Another Cat Scale weigh-in 2019 Micro Minnie 2108DS

[tinglett]

I figure there are plenty of folks here who have never weighed their rig, but keep thinking about doing it. So here's my first weigh-in data. I've had mine for a few years now and never got around to it until now.

First, I have to say the CAT scales are super, super easy to use. There were no trucks waiting, probably because it wasn't on a freeway, and I imagine trucks don't stay on the scale for long. I certainly didn't. Getting on the 3 pads was stupid easy for me because my Land Cruiser has 360 cameras, but I don't think it would have been difficult to open the door and look. They had nice yellow lines separating the pads. I'll I had to do was type in the scale number (easy to see when you drive onto the front pad) and with in a few seconds you have your numbers (of course I had to setup the phone app at home before I went to the scale). Easy. You don't have to save or write down numbers. Just drive away. They e-mail everything to you, and I suppose it's in the history in the app, too.

After the first weigh, I drove to a semi-parking spot and unhitched the trailer (don't forget to chock it). Then I drove around for a re-weigh. The app asked if it was a re-weigh when I put in the scale number again, and I tapped yes. It gave a funny error that I think was due to the 3rd pad showing no weight (which was true). It said to call the attendant, but I just hit the button again and it worked the second time. It could be that someone inside did something. I didn't need to go inside or talk to an attendant for anything. There are youtube videos if you want to see what this looks like. My first weigh cost $13 and the re-weigh was another $3.50.

Here are my scale numbers with my WDH hooked up:

Front: 3060, Rear: 3860, Trailer: 4260 (total 11,180)

Without the trailer:

Front: 3320, Rear: 3020

My Land Cruiser specs are:

GVWR 7385, GAWR Front 3595, GAWR Rear 4300
Curb weight 5715 (from toyota.com), TWR 8100 (from user manual), GCVWR 14,400 (from user manual), max tongue weight 891 (11% of TWR from user manual).

The sticker for our TT on the kitchen sink door says GVRW 7000 (we have the earlier heavier axles), and UVW (dry weight) 3900. The freshwater tank was empty (31 gallons would be +250lbs or so). The black tank had approx 10 ga (83lbs), and the gray about 3 ga (25lbs). One propane tank was mostly empty. The TT is mostly packed for a trip, but not completely. The fridge is empty, for example. I also had no payload in the TV, which is normally the case except when I'm also hauling our honda generator.

I'm well within my ranges. I could probably move more weight to the front axle with the WDH, but I probably won't as the whole setup is quite level. Maybe on our next trip I'll quick run over the scale to see what "fully loaded" looks like.

Sorry this post is a bit of alphabet soup. If you don't know what all these terms mean, it's a good reminder to start looking them up. Someone can probably point to a good youtube video. I know I looked at a couple (referenced somewhere in these forums) that covered everything very well.

[Bcborn]

Originally Posted by tinglett

I figure there are plenty of folks here who have never weighed their rig, but keep thinking about doing it. So here's my first weigh-in data. I've had mine for a few years now and never got around to it until now.

Here are my scale numbers with my WDH hooked up:

Front: 3060, Rear: 3860, Trailer: 4260 (total 11,180)

Without the trailer:

Front: 3320, Rear: 3020

My Land Cruiser specs are:

GVWR 7385, GAWR Front 3595, GAWR Rear 4300
Curb weight 5715 (from toyota.com), TWR 8100 (from user manual), GCVWR 14,400 (from user manual), max tongue weight 891 (11% of TWR from user manual).

Thanks Todd good explanation. Yes, everyone should perform this exercise.

As you mentioned, it too was my first thought your a little light on the front (maybe high beams aiming little higher now). Did you take your front and rear ground to fender measurements before and after.

Personally, I would lower the ball one hole pull the bars up a little tighter and I bet you get even closer to "without trailer weights" and vehicle fender measurements might be darn close to no trailer heights.

