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Old 05-06-2021, 01:25 AM   #41
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Nothing to do with the "topic" but here's a report (not so good one) on lithium batteries, in general. Beware of the cold! My first experience, years ago, was with a cordless drill I used for turning an ice auger (Ice-fishing). First holes drilled=great, lots of power - 2 hours later (temps at below 0 deg. F.) no battery power. OH! you gotta keep those batteries warm? Is it the same for the newer, bigger, RV batteries? Is that a requirement and is it addressed?
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Old 05-06-2021, 05:59 AM   #42
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TROLL alert

He self-admittedly was kicked out of the iRV2 site. Folks do not get kicked out of a public forum unless there's a major reason. Don't fall for it, including not "quoting" his posts!

It's certainly up to you, but I've added him to my Ignore list.
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:12 AM   #43
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Like many products, much of the manufacturing and some of the raw materials come from China. And that has created challenges, especially during the pandemic with many products in short supply due to manufacturing shutdowns and now shipping backlogs.

Though, the Lithionics batteries have a "made in the USA" label, so they may have most (if not all) of their materials produced in the US.

Focusing on product advantages/disadvantages for this specific application - lithium batteries provide more power, faster charging, more charging cycles, lower weight - with a few disadvantages - higher up front cost, narrower operating temperature range, some increased fire risk (this is primarily an issue if he coach is on fire - when the batteries also catch on fire, that fire is more difficult to extinguish).

There will always be secondary factors where customers could find fault - where/how products/components are sourced, management/philosophy of the company, ... - and those factors may be best discussed in another forum - not here where people seem to be looking for help on using their RVs - how these products work for their RVs - and not the other factors that don't impact product use...
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:20 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Phil-T View Post
Nothing to do with the "topic" but here's a report (not so good one) on lithium batteries, in general. Beware of the cold! My first experience, years ago, was with a cordless drill I used for turning an ice auger (Ice-fishing). First holes drilled=great, lots of power - 2 hours later (temps at below 0 deg. F.) no battery power. OH! you gotta keep those batteries warm? Is it the same for the newer, bigger, RV batteries? Is that a requirement and is it addressed?
Lithium batteries do have a narrower operating range - they won't charge at temperatures below freezing.

Our Lithionics batteries have a built-in Battery Management System (BMS) which protects the batteries from operating outside of that range. You can use the smartphone app to monitor the battery status, including temperature.

Our 21VD has the batteries mounted in the top step - so it is getting some benefit from the cooling/heating of the coach. Plus, Winnebago uses a different battery tray for lithium batteries, that may also provide more protection from the outside temperatures.

We have operated in high Texas heat, without any issues with the batteries - as long as the coach is being used or heating/cooling is able to keep the coach interior from getting to hot or cold (when stored).

When we had our coach with cold temperatures (15-20 degrees outside), since the coach was warm, the batteries still were within their operating range, including the ability to charge the batteries.

At least for View/Navion models, with the batteries located under the step, with internal BMS, temperature shouldn't be a major concern.
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Old 05-06-2021, 07:02 AM   #45
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Let’s be careful with our words and our opinions here. The topic is LiFePo batteries for RV deep cycle storage usage.

Personal comments about other posters are unnecessary BUT so is “cable news” talk (i.e. woke) that is divisive and belittling.

We all have opinions on this and every other topic but not all of them are appropriate to be discussed on this forum and in this thread. Don’t forget that we are all essentially strangers here and as you would in a roomful of strangers show some restraint in your statements.
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Old 05-06-2021, 07:38 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
RocknRoll: So you are flabbergasted

* In 2020 the cost of 200AH of LiFeO4, including installation, was a ~$4,500 bill. What is today's cost for this size of battery storage?

* Everyone says buy Battle Born LiFeO4 at a 30% premium. Why is that?

