control device to check on the batteries. The app provides information on charge state and current in or out and calculated how many days or hours of charge is left based on the SOC and the demand on the batteries. It even provides the temperature for each battery.

I appreciate the the Lithionics are the most expensive Group 31 size lithium phosphate battery but they are also the best engineered so worth considering if upgrading the house batteries.

The Navion did not have an enclosure for the batteries but I added a piece of 1/4" thick HDPE to the support plate and then lined the interior of the compartment with 1/4" thick closed cell neoprene sheet with an adhesive backing. This worked out very well and now water and road grime and sand is not longer going to be entering the compartment and coating the batteries with a greasy film.

Elkman · 12-26-2020, 03:11 PM

When I removed the two Winnebago supplied batteries on my 2021 Navion I found that they were marine batteries and not true deep cycle batteries. Fine for a small boat where the same battery will be used to start the engine and to power the electroics but a poor choice for a motorhome.

Winterbagoal · 12-26-2020, 03:39 PM

At what percentage of discharge does their "NeverDie" current limit/cutoff intervene, if that's what it does? I read on another blog that the battery NeverDie technology kicks in at 20% SoC left. What does it do? Does it stop discharge? Does it warn you somehow? Does it prioritize recharging over discharge? Couldn't find these answers on their website, although I didn't pull the site apart looking for it.

Elkman · 12-26-2020, 04:27 PM

Per the Lithionics user guide the Neverdie BMS incorporates a Reserve Voltage Cutoff set to 3.00 VPC on voltage that the BMS will shut off the battery power allowing the Neverdie Reserve Power capacity to be stored in the battery for an emergency, such as engine cranking). In some applications the RVC feature may be disabled to allow full use of the battery's capacitiy without interruption.

Low Voltage Cutoff - set to 2.80 VPC the battery is almost fully discharged so the BMS shuts off the battery to prevent damage due to over-dischare.

Winterbagoal · 12-26-2020, 06:00 PM

2.8VPC? What % of SoC is left at that level? How many cells are there in one 125Ah battery?

Elkman · 12-26-2020, 08:01 PM

11.2 volts with the 4 cells in the battery. It goes into Reserve at 12.0 volts when it will be at 8% SOC.
Having a usable 92% of 125AH provides considerably more charge capacity than a 100AH flooded battery that should not be discharged past 20% SOC and where 50% SOC is the threshold to stay above to maximize battery life.

Winterbagoal · 12-26-2020, 08:17 PM

Thanks for the Lithionics info. Sounds like they have lots of gadgetry.
As for the rest of it, I have lithium batteries. I get the usable capacity stuff.

jipper · 12-27-2020, 07:22 AM

I also installed the 125 AH lithionics in my 2019 Navion J.
In addition to the advantages you call out, the selling point for me was the ability to use the batteries as starting batteries for either the generator or the Main engine.
Have not needed it yet, but it is nice to know it is there.
Jipper
2019

Navion J

al1florida · 12-28-2020, 08:23 AM

The price I found online for the 125AH Lithionics was a "sale" price of $1500, normally $1600.

Is that the normal price? If so mighty darned expensive given prices are down to $1000 for a 200AH with an internal BMS. No blue tooth though.

Old Navy · 12-28-2020, 02:06 PM

They are pretty expensive. Maybe the price will come down as the market changes, but they do serve a higher end market segment where they are sold only through select "specialty retailers" and installers. For those invested in Victron, the Victron Lithiums have some cool features when combined with the Victron BMS. Prismatic and cylindrical LFP cells have almost become a commodity, so you are paying for quality control, construction quality, warranty, reliability, service and features. Lithionics is made in the USA and has USA based support, even if the prismatic cells are imported. That adds some value for me, though that price is pushing it a bit.

al1florida · 12-28-2020, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Navy

They are pretty expensive. Maybe the price will come down as the market changes, but they do serve a higher end market segment where they are sold only through select "specialty retailers" and installers. For those invested in Victron, the Victron Lithiums have some cool features when combined with the Victron BMS. Prismatic and cylindrical LFP cells have almost become a commodity, so you are paying for quality control, construction quality, warranty, reliability, service and features. Lithionics is made in the USA and has USA based support, even if the prismatic cells are imported. That adds some value for me, though that price is pushing it a bit.