I was in the exact same boat before dropping the head a hole. My front is now within 10lbs (no trailer) and difference between the front and rear corners of the trailer frame are 1/4" (down in front). With my E4 Equalizer I had to tilt the head more and raise the "L" brackets one hole if I can remember correctly to get the right preload to accomplish all this.

Great Job.

[tinglett]

Originally Posted by Bcborn

Thanks Todd good explanation. Yes, everyone should perform this exercise.

As you mentioned, it too was my first thought your a little light on the front (maybe high beams aiming little higher now). Did you take your front and rear ground to fender measurements before and after.

Personally, I would lower the ball one hole pull the bars up a little tighter and I bet you get even closer to "without trailer weights" and vehicle fender measurements might be darn close to no trailer heights.

I was in the exact same boat before dropping the head a hole. My front is now within 10lbs (no trailer) and difference between the front and rear corners of the trailer frame are 1/4" (down in front). With my E4 Equalizer I had to tilt the head more and raise the "L" brackets one hole if I can remember correctly to get the right preload to accomplish all this.

I hadn't thought about dropping the ball a notch. I have a little trip coming up in a couple weeks where we'll be a bit more normally loaded. The scale happens to be on the way out of town, so I'll give this a try. Thanks!

I still have 440 lbs left on the rear axle so I have some wiggle room. But more is always better

[Marine359]

Hi Todd,
I note your weight with trailer was with WDH engaged.
So, how do you know your tongue weight?
I weighed first TV only. Then weighed again with trailer but no WDH, so I would know the tongue weight. Then for kicks, weighed a third time with WDH engaged. In the third weigh, steer axle weight increased from the 2nd weigh, as it should.
I don’t understand why your steer axle weight went down with the WDH engaged. If WDH is properly adjusted, it should move weight from drive axle to steer axle.
But, I dunno. Maybe I got it all wrong.

[tinglett]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Hi Todd,
I note your weight with trailer was with WDH engaged.
So, how do you know your tongue weight?
I weighed first TV only. Then weighed again with trailer but no WDH, so I would know the tongue weight. Then for kicks, weighed a third time with WDH engaged. In the third weigh, steer axle weight increased from the 2nd weigh, as it should.
I don’t understand why your steer axle weight went down with the WDH engaged. If WDH is properly adjusted, it should move weight from drive axle to steer axle.
But, I dunno. Maybe I got it all wrong.

That's the right way to do it, as far as I know. I didn't do the disengaged test, so I don't yet have the full story, and I could have gone around a third time but it was starting to rain so I didn't .

What I knew before going to the scale was that my rig was level. The trailer was level (measuring from the street), and the TV was level (measuring the wheel wells) after the WDH was cranked up. The scale gave me what I really needed to know, and that was that everything was well within limits. I should be able to shift the weight a little more to even that bit out as well, and I think Lyle's suggestion I drop the ball a notch may be the ticket to doing that.

It did surprise me also that I could have no squat and yet still have 300 lbs move backwards. The Land Cruiser appears to have a very overdone suspension, so perhaps that is the answer? I'm no expert there, so purely a guess!

[tinglett]

One other thing occurs to me about the shifting weight. When I adjusted the WDH, I did so only for leveling everything. That means as soon as it got to level, I stopped tightening, and that is where it currently sits. I can imagine I could tighten it further without really changing the level much. Also, when I level it nobody is sitting in the TV. That can account for part of the 260 lb shift, I suppose. I'll measure on my next trip. Then I'll also have a full tank of gas, etc.

I was thinking I probably wouldn't run over the scale too much in the future. I suppose after I make any kind of big mod I maybe should do it (including change of TV of course), and maybe every couple of years to see if the WDH is changing behavior over time. What do you guys do in this area?

BTW, the real reason I was out and about this time was that I had just repacked my bearings and needed a test drive anyway. I thought what the heck, why not finally get that Cat scale measurement too?!

