Refrigerator and Solar Power

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

Thanks MadMaxWinnie.

The other day I pulled over to spend the night at a rest stop, and by habit I pushed my Battery Display Switch.

Naturally, there was a lot of "surface charge" and the display indicated 13.1V, which is impossible, because no 12V battery or 4x6V battery bank can have more than 12.8V-12.9V at rest.

Then I pulled some leftovers out of the refrigerator to heat in the micro wave when I got an idea. What if I run the microwave for 30 seconds? ...And then can I check my battery voltage?

Sure enough it worked! ...And the voltage never climbed.

So no you know you don't have to wait until morning if you want to check your SOC!

CHARGING

It's easier to read the 12V voltage of a battery than it is to take an hydrometer and measure the electrolyte inside each cell. So that's what most of us do.

Each battery cell is ~2.15v. So a 12V battery will have 6 cells connected in series just like you do when you load a flashlight up with batteries (in series); and then you add the voltage of the batteries together to get the total voltage.

In this case 2.15 x 6 cells = 12.9V, and anything above that is called "surface charge."

My point is that if you could measure each battery cell then you would get a graph like the one below that emphasizes MadMaxWinnie's points: Batteries will charge rapidly at first and then take a long time to charge the last 10%.

==> And old batteries, that are sulfated, will have so much internal resistance you will never be able to recharge them back to 100%.

So that 420AH bank is now only good for 280AH, and as it ages it will drop to around 250AH. This has to do with the number of charge cycles and for me other factors, like:

* Do you leave your batteries in freezing cold temperatures WITHOUT a battery maintainer?

* Are you always changing your batteries from your alternator?

* How good is your Solar Charge Controller, which is also a smart battery charger?

* Are you equalizing your batteries often enough, and not too often, and are you completing the equalization phase?

In general, most owners, especially me, do NOT treat their batteries very well. This is why I bought a 17A Victron Supplemental Charger/Battery Maintainer; and why I will be looking into a smart DC-DC converter in place of my KeyLine VSR, because when I take my RV out for 3-4 months/year I am always driving, and that means I am not reconditioning my batteries like I should be doing.

MICROWAVE TEST - USE IT TO CONVIRM IT IS TIME TO REPLACE YOUR HOUSE BATTERIES.

Last summer my 420AH died. These batteries were only 1.5 years old and over the last 2 months of using them, my SOC over-night would drop rapidly, and my inverter would shut down before I woke-up in the morning.

My batteries load tested good at the Interstate Battery Store; and when I measured the electrolyte all was normal. So, what then?

I refused to think my batteries were bad, but they were!

...Then I started troubleshooting my inverter thinking that old Dimensions is going to be recommissioned as a lead anchor and I'm finally going to get me a newer PSW inverter.

... Turns out that was just foolish talk, and after I researched the new High Frequency Inverters vs. the cost for a good Low Frequency Inverter, I decided to replace all 4 of my 6V golf cart batteries for $400 at Costco.

(Not to mention there are a lot of junky PSW inverters you should not buy for your RV, but that's a different subject.)

...So, as I said, I bought 4 new 6V batteries and all was back to normal.

These points listed above are best summed up in the charts below.

TAKEAWAYS

* Specific gravity of SOC voltage checks cannot be used to determine a battery's capacity."

* The best battery test to know if your house batteries are SULFATED can be preformed by doing the Microwave Test listed above.

* Always replenish your distilled water in the battery bank. (I use a DEF funnel for all my fluids. So then next time you are at a service station you should check the trash. I have 3. One for my oil, one for me diesel additives, and one for my distilled water jug, which I also use for my windshield washer reservoir.

* Be sure your inverter temperature probe is connected to the NEG battery post and not the POS post.

* Clean your 300A fuse to your inverter after 10 years of service. It's normally mounted next to the batteries, on the side wall.

* Make a conscience decision to properly maintain your batteries in storage; or "BEAT THE SH*T OUT OF THEM AND DEAL WITH YOUR BATTERY WARRANTY EVERY YEAR."