RocknRoll: So how much did you pay for your LiFeO4 solution when it was going for a premium, and are you pissed off you spent 4x as much as someone would today for the same AH? ...Again, proving my points.
Bought my Bigbattery 170AH LiFePo4 six months ago for $800. Free shipping. And I like that it has an on/off switch and Anderson terminal.
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Old 05-06-2021, 11:44 AM   #47
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LiFeO4 Battery Storage Concerns

Marine359: I too have spotted "Big Battery" prices and this is what drove me to ask/challenge other Battle Borne owners to explain why their batteries are better for 3x-4x the cost... but apparently they can't.

Or is it, "Time will tell." As Wayatt pointed out.

I also like the idea of NOT replacing my FLA-420AH bank of batteries, because for one thing the goal is to get more AH; and for another my battery tray is completely exposed to the outside elements; and as many have pointed out, you don't want to expose your LiFeO4 batteries to freezing temperatures.

...And no one has said what precautions they take when they store their RV in the winter months where temperatures drop below 32F.

...I.e., do they take their batteries out of the coach and bring them home? ...I live in Hawaii and RV in the summer, so this is not an option for me. ...But even if it were, do you really want to uninstall your LiFeo4 batteries every winter?

...This is why you have to "pull teeth" with some people, because they just don't want to know what they bought sometimes.

...Or they got sold a bill of goods.

...Or they just don't have the experience/knowledge or ability to comprehend the technology.

...And before anyone thinks I'm calling them "stupid" that is not the case. For example, my sister is a music major and for the life of me I can't figure out how to play an instrument, because I'm tone-deaf, but I don't take that personally. She has her strengths and I have mine. Nuf-said.

Back to the subject of my LiFeO4 Battery Storage Concerns:

Is this the truth about upgrading to LiFeO4 batteries?

* Do you need to go to extra lengths if you operate or store your RV in freezing conditions.

* Is it advisable to install the LiFeO4 bank in your basement where you can also install a basement heater, like they do on boats?

Note: I sometimes store my RV in Montana and/or Texas, but as we all know TX had a major cold spell last winter; and then what? POOF my $4000 LiFeO4 batteries are toast?

* ...Or will my new LiFeO4 bank be okay in storage, so long as they are not used below 32F?

* Will my charger work in below 32F temperatures or is it below 24F? (Apparently not?)

* What happens if I do leave a LiFeO4 charger connected during winter storage, and the temperature drops below freezing, and there is no way to turn off the charger?

* And after a freeze will these LiFeO4 batteries still be good as new when I pick up my RV in April?

As for "being woke" it's happening all around us. Some by choice and others don't even realize it happening to them, because it's just another form of bigotry (intolerance) if you ask me.

...And no I'm not calling anyone names. But is is interesting to see how woke goes hand and hand with what they are calling "cancel culture." ...And IMO everyone needs to think more critically about their RV upgrades, especially this LiFeO4 upgrade, before they make conscience buy decisions.

This goes for buying LiFeO4 batteries, FASS Lift pumps for your ISC/ISL, or my newest project... which I'm very happy with, where I just installed (and hid) a 8,000 BTU Portable AC in my front lounge area.

* I mention this because I plan to do more BLM dry camping because I hate RV Parks, and I will be camping in hot weather. So with a 8A Portable AC, and a PSW inverter, connected to my separate LiFeO4 power grid, and a few extra solar panels, I think I can use my new portable AC on LiFeO4 power for days, and only turn on my generator when I need to run my basement AC. TBD.

For more information go to: https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ad-360836.html

So with the question, "What if?" ...The next question is, "How much?" ...And the next question is, "Does this upgrade make sense?"

...Or you can just keep pulling into Lazy Day's and pay them to tell you what you need and don't need.
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:09 PM   #48
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imnprsd .... great observations and comments above!

As you are probably aware #1 -> where is (most of) the lithium being mined - and how much should we "trust" the govenment where the majority of those mines are (currently) located?

As you are probably aware #2 -> once the "whole world" is driving electric vehicles - how on Earth is all the electricity going to be created to do all that charging?

I once read that it would take about 4 Earths to supply the resources necessary for everyone to live like we do here in the United States.
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:30 PM   #49
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Thanks Phil G. Sometimes you have to crack a few "huevos" to make an omelet!