[Bcborn]

Jim, your thinking is bang on, more preload was required to increase front TV GAWR.

Todd, By lowering the ball, the front of the trailer will drop. Starting this way allows you to increase the preload on the bars without getting the trailer high in the front.

When you crank up on the bars the rear of the truck and the front of the trailer will come up together.

Weight will transfer to the front wheels of the tow vehicle (more GAWR) and more will come off the rear axle. Think of it like a teeder todder, as you lift the back of the TV the pressure on the rear axle goes down and the pressure on the front axle goes up.

Without lowering the ball doing this exercise would place the front of the trailer high compared to the rear. And yes you would still increase front axle and decrease rear axle.

As you don't have a Cat Scale in your driveway, work with your wheel well to ground measurements. The heights don't have to change much to see a big difference at the scale. Try and get as close as you can with your front wheel well height and you will be surprised of your outcome.

I think my front TV measurement is within an 1/8 - 1/4" of no trailer and my rear within an 1" if I can remember correctly.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by tinglett

I figure there are plenty of folks here who have never weighed their rig, but keep thinking about doing it. So here's my first weigh-in data. I've had mine for a few years now and never got around to it until now.

First, I have to say the CAT scales are super, super easy to use. There were no trucks waiting, probably because it wasn't on a freeway, and I imagine trucks don't stay on the scale for long. I certainly didn't. Getting on the 3 pads was stupid easy for me because my Land Cruiser has 360 cameras, but I don't think it would have been difficult to open the door and look. They had nice yellow lines separating the pads. I'll I had to do was type in the scale number (easy to see when you drive onto the front pad) and with in a few seconds you have your numbers (of course I had to setup the phone app at home before I went to the scale). Easy. You don't have to save or write down numbers. Just drive away. They e-mail everything to you, and I suppose it's in the history in the app, too.

After the first weigh, I drove to a semi-parking spot and unhitched the trailer (don't forget to chock it). Then I drove around for a re-weigh. The app asked if it was a re-weigh when I put in the scale number again, and I tapped yes. It gave a funny error that I think was due to the 3rd pad showing no weight (which was true). It said to call the attendant, but I just hit the button again and it worked the second time. It could be that someone inside did something. I didn't need to go inside or talk to an attendant for anything. There are youtube videos if you want to see what this looks like. My first weigh cost $13 and the re-weigh was another $3.50.

Here are my scale numbers with my WDH hooked up:

Front: 3060, Rear: 3860, Trailer: 4260 (total 11,180)

Without the trailer:

Front: 3320, Rear: 3020

My Land Cruiser specs are:

GVWR 7385, GAWR Front 3595, GAWR Rear 4300
Curb weight 5715 (from toyota.com), TWR 8100 (from user manual), GCVWR 14,400 (from user manual), max tongue weight 891 (11% of TWR from user manual).

The sticker for our TT on the kitchen sink door says GVRW 7000 (we have the earlier heavier axles), and UVW (dry weight) 3900. The freshwater tank was empty (31 gallons would be +250lbs or so). The black tank had approx 10 ga (83lbs), and the gray about 3 ga (25lbs). One propane tank was mostly empty. The TT is mostly packed for a trip, but not completely. The fridge is empty, for example. I also had no payload in the TV, which is normally the case except when I'm also hauling our honda generator.

I'm well within my ranges. I could probably move more weight to the front axle with the WDH, but I probably won't as the whole setup is quite level. Maybe on our next trip I'll quick run over the scale to see what "fully loaded" looks like.

Sorry this post is a bit of alphabet soup. If you don't know what all these terms mean, it's a good reminder to start looking them up. Someone can probably point to a good youtube video. I know I looked at a couple (referenced somewhere in these forums) that covered everything very well.

Glad you made the effort. Couple of suggestions.
For the RV Trailer numbers for the GVWR and "Dry weight" ore of little value if you want to confirm you not in the majority of RV owners that have overloaded the RV.tires.
The important numbers for the the tires is GAWR and the scale reading for the axle.