Note: One problem with this warranty approach is that when you encounter a short: A) You might be camping and now your inverter will not work; and B) You only short one battery. ...It's hard to say?

==> And you can't throw a new battery in with old batteries and expect good results for very long! So I try my best to take care of mine since I have 4 house batteries to deal with.

==> And I don't know about you, but dealing with 240 lbs of batteries is a real PITA.

==> Best solution, go with lighter LiFeO4 batteries... when the price comes down some more! (Maybe this year!)

==> However, when I had a gasser Class A with only 1 or 2 12V-house batteries, then yes... I would "BEAT THE SH*T OUT OF THEM" and take my chances. Plus the 12V batteries are not as durable as the 6V golf cart batteries, so they say.

==> Batteries also have impedance characteristics and if you like getting nerdy you can check out this website to find everything you really don't need to know about battery physics: https://batteryuniversity.com/index....surface_charge

Your post above was well written, nicely illustrated, and comprehensive ... good job!!

HOWEVER, the ultimate RV electrical energy system for drycamping must include this recharging method - irrespective of whether the batteries are lead acid or lithium:
https://www.my-efoy.com/en/efoy-fuel.../how-it-works/

[imnprsd]

Phil G: Thank you. I try to be of help, but honestly, much if what I share comes from other persons on this forum and IRV2.com... that is until the upper management booted me off IRV2 for calling out the hierocracy of one moderator over the subject of installing a residential toilet in an RV. ...Apparently, I was guilty of sacrilege, plain and simple!
...That and they did not like the Etrade Baby Commercial I posted, because they (the administrator) did not get the reference. I.e., "If I can do it, you can do it!"

I still think that the best commercial ever made!

Back to the topic at hand: I have never owned LiFeO4 batteries, but my understanding is that these things do NOT sulfate like FLA batteries. Is that true?

So what sort of battery maintenance do you have to do to a LiFeO4 battery bank?

I know there are thermal concerns when operating blow 32F or something like that?

Another problem is that owners will not often say why their LiFeO4 bank of batteries fail, because they are so pissed-off over the amount of money they spent, they can't seem to talk about the downside to this upgrade.

I.e., when people spend a lot of money they often don't tell you the whole story, because they don't want to look like they made a bad decision.

However, LiFeO4 prices seem to be coming way... way down. What is unclear is what sort of BMS comes inside these LiFeO4 boxes... but adding a DC-DC-Charger seems to be a solid solution. (TBD)

I'm in communication with Keyline to beta test their DC-DC-Charger so in another month I will have some more information to share about that.

[RocknRoll]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

Back to the topic at hand: I have never owned LiFeO4 batteries, but my understanding is that these things do NOT sulfate like FLA batteries. Is that true?

So what sort of battery maintenance do you have to do to a LiFeO4 battery bank?

I know there are thermal concerns when operating blow 32F or something like that?

Another problem is that owners will not often say why their LiFeO4 bank of batteries fail, because they are so pissed-off over the amount of money they spent, they can't seem to talk about the downside to this upgrade.

I.e., when people spend a lot of money they often don't tell you the whole story, because they don't want to look like they made a bad decision.

However, LiFeO4 prices seem to be coming way... way down. What is unclear is what sort of BMS comes inside these LiFeO4 boxes... but adding a DC-DC-Charger seems to be a solid solution. (TBD)

I'm flabbergasted that a senior member of this site could make such a general statement (in bold above) and without merit. From what I've gathered here, most RV owners who have upgraded to LiFePO4 have done their research (including myself) and are extremely satisfied with their purchase.

With that, here are just some of the advantages:

1. Taking into account increased charge cycles and dependent on manufacturer, LiFePO4 price per AH is ~30% the cost of lead acid and is continually dropping.