And I like your comment: I once read that it would take about 4 Earths to supply the resources necessary for everyone to live like we do here in the United States.

What did Barnum say: "There's a sucker born every minute."

But honestly, these LiFeO4 sounds like the new "copper top battery" and I'm wondering what "bunny-like-creature" is going to be promoting this newer technology; and pander to the everyone's innate need to keep up with the Jones' in our very different-thinking USA culture, just like my daughter did when she bought her first Tesla at age 28.

...but wow, those Tesla's can accelerate! ..I felt the "G's" just like I was on my Harley!

So yes, LiFeO4 is hear to stay. And time will tell what statistics (good and bad) come from this new technology -- that is if the media will report it?

QUESTION: Do you think the price of Diesel will go down or up in 8-10 years when they stop selling as much gasoline, because so many more electric cars will be on the road?

And how do you drive from LA-Portland in an electric car?

I say, get your RVing in now while you can, because the government is going to tax, tax, tax diesel fuels to off set their loss in tax revenue brought about from not selling gasoline to cars.
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:51 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
...And no one has said what precautions they take when they store their RV in the winter months where temperatures drop below 32F.

...I.e., do they take their batteries out of the coach and bring them home? ...I live in Hawaii and RV in the summer, so this is not an option for me. ...But even if it were, do you really want to uninstall your LiFeo4 batteries every winter

* ...Or will my new LiFeO4 bank be okay in storage, so long as they are not used below 32F.
Let’s stay apolitical on this thread please.
I’m not a genius, but over my many years on this earth, I have found it helpful to research and do some reading on complex things before making a decision. Like Most things, there is science on LiFePo4 batteries. They do not have to be removed from your R.V. in winter because they will not freeze. Unlike FLA, gel, and AGM, LiFePo4 has no liquid electrolyte which can freeze. When I owned a motor home, I used to put my FLA coach batteries in the basement during winter. When I got my Micro Mini one of the reasons I switched to LiFePo4 is because I could leave the battery in the RV during winter. This past winter, after I winterized my MM, my battery stayed in the pass thru all winter. It fired up in the spring at nearly the same voltage where I had left it. You just can’t charge LiFePo4 below freezing. Has to do with the internal chemistry and movement of electrons in freezing temps. I won’t explain. You can read on your own. But I can virtually guarantee you, if you leave your wet cell batteries in your coach over winter without a battery minder, you’re gonna spend a lot of money to replace them every year.
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Old 05-06-2021, 01:42 PM   #51
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Our Lithionics batteries have a built-in BMS which manages the battery operations, but the batteries do not have built-in heaters (which are present in some batteries).

According to the specifications:

Charging temperature range: 32F to 113F
Discharging temperature range: -4 to 131F

Storage Temperature & Humidity Range:
For < 1 month: -4F to 95F; 45-75% RH
For < 3 months: 14 to 86F; 45-75% RH
Recommended storage: 59 to 95F; 45-75% RH

Long-term storage (> 3 months), voltage should be 13.2V (50% charge), stored at recommended storage temp/humidity, and one charge/discharge cycle every 6 months.

Self-discharge rate: <= 3% per month; <= 15% per year

So, based on this information, as long as the battery temperature is between -4F and 131F, the battery will provide power; and will charge when temperatures are between 32F and 113F.

At least when the coach is being used, I'm pretty confident we'll be within the operating and charging temperatures for the batteries, since we won't allow the inside of the coach to get outside of those ranges.

Storage temperatures could be a concern, primarily high temperatures if the coach is parked outside in the sun for an extended period.

Fortunately, we were able to find enclosed/covered storage within 15 minutes of our house, so during the Texas summers, our View will not be exposed to direct sun - plus we have 15A power to keep the coach and chassis batteries charged.
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Old 05-06-2021, 05:05 PM   #52
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Wow, lots of passion on batteries. Just like anything in life, we all need to do our own research and make a decision that works best for them.