What is the cold inflation on the trailer tires? Axle does not allow for side to side weight variation so I suggest you assume at least a 49/51% split so 51% of 4260 is 2,173#. As a tire design engineer I recommend you run no more than 90% of the tire load capacity so that suggests that your Certification Label on the RV hopefully indicates it is capable of 2,414#.

[jadatis]

Mostly weighing is done for determining needed tirepressure.
Better would be weighing per axle-end, but this will do. If you can drive next time with one side over the scales ( if possible) its even better.
For tirepressure you dont need only TV weight.

But I can make a pressure/axleload list for both TT- and TV tires, with build in maximum reserve, and directly given per axle, so you dont need to do pre calculations. Supports a 47,3%/52.7% R/L weightdivision on the axle, and then still heavyest side 95% used of tireloadcapacity for the pressure.

Then if later you weigh fully loaded, you can yust look up the new weights in my list.
If you then are able to do axle-end weights, I can make lists for 95% used of axle-end, in wich you then search back heavyest side of axle. Again then you dont need to do precalculations then, only for the other side on the axle ( other side = Axleweigt- weighed axle-end)

For that need from tires next, so 2 sets.
1. Maximum load or loadindex
2.kind of tire, loadrange, to determine the maxloadpressure. But if you see AT XX psi on sidewal, that is what I need.
3. Speedcode and if ST.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by jadatis

Mostly weighing is done for determining needed tirepressure.
Better would be weighing per axle-end, but this will do. If you can drive next time with one side over the scales ( if possible) its even better.
For tirepressure you dont need only TV weight.

But I can make a pressure/axleload list for both TT- and TV tires, with build in maximum reserve, and directly given per axle, so you dont need to do pre calculations. Supports a 47,3%/52.7% R/L weightdivision on the axle, and then still heavyest side 95% used of tireloadcapacity for the pressure.

Then if later you weigh fully loaded, you can yust look up the new weights in my list.
If you then are able to do axle-end weights, I can make lists for 95% used of axle-end, in wich you then search back heavyest side of axle. Again then you dont need to do precalculations then, only for the other side on the axle ( other side = Axleweigt- weighed axle-end)

For that need from tires next, so 2 sets.
1. Maximum load or loadindex
2.kind of tire, loadrange, to determine the maxloadpressure. But if you see AT XX psi on sidewal, that is what I need.
3. Speedcode and if ST.

If you were familiar with driving in the states you would know that many CAT scales have erected guardrails to prevent the "off center" weighing you are suggesting.


Where did you come up with the idea of 47.3% / 52.7% load split? Seems entirely too detailed and precise to me. IMO if you make getting weights too complex many RV owners will simply give up.

[jadatis]

Answer to post #10

Some specialists write that you must weigh per axle-end, and that is always better, but axleloads can do, to my opinion.
But that is why I mentioned it if possible.
So mostly not, you write now
And even if possible, the ground besides the scales, must be practically on the same level, otherwise inacurate.

And you mentioned in post before mine the 49/ 51 division, so I gave that my list gives even more weightdifference possible.
In my list I give 90% of calculated axleloadcapacity for the pressure.
I once estimated that if more then 85% of axleloadcapacity on tire, that then comfort and gripp is still acceptable.
85/ (2x90)= 0,47222, so then other side 95% used if loadcapacity is 52,7777,%
So then 85% used yust enaugh for comfort, and the 95% still some reserve for inacurate reading, pressureloss in time etc.

Tried to give it as simple as possible in my post, but was also already to complicated.

[jadatis]

Cant edit anymore, so additional here.
Want to leave it at this for the pressure part, so this catscale topic dont go offtopic and chanches into a pressure topic.

[tinglett]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Glad you made the effort. Couple of suggestions.
For the RV Trailer numbers for the GVWR and "Dry weight" ore of little value if you want to confirm you not in the majority of RV owners that have overloaded the RV.tires.
The important numbers for the the tires is GAWR and the scale reading for the axle.