2. LiFePO4 requires ZERO maintenance. There is no water and therefore cannot "sulfate"

3. LiFePO4 will operate @32 or below but cannot be charged (however newer technology is changing that)

4. LiFePO4 re-charge rates are ~2X faster

5. LiFePO4 discharge rates are higher, even and continuous.

6. LiFePO4 weight is ~30-40% of lead acid/AGM

You probably already know this, but there is an Electrical | Charging, Solar and Electronics forum on this site. I encourage you to search, read and enlighten yourself. Good luck!
https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/f260/

[Phil G.]

Putting on my conservative ex-Electrical Engineer hat, what "scares/concerns" me regarding the current flood of standard group sizes (i.e. Grp 24, 27, etc.) of drop-in LiFePO4 batteries being used in RVs is - their complex internal construction. By "complex" I mean the quantity of electrical circuit components needed to make possible the required BMS function, plus the quantity of inter-connections between the numerous small cells needed to supply the overall amount of total amp hours.

Click here to see a cutaway of one of those batteries: https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com...sign%20PDF.pdf

I've yet to have anyone explain to me why, for example, an approximately 12 volt LiFePO4 battery in a Group Size 27 battery case can't be made up of, say, 3 or 6 large cells ... just like a 6V or 12V lead acid Group 27 batteries are. Why are a whole bunch of little batteries needed - which greatly decreases overall "reliability of the system"??

The reliability and robustness of any system always benefits by keeping complexity at a minimum.

[lenore]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

Putting on my conservative ex-Electrical Engineer hat, what "scares/concerns" me regarding the current flood of standard group sizes (i.e. Grp 24, 27, etc.) of drop-in LiFePO4 batteries being used in RVs is - their complex internal construction. By "complex" I mean the quantity of electrical circuit components needed to make possible the required BMS function, plus the quantity of inter-connections between the numerous small cells needed to supply the overall amount of total amp hours.

Click here to see a cutaway of one of those batteries: https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com...sign%20PDF.pdf

I've yet to have anyone explain to me why, for example, an approximately 12 volt LiFePO4 battery in a Group Size 27 battery case can't be made up of, say, 3 or 6 large cells ... just like a 6V or 12V lead acid Group 27 batteries are. Why are a whole bunch of little batteries needed - which greatly decreases overall "reliability of the system"??

The reliability and robustness of any system always benefits by keeping complexity at a minimum.

Actually you can construct the replacement with(4) 3.2 volt cells with a 4S Battery management system. I am going to make a 280AH battery with this type cell construction. All for under $600 including the BMI and case. Size will be smaller than my two group 31 batteries and weight will be less than half.

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by lenore

Actually you can construct the replacement with(4) 3.2 volt cells with a 4S Battery management system. I am going to make a 280AH battery with this type cell construction. All for under $600 including the BMI and case. Size will be smaller than my two group 31 batteries and weight will be less than half.

There ya go ... that's more like it!!
About what physical size do you think your finished battery will be - including everything?

This manufacturer supposedly is getting 200AH of lithium battery technology inside a Group 31 case size: https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com...on-battery.php

But ... it still looks like they're using a whole bunch of little batteries inside!!!

[lenore]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

There ya go ... that's more like it!!
About what physical size do you think your finished battery will be - including everything?

This manufacturer supposedly is getting 200AH of lithium battery technology inside a Group 31 case size: https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com...on-battery.php

But ... it still looks like they're using a whole bunch of little batteries inside!!!

I am figuring 9 inches height, 8.5 inches wide, and 13 inches long. the BMI will mount in the area where second battery was. Just havent pulled trigger on the cells yet. My solar controller is already capable, but I will need a DC to DC converter for $110, and possibly a swap out of converter for plug in charging at around $185. This 280AH would be more than double my present storage with faster charging and longer battery life.

[rprochnow]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

Putting on my conservative ex-Electrical Engineer hat, what "scares/concerns" me regarding the current flood of standard group sizes (i.e. Grp 24, 27, etc.) of drop-in LiFePO4 batteries being used in RVs is - their complex internal construction. By "complex" I mean the quantity of electrical circuit components needed to make possible the required BMS function, plus the quantity of inter-connections between the numerous small cells needed to supply the overall amount of total amp hours.