Lithium batteries are not magic nor "new" technology. It's been around for a long time but not very popular with mass marker RVs. I've met and seen RVrs in the very beginning stages of lithium use. It's just catching up to the mass market in the recent years.

We have forum members that are new to Rving and other members with many years of experience. We can all learn from each other.

I started with flooded lead acid batteries back in the days, and the thing to do back then was use 6 volt golf cart batteries from Costco, Sam's Club, interstate, Trojan, etc so I did it. I thought it was great. Then I was told to go with AGM batteries if I didn't want the maintenance so I did and loved it. I learned many things about how batteries function during those years. Then lithium entered the picture and specifically the lithium iron phosphate chemistry that is used for RVs (not the same chemistry as the lithiums catching on fire in the news). I did my reach just like everything else I purchase. I bought the View because I wanted the Lithionics lithium batteries specifically. They are made in the USA, with USA made lithium cells. Battleborn was my 2nd option due to being made in the USA (Reno) with Chinese made lithium cells, but still a USA company. They both had great warranties and I was satisfied paying more for these than a foreign made battery with an unknown company. The Lithionics lithium batteries have met all my expectations so I don't have any down sides to share. My 250 amp lithium set up far exceeds the 470 amp hours of AGMs I had on my diesel pusher.
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:03 PM   #53
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Looks like Lithionics has increased the capacity of their Group 31 batteries from 125Ah to 130Ah... They still don't provide a built-in heater.

Though with the battery box in the steps, benefitting from the coach heating/cooling, not clear that's really needed for View/Navion.
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Old 05-07-2021, 12:12 AM   #54
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The technology is moving fast, the cost per battery when considering its lifespan is lower than lead acid. Typical lead acid can be cycled around 600 times when ran to 50 % or less. The Lithium is capable of 3k to 7k cycles. I would expect 10 years out of a properly set up lithium. If I make my own, and with my AC only refrigerator I find this a great solution. 400 watts of solar is perfect for most applications.
Hmmm ... these AGM batteries in our Class C appear to be good for around 1300 cycles when ran down to around 50% (see the chart near the end of the specifications):
https://resources.fullriverbattery.c...s/DC115-12.pdf
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Old 05-07-2021, 07:41 AM   #55
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Hmmm ... these AGM batteries in our Class C appear to be good for around 1300 cycles when ran down to around 50% (see the chart near the end of the specifications):
https://resources.fullriverbattery.c...s/DC115-12.pdf
There has been a analysis of cost, the the lithium wins hands down over the lifetime because of no replacement. I see AH, maintenance, and weight as a win win in my decision to go this route. The Sprinter chassis are great, but reducing lbs is a benefit to safety, the two group 31 are heavy, and require some maintenance, and definetly do not perform as well with the AC only refrigerator. It will be a journey, building and making my own batteries, but my son in law is interested for his future battery backup of his well pump in cases of loss power in the country, especially during fire season. Plus it gives the old man something to exercise his brain cells with, the eternal tinkerer.
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Old 05-09-2021, 08:19 PM   #56
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I have spent a total of 4 days in tempertures below freezing night and day and then I drove to a lower elevation and warmer temperatures. Might be different if I ice fished around the Great Lakes in the winter. Flooded lead acid have better performance in cold weather than AGM or lithium but people do not hesitate to put the AGM in their cars, trucks, and boats.

In the limited space in our RV the lithium phosphate double the available Watt hours and charging time is a third that of the lead acid whether the charging is with the rooftop solar panels or the generator. Nice to go from 50% SOC to over 90 in 45 minutes with the lithium as compared to 3 hours with the factory lead acid batteries.

When it is very hot we have the option of going to where we can plug into shore power to run the air conditioner and we have the same option if it is freezing whether, including parking outside a hotel and booking a room for a couple nights.

For power backup we use a standby generator at our house and it runs off natural gas so there is an infinite supply as we live in California where the gas continues to flow even in the winter. If we lived in Texas I would need to have the generator run off LPG and get a large tank installed.
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