Do you know of any references that establish that there is actually: "so you are paying for quality control, construction quality, warranty, reliability, service and features". It does look like the features they list could be nice but the remainder would come from actual testing and taking the battery apart for examination.

Old Navy · 12-28-2020, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by al1florida

Do you know of any references that establish that there is actually: "so you are paying for quality control, construction quality, warranty, reliability, service and features". It does look like the features they list could be nice but the remainder would come from actual testing and taking the battery apart for examination.

I don't think such a reference exists, outside of the marketing of the various manufacturers. I'm not trying to assign some measurable value to these traits, but clearly they hold value, or people would not pay for them. When you buy some unknown brand built and shipped straight from china, you get what you get. You might get a great bargain, or junk. It might work as advertised, or not. You might be willing to pay extra for the features that Lithionics, Battle Born or Victron build into their batteries, or not. It's up to the consumer to determine all of the above. I've seen pictures and video of Lithionics construction, and they are really built like a tank. You can also see many of the "teardown" videos of various batteries on you tube, and again, decide for yourself.

I'm certainly not against buying some of the "bargain" batteries. I will consider them and make a choice based on my requirements when and if the time comes. But brand names, USA based build/service, quality (perceived or real), and features obviously can hold significant value for some buyers. My point was that the cells are becoming a commodity, as there are a small number of factories making LFP cells. It's everything else that determines pricing.

al1florida · 12-29-2020, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Navy

I don't think such a reference exists, outside of the marketing of the various manufacturers. I'm not trying to assign some measurable value to these traits, but clearly they hold value, or people would not pay for them. When you buy some unknown brand built and shipped straight from china, you get what you get. You might get a great bargain, or junk. It might work as advertised, or not. You might be willing to pay extra for the features that Lithionics, Battle Born or Victron build into their batteries, or not. It's up to the consumer to determine all of the above. I've seen pictures and video of Lithionics construction, and they are really built like a tank. You can also see many of the "teardown" videos of various batteries on you tube, and again, decide for yourself.

I'm certainly not against buying some of the "bargain" batteries. I will consider them and make a choice based on my requirements when and if the time comes. But brand names, USA based build/service, quality (perceived or real), and features obviously can hold significant value for some buyers. My point was that the cells are becoming a commodity, as there are a small number of factories making LFP cells. It's everything else that determines pricing.

I pretty much compare buying the Lithronics battery for $1500 or the Battle Born for $950 to buying a Chevy, Ford or Ram pickup with the feature package 2 levels up from the base product for something in the neighbor hood of $40K-$45K or should I spend $70K-$75K to buy the very top of the line truck with every feature available. The functional quality of the $45K product works just as well as the $75K product.

Will Prowse reviewed some bargain batteries and concluded that one for about $600 was very well built with quality components.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxMI...ature=youtu.be

Old Navy · 12-29-2020, 11:12 AM

True, but the bargain batteries are new, and don't carry the Chevy/Ford/Ram badge, body or interior, just the engine. And Will has reviewed some batteries that failed, were junk, or measured below advertised capacity. The SOK/Big Battery have been standouts that he has highlighted. Both of these companies assemble their batteries in the USA and have USA based service, so that's a big plus. Hopefully these new startups will put pressure on the competition. If I were in the market now, they would certainly be on my list. They could also become like Hyundai, who also started out as a basic cheap alternative, but now competes with Honda and Toyota.

Elkman · 12-30-2020, 05:22 PM

The Lithionics provide 1600 Watts with their 125AH charge capacity which is 25% more than any other battery this size. As my RV only holds two batteries in the floor compartment I paid the premium to get as much capacity as possible.

I paid an extra $1,000 but these batteries will be the last I ever buy for the RV so it is a one time cost. For us it was part of the cost of ownership of a new RV that came with a DC only fridge that draws more than 100AH each day. With a 3-way fridge it would be a completely different situation and I would have stayed with the factory installed 105AH flooded batteries.

Anyone who can afford to buy a new motorhome can afford the $3,000 for the Lithionics batteries. People on a budget should be buying much older used motorhomes or a small travel trailer than can tow with their current car or truck.

I have encountered many happy campers who were using a Burro or comparable small trailer towed by a small SUV or station wagon. They did not have a large screen TV or a dry bath or a generator but were not suffering in the slightest.