Click here to see a cutaway of one of those batteries: https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com...sign%20PDF.pdf

I've yet to have anyone explain to me why, for example, an approximately 12 volt LiFePO4 battery in a Group Size 27 battery case can't be made up of, say, 3 or 6 large cells ... just like a 6V or 12V lead acid Group 27 batteries are. Why are a whole bunch of little batteries needed - which greatly decreases overall "reliability of the system"??

The reliability and robustness of any system always benefits by keeping complexity at a minimum.

Tesla uses battery packs containing thousands of small battery cells - for the Model S & X, the cells are 18 mm in diameter and 65 mm in height. Using the smaller cells appears to have multiple advantages in temperature management, reliability and lifetime.

As the size of the lithium battery cells increases, so does the challenge of maintaining them at a safe temperature. After the 787 battery fire that grounded the 787's, Boeing shifted to using smaller cells.

So far, we've been very satisfied with the Lithionics Group 31 125ah batteries installed in our 21VD last July by Lichtsinn. The batteries have worked well in the Texas heat and in sub-freezing temperatures, utilizing the built-in BMS that comes with each of the Lithionics batteries.

While I haven't looked at the inside of our batteries, if they are composed of many small cells, even though that's likely more complex to build - that strategy appears to be what others are doing to safely build lithium battery packs.

[lenore]

William Prowse has some great books and tons of utube stuff on solar and batteries
example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ntcAZfxju4

[imnprsd]

RocknRoll: So you are flabbergasted. Sorry about that.

For the record I'm not a senior member, just a contributor like you. Those "leaves" are assigned by the website and mean I contribute a lot.

And whether or not you agree with me, you have to admit I got you thinking about your battery upgrade and because of that you shared your positive experiences.

In these regards, I think you did a good job articulating the positive attributes of upgrading to LiFeO4, but I did not see you shared any real downside. ...Proving my points. ...Are you saying there are now downsides?

Other things I would like to know about LiFeO4 upgrades:

* Has anyone lost their LiFeO4 battery bank due to ...whatever reason?

* If you lose one LiFeO4 battery in parallel with the other one or two, can you just replace the one?

* In 2020 the cost of 200AH of LiFeO4, including installation, was a ~$4,500 bill. What is today's cost for this size of battery storage?

* Everyone says buy Battle Born LiFeO4 at a 30% premium. Why is that?

RocknRoll: So how much did you pay for your LiFeO4 solution when it was going for a premium, and are you pissed off you spent 4x as much as someone would today for the same AH? ...Again, proving my points.

[rprochnow]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

RocknRoll: So you are flabbergasted. Sorry about that.

For the record I'm not a senior member, just a contributor like you. Those "leaves" are assigned by the website and mean I contribute a lot.

And whether or not you agree with me, you have to admit I got you thinking about your battery upgrade and because of that you shared your positive experiences.

In these regards, I think you did a good job articulating the positive attributes of upgrading to LiFeO4, but I did not see you shared any real downside. ...Proving my points. ...Are you saying there are now downsides?

Other things I would like to know about LiFeO4 upgrades:

* Has anyone lost their LiFeO4 battery bank due to ...whatever reason?

* If you lose one LiFeO4 battery in parallel with the other one or two, can you just replace the one?

* In 2020 the cost of 200AH of LiFeO4, including installation, was a ~$4,500 bill. What is today's cost for this size of battery storage?

* Everyone says buy Battle Born LiFeO4 at a 30% premium. Why is that?

RocknRoll: So how much did you pay for your LiFeO4 solution when it was going for a premium, and are you pissed off you spent 4x as much as someone would today for the same AH? ...Again, proving my points.

We've only had our two Lithionics batteries since July - and haven't yet had a failure. Though during the Texas winter storm, with sub-freezing temperatures and no shore power, I did run the battery charge low enough to trigger the reserve cutoff - automatically shutting off both batteries.

With the batteries off, the generator wouldn't start. Fortunately, the shutoff happens so there is a small amount of charge still left in the batteries. I pressed the power button on both batteries to reactivate them, and then started the generator to recharge the batteries.