What is the cold inflation on the trailer tires? Axle does not allow for side to side weight variation so I suggest you assume at least a 49/51% split so 51% of 4260 is 2,173#. As a tire design engineer I recommend you run no more than 90% of the tire load capacity so that suggests that your Certification Label on the RV hopefully indicates it is capable of 2,414#.

Absolutely great point on cross checking the tires! I intend to run across the scale later this week while more closely loaded to how we normally travel. I cold inflate the tires always to 65 psi, though I need to go read the tires for the other specs. I have two axles, so the tires are carrying half that calculated load, provided they are carrying weight evenly between the axles (any rules of thumb here?).

I do have plans to replace the tires with Goodyear Endurance 205/75R14's. The online info says these have a max load of 2040 lbs (I assume each). With 4 tires I should have plenty of margin all the way up to my GVWR of 7000 lbs? That is, 51% of 3500 is 1785 lbs.

[tinglett]

Is the attached photo the certification sticker? There is another tire/loading sticker that is similar.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by tinglett

Absolutely great point on cross checking the tires! I intend to run across the scale later this week while more closely loaded to how we normally travel. I cold inflate the tires always to 65 psi, though I need to go read the tires for the other specs. I have two axles, so the tires are carrying half that calculated load, provided they are carrying weight evenly between the axles (any rules of thumb here?).

I do have plans to replace the tires with Goodyear Endurance 205/75R14's. The online info says these have a max load of 2040 lbs (I assume each). With 4 tires I should have plenty of margin all the way up to my GVWR of 7000 lbs? That is, 51% of 3500 is 1785 lbs.

While some large Class-A motorhomes have been found to have axle weight (end to end) to be un-balanced by as much as 1,600#) I believe that most RV trailers are closer to 49/51% BUT you can confirm the weight on each axle by making sure the each axle is only one one scale pad. This is easy to do if you are only getting the axles on a two axle trailer. Three axle trailers will need to get a couple of readings and do a little math.


Once you have individual axle weights calculate 51% of the heavier axle and that "weight" is what you use when consulting the Load/Infl tables to learn the MINIMUM inflation needed for your tires.



The inflation in the table becomes the "low pressure warning" level for your TPMS as well as being the MINIMUM inflation.



I suggest that you add 10% to that MINIMUM to learn your "COLD" inflation number to be used when inflating ALL tires on the trailer.


This 10% cushion means you don't have to mess around with inflation when the Ambient Temperature drops and your inflation pressure drops (Remember pressure changes by about 2% for each change in Ambient of 10F so unless you have a drop in Ambient of 50F you are good to go.


Your High Pressure warning level for the TPMS can be 20% above your "cold inflation number.


Finally ALL tires on the trailer should be inflated to the same number. This so the reaction of the trailer in an emergency hard stop will prevent excessive side to side motion.


Hope this helps. I have more info on my blog on RV Tire Safety dot NET

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by tinglett

Is the attached photo the certification sticker? There is another tire/loading sticker that is similar.

Yes that is the Cert Label.

[jadatis]

Originally Posted by tinglett

Is the attached photo the certification sticker? There is another tire/loading sticker that is similar.

This information shows a reasonable reserve in the GAWR's to the GVWR, the 2x3500lbs axles can carry the complete GVWR, and minimum is 10% on towbar.

And a reasonable reserve in the tires to the GAWR.
2040 lbs x2 is 4040 lbs for a 3500lbs GAWR.

Only Airstream does it better with often GAWR's together more then GVWR, but most other brands only GAWR's together GVWR minus 10%, yust enaugh to law.

I found LT tire in that sise and loadrange so AT 65 psi maxload 1765 lbs but for upto 99mph given.
Is loadindex 100, and to laws of nature, they would have the same reserves for 65mph.
Your ST are loadindex 105 for 65mph given.