Unlike the stock batteries, which are 6V and wired in series, the lithium batteries are 12V and wired in parallel. Theoretically, you should be able to get power with one battery offline (though I haven't tried that - yet). And if one lithium battery does die - you should be able to replace just that one, though you would want to get the same ah rating - so the batteries are balanced.

Though we're expecting the lithium batteries to last for quite a while and don't expect to replace them before we move onto the next RV. Rather than failing, if there is any degradation of the batteries over time, it would likely be some loss of total charge capacity - similar to what we've seen in our 3 Tesla EVs.

Last July, Lichtsinn charged us less than $4000 to replace our factory batteries with two Lithionics 125Ah Group 31 batteries. This included replacing the battery box with the box used by Winnebago when they factory install the same batteries (evidently the lithium battery box has some differences...).

Winnebago uses the Lithionics batteries, which have a built-in BMS and 125Ah per battery (total of 250Ah for two batteries). The Battleborn batteries also have a built-in BMS plus they provide heating support (to keep the battery warm during very cold temperatures), but they only provide 100Ah per battery - 20% less total charge than the Lithionics batteries.

Since I ran the batteries down low enough to hit the reserve cutoff - the extra charge capacity was pretty useful when everyone in Galveston was forced to boondock without power for several days...

At least for View/Navion models, the battery upgrade probably isn't too difficult as long as you use Group 31 batteries. Not sure why Winnebago is using a different battery box - so that would require some research. The lithium batteries have to be wired in parallel - not series, so that requires re-wiring the battery box. Plus there will be settings changes on anything that cares about the battery type (inverter, solar controller, AMP-L-START, ...).

Assuming it fits the space of two Group 31 batteries, the single ChargeX 200Ah would be a little easier to install - since it would be a single battery and eliminate the extra wiring for two parallel batteries. But it would introduce a single point of failure - rather than having some redundancy with two batteries.

[crah]

I'm extremely happy with my Lithionics batteries. With the new View/Navions and the DC fridge, lithium batteries are almost a must, including upping the solar to minimum of 500 watts. There are lots of lithium batteries flooding the market, but for the most part, you get what you pay for. I would say Lithionics are top tier and battleborn right behind. Not certain on all the other new brands out there. I dry camp 95% of the time and wouldn't be able to do it without the lithium batteries. The view/navion have good size waste tanks and I added a 30 gallon additional fresh water tank that helps. The low carrying capacity on these sprinters are definitely the weak link. For the original poster, I don't think you will have any issues for 1 day and stock agm batteries.

[lenore]

The technology is moving fast, the cost per battery when considering its lifespan is lower than lead acid. Typical lead acid can be cycled around 600 times when ran to 50 % or less. The Lithium is capable of 3k to 7k cycles. I would expect 10 years out of a properly set up lithium. If I make my own, and with my AC only refrigerator I find this a great solution. 400 watts of solar is perfect for most applications.

[rprochnow]

We've found that with 480W of solar, that's not enough to fully recharge our two 125Ah batteries - and when boondocking, would need to run the generator for an hour or two each day to go into the evening with a full charge.

Winnebago should really consider moving up to more solar power for the Views, so you really could fully recharge the lithium batteries...

[imnprsd]

I know all the positives and maybe this year we will see (are seeing) LiFeO4 batteries drop in price tremendously!

The positives most certainly out weigh the negatives, I get that, but if everyone keeps talking about the positives, how can you make an "informed decision."
I'm not a naysayer on this topic. I just want to know what negatives come with a lower price, for one; and second I would like to know who has had trouble with their LiFeO4 batteries and what were the circumstances.

The battery manufactures are clearing creating a new market. And being from the sales and marketing involved in new product development, I'm not interested in features and benefits. We all know these things.

So, then, what? ...There has to be downsides; and where does the rubber meet the road on this topic?

For example:

* How does my 13.8V diesel 160A alternator fully charge a LiFeO4 battery bank that requires 15.2V I think to reach 90% SOC?

==> Is the answer: You buy a DC-DC-Charger?

* Is the useful range of a 100AH LiFeO4 from 10% to 90%, making it a 80% or 80AH battery?

Specifically, I'm surprised you'll are not willing to expose the whole truth and maybe that's because you all spent $4000+ just to get 200AH x 80% = 160AH of useful battery storage... less weight... more cycles... faster charging... who cares!

Million Doller Questions

* If I drop $2000 in todays market for Battle Borne, and bet on the COME that you get what you pay for, is there a chance these things will be thrown away in 2 years, and what would cause this?

* If I own a pre-2012 RV with a Dimensions Quazi Sine Inverter, which has a 100A charger built-in, BUT DOES NOT SUPPORT LiFeO4 BATTERIES, what then?

* If my 400W MPPT Solar Controller does not support LiFeO4 then do I need to get another one?

* Sounds like Victron has all these bases covered. However, as I map this out, why can't I just keep my 4-6V-420AH-FLA batteries, my old inverter and solar controller (which I will call "My Old Power Grid." .

...And then build a separate 200AH LiFeO4 power grid, a good High Frequency 1200W inverter, and add 200A of solar, and a Victron with Bluetooth (so I don't need to install a power panel inside my coach) and dedicated to just run my residential refrigerator and one extra outlet?

THIS IS MY OPINION - BASED ON WHAT I KNOW AND READ ABOVE

If you own a Class C or smaller Class A that only came with 2 house batteries, then I'm all in for LiFeO4, but just because no one is building a separate LiFeO4 power grid doesn't mean it not a bad idea. ...And you can keep all your legacy power grid items without spending a lot of money upgrading them.

So if have a battery tray with 420AH of deep cycle FLAs; and you want twice the useful amp-hours; at half the price; you might think about building your own separate LiFeO4 power grid.

* And to be totally honest, most of us with a residential refrigerator would like to boondock longer than what 420AH x50% will allow us to do.

* And to be totally, totally honest, if you/we are boondocking in climates where you need to run your Air Conditioner, then all this high tech LiFeO4 talk is mostly about bragging rights! ....And you be "flabbergasted" once again!

[rprochnow]

We own a lot of items that are powered by lithium batteries, with the exception of our View - which uses diesel for the engine and generator.

We've had Tesla EVs since 2013 and currently have two - each with 100KWh battery packs, solar panels with 4 Tesla PowerWalls (54 KWh of combined storage) and even use lithium batteries for our lawn mower and our lawn tools.

So we've got a lot of experience in using lithium batteries for "high power" usage.

There is downside for lithium batteries.

They are more expensive up front. Though because lithium batteries could last the lifetime of the product (with some loss in charge capacity), that up front cost may be less than the lifetime cost for other batteries requiring one or more replacements.

Lithium batteries have a smaller operating range - and to protect the batteries they shouldn't get too hot or too cold - and won't charge in temperatures below freezing. However, if the batteries are locate inside conditioned space (as they are sort of in our View), as long as the cabin is kept at a comfortable temperature, the batteries should be OK.

There is a greater fire risk for lithium batteries. And if a fire does start, it is harder to put out. But batteries that are designed with many smaller cells minimize this risk - because heat management becomes more difficult as the individual lithium cells get larger.

For us, it was a requirement that any RV we purchased would have both solar and lithium batteries (like we have at home). While there are negatives, the positives outweigh those - at least for us.

Lithium batteries have a greater lifetime (recharging cycles), faster charging, greater usable charging range, increased power capacity, and they are lighter.

As for expecting the costs to drop considerably in the near term - I wouldn't count on that. The EV and power industries require a huge and increasing amount of batteries - which will create shortages on key materials and manufacturing.

And like everything else right now, the near term trend may be increasing prices for this year.

[Wyatt]

You keep saying that you want to hear from people that have had issues with their Lithium batteries, while chiding them at the same time for not weighing in on the problems they’ve experienced.
Maybe it’s too early to tell? Lithium is relatively new in RVs.
Perhaps they just haven’t had any issues to report—yet, and maybe they never will.