But.... I also found european C-tire in old paper list of Michelin XCA with loadindex 109P/ maxload 2271 lbs AT 69psi upto 150kmph/ 93 mph.
When I converse that to 99mph and AT 65 psi, it comes to about loadindex 106 a 107 so still higher then the 105 of your ST.

And because as European guy, I trust the European system, I concluded that your ST in this sise, dont need to be lowered in maxload to get the deflection needed to laws of nature, for 99mph, what I use to get the highest pressure without your screws trembling out.

This you see done in the US system with Going from ST LI 105 to LT LI 100, 5 steps for the speed.

So I expect your inside tire temperature with no external factors, to go to about 120 degrF when driving 65mph, and not 140 degrF, as would give for other ST tires in larger sises, at other brands TT's.

[tinglett]

Here's an update. I went across the scale again as we headed out on a trip this past weekend. This time we were loaded a bit more like normal, complete with a full freshwater tank. The TV also had what I would estimate as another 100 lbs of payload (at most).

Before heading to the scale I parked on the street to verify everything was still level. It was -- TT measurements to the road front to back; TV wheel well distances the same. But what I found was that I could keep tightening up the WDH and it stayed level for many turns! Only on the 4th turn of the nut, and these are pretty coarse threads, did the TV front wheel well finally move down a bit. I went until the front wheel well was 1" below the rear. When the TV is unloaded the rear wheel well sits 2" higher, so I probably could give it more.

This extra ratcheting of my WDH didn't change the distribution much. Overall, the load was about 600 lbs more, and the TV took 200 of that spread evenly across the axles. Everything is spot-on level, though, and it drove very nicely into heavy wind at least.

Front: 3160, Rear: 3960, Trailer: 4640, TOTAL: 11760.

My front axle is at 88% of max, and the rear is at 92% of max. It would be nice to push a little more weight back onto the trailer axles. I haven't tried dropping the hitch down a notch yet. Perhaps that will do it, or maybe we just need to load a little more payload to the middle or rear of the TT to get there. All in all it's pretty good as-is, but I may try dropping down a notch for the next trip out. That probably won't be for a while, though :(.

Recall the original numbers were:

Front: 3060, Rear: 3860, Trailer: 4260 (total 11,180)

Without the trailer:

Front: 3320, Rear: 3020

My Land Cruiser specs are:

GVWR 7385, GAWR Front 3595, GAWR Rear 4300
Curb weight 5715 (from toyota.com), TWR 8100 (from user manual), GCVWR 14,400 (from user manual), max tongue weight 891 (11% of TWR from user manual).

[Bcborn]

Hello Todd, Looks like your weights are pretty good. If you are correct on your estimated 100Lbs extra payload in cargo area of TV your within your TV tongue weight.

The one question I would ask, what was the ground to Wheel well measurement at front with (unequalized) and without trailer. If your atleast halfway between (equalized) your all set.

As you mentioned, turning the nut more finally started to move the front lower, that's the key here.

At some point turning the nut more will raise the rear of TV and trailer as weight shifts to trailer. This is where your trailer height measurement come back into play, thus the possible need to lower ball to keep trailer level.

The rear wheel well measurement of the TV may never get to the unloaded measurement as it has an extra 800 plus pounds resting on rear axle.

The goal is not to get the TV rake back to where the rear is 2" higher than the front. But to get the front measurement atleast halfway back to the height with and without the trailer. See my album for the spreadsheet.

[Bcborn]

With the 100Lb assumption.

I forgot to add your tongue weight to trailer weight is at 15.3%. 3960 - 100 - 3020 = 840 Lbs. 840 + 4640 = 5480 Trailer Weight. 840 / 5480 = 15.33% Ratio (Approx).

Moving a little gear rearward and a little more torque on the WDH should pull that down a bit. Playing with the amount of fresh water may impact that too.

Happy Trails