[imnprsd]

Right.

And BTW, doesn't a Tesla use a different type of lithium battery?

* There is always something you give up (besides money) when you get more of something else.

Do people really know what that is?

I like to think these LiFeO4 batteries will work like my cell phone battery, but do they really?

So far, I haven't heard of any fires getting started, but that's probably and inverter issue as much as it it a bad LiFeO4 issue. Certainly there are bad LiFeO4 batteries out there? No/yes?

I have read these things can leak. Is that true?

What is it about paying 30% more for a Battle Born LiFeO4 that you get? ...Or am I not supposed to ask?

And yes, chiding is a good word, but as you can see no one is giving up this information that willingly. Is it because they "don't know, what they don't know?" ...And time will tell?

I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

To those who think I'm being snarky, my apologies. Hopefully, we all will learn something more about this subject, because I'm asking people to question what they bought. And if there is a major downside, don't you want to know about it? ...Or have you forgot that Apple Cell Phones once caught on fire!

...But again, this is different lithium technology so you need not be concerned.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

Right.

I like to think these LiFeO4 batteries will work like my cell phone battery, but do they really?

Time will tell.

So far, I haven't heard of any fires getting started, but that's probably and inverter issue as much as it it a bad LiFeO4 issue. Certainly there are bad LiFeO4 batteries out there? No/yes?

This forum is chock full of people complaining about an abundance of issues, including wishing they hadn’t even bought an RV. Why is it you propose that there’s a conspiracy NOT to be honest about only Lithium issues?

I have read these things can leak. Is that true?

Leak what? Everything can leak.

What is it about paying 30% more for a Battle Born LiFeO4 that you get? ...Or am I not supposed to ask?

There you go again. Sure you can “ask”, that’s what we do on this forum. But you’re insinuating that people won’t be honest. Why is that? Because you wouldn’t be?

And yes, chiding is a good word, but as you can see no one is giving up this information that willingly. Is it because they "don't know, what they don't know?" ...And time will tell?

Perhaps...

I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

To those who think I'm being snarky, my apologies. Hopefully, we all will learn something more about this subject, because I'm asking people to question what they bought. And if there is a major downside, don't you want to know about it? ...Or have you forgot that Apple Cell Phones once caught on fire!

...But again, this is different lithium technology so you need not be concerned.

Again, and perhaps it’s just too early to tell...

[imnprsd]

Wyatt: You shouldn't put words in my mouth.

To be clear, my intensions are sincere. And I'm contemplating buying LiFe04 batteries myself, but I need more to go on than just features, benefits, and puff pieces.

I know how new technology cycles work, because I spent 30 years bringing new technology to market. And where I come from we "trust, but verify."

So without insulting you, may I say, you would do more good to speak your mind truthfully, but stick to the subject. There is no conspiracy here on my part; and this is not a challenge to see who has more white matter, because I'm not an expert on this subject.

...But don't you find it odd no one has anything bad to say "bad" about "green energy" and now Lithium Batteries. It's like we all are expected to fall in line and accept what we are being told. Is this what they mean by being "woke?"

It's like the Telsa driver who feels good about not creating any green house gases, but never wanting to open his/her eyes to the tons of carbon waste dumped into the atmosphere by power plants that created those amps in the first place... every night when they charge their batteries before going to bed.

...Nevermind what they do with a Tesla battery 10 years later... if it lasts that long?

And why don't they care? Because of greed, which affects us all. And because most lease their Tesla for 3-years, and then BLINDLY pass the guilt and recycle problems on the the next owner. (And by blind I mean they never consider what they are doing.)

So yes, this thread is exposing the mindset of many, including myself, but most of what I am reading is like "icing on the cake" by woke people who just want the benefits and close there eyes to everything else.

My eyes are wide open. How about you (plural)?

Everything I read and hear indicates the LiFeO4 is just getting ready to launch to a much broader market. The battery manufactures have not yet finished conducting their field trials, but they will soon.

Here's a simple question: Where are these batteries made?