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Old 06-02-2020, 11:53 AM   #1
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Upgrading the 1000 watt inverter

Since upgrading to Lithium batteries I have been thinking about also upgrading the 1000 watt inverter in our Fuse to 2000 watts. That would allow us to use our microwave and my wife's electric kettle without running the generator (provided I did not use them at the same time) so it seemed worth looking into. As usual once I started looking I realized that this might be much more complex than just swapping one inverter for another.

I looked on Amazon to get some feel for what a 2000 watt inverter might cost and most of them were pretty inexpensive ranging around $200-$300. But I then checked the Victron models to try to get a price for what I assumed would be a very good inverter and ran into not really knowing what type of inverter I needed. There are inverters and there are inverter/chargers and although the difference would seem to be clear (one charges and the other doesn't?) I have no idea why I might even want an inverter/charger. As far as I know the inverter in our Fuse is just an inverter and feeds two specific 110 outlets - one for the rear TV and one for the outlet behind the front TV.

My basic assumption has been that upgrading an inverter would involve:

1) removing the current inverter,
2) inserting a new inverter in its place, and
3) upgrading the wiring from the batteries to the inverter

and to get an idea about the cost of that I called a dealer I am sure could be trusted - Lichtsinn - and asked about the cost of upgrading. They gave me 2 estimates based on 2 different inverter/chargers, a Victron and an Xantrex, and were very expensive. When I checked the inverters they recommended I found that they were in the $1000 range, the Victron model being an inverter/charger and the Xantrex being a 2000 watt inverter with Transfer.

With all of that as background here is what I wanted to ask:

1) Are the current OEM inverters in recent Winnebago (or other) RVs vanilla inverters? Or are they something more complex like an inverter/charger?

2) What is the purpose of an inverter/charger? That is, why would one be needed if all you want to do is run a TV or the microwave or a small electric kettle?

3) Are the current OEM inverters in recent Winnebago (or other) RVs simply wired from the batteries? The one in our Fuse seems to simply provide 2 outlets, one of which has a 3 prong outlet inserted into it running to some box, the purpose of which I do not know. I thought it might be the way the power to the rear TV was connected but turning the inverter on and removing the plug did not turn off the power LED light on the rear TV so whatever that plug is, it is not for the TV.

4) Why would I even want something like an inverter with Transfer? Would that not be something that was connected to shore power or the generator to switch back and forth? Or is it for something else?

I thought an inverter upgrade might be worth the cost and trouble if it was not too expensive and not too much labor to install, but perhaps there is just much more involved than I ever assumed and perhaps it is not really worth doing for only some occasional microwave and/or electric kettle use.

Thanks for any help.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:12 PM   #2
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If you switch to an Inverter/Charger you would remove your Converter. This adds expense to the installation but gets you a better charger and one better suited to your LiPo batteries.

My WBGO came from the factory with a Magnum 2000w inverter/charger. It's a good unit that costs about $1300 as a new part (Model: MS-2012). It has an internal transfer switch.

Currently, your converter/charger supplies all 12v sources when you're plugged in or running the genny. When you are not plugged in your batteries supply all the 12v power. With a inverter/charger your batteries ALWAYS run all 12v loads. When plugged in the charger keeps the batteries charged.

The charger in my Magnum is vastly better than the typical converter/charger's charger. It's a much smarter device and easily configurable with both pre-set configurations and total control for custom charge schemes.

One other option that's important in a new inverter is to get one with a transfer switch built in. Just as it sounds, you could have the inverter on and plug in to shore power or start your genny and the AC power is instantly transferred to the new source. And visa versa, when you unplug the invert simply takes over instantly. Outside AC current just passes through the Inverter when it's available.

Hope that answers your questions.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:29 PM   #3
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If you switch to an Inverter/Charger you would remove your Converter. This adds expense to the installation but gets you a better charger and one better suited to your LiPo batteries.

My WBGO came from the factory with a Magnum 2000w inverter/charger. It's a good unit that costs about $1300 as a new part (Model: MS-2012). It has an internal transfer switch.

Currently, your converter/charger supplies all 12v sources when you're plugged in or running the genny. When you are not plugged in your batteries supply all the 12v power. With a inverter/charger your batteries ALWAYS run all 12v loads. When plugged in the charger keeps the batteries charged.

The charger in my Magnum is vastly better than the typical converter/charger's charger. It's a much smarter device and easily configurable with both pre-set configurations and total control for custom charge schemes.

One other option that's important in a new inverter is to get one with a transfer switch built in. Just as it sounds, you could have the inverter on and plug in to shore power or start your genny and the AC power is instantly transferred to the new source. And visa versa, when you unplug the invert simply takes over instantly. Outside AC current just passes through the Inverter when it's available.

Hope that answers your questions.
Every time someone answers one of my questions it makes me suspect that I did not really understand the system I was asking about, so I am confused by the response. Here as well, so here are some questions based on your post.

1) As far as I understand my Fuse has (a) a converter/charger that sits under the refrigerator and handles both shore power and the generator. This device is made by Progressive Dynamics and is a PD9245 45 amp converter/charger. I assumed this device only took AC input from the generator or from shore power and that it was not working at all when neither of those was in use.

2) There is a 1000 watt inverter that sits under the drawers next to the refrigerator and only provides power when it is switched on. There is an ON/OFF switch on the wall near the One Place and presumably is only needed when there is no generator or shore power. I have never tried to turn this on when hooked to shore power or when running the generator.

These two devices don't seem to have any electrical connection between them so I don't know how one would even know what was going on with the other one.

So which of these is the Converter you are referring to? Or is it to some other device that I didn't mention (and probably don't know exists)?

You refer to a Converter, an Inverter/Charger and a converter/charger. Are those 3 different devices? Or are they the same device working differently under different conditions? Or something else?

We really like our Fuse, and we enjoy being out camping in the middle of nowhere but there are times when I begin to think that there ought to be an RV-101 course somewhere that I could take that would explain all of the stuff that I take for granted but apparently know very little about. We have had walk-arounds with every RV we bought but until I started to get into stuff like this I never really knew the right questions to ask.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:44 PM   #4
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Currently there are no real connections between your converter and your inverter.

If you switch to an inverter/charger you totally remove the converter. You don't need it any longer.

Currently, on shore power your converter takes 110v shore power and CONVERTS it to 12v to run your 12v appliances. Unplug the shore power and your batteries run the 12v appliances.

Remove the converter and your batteries simply run your 12v appliances. Just like they do today when not plugged into shore power.

You don't need a converter if you have an inverter/charger. You need batteries to provide 12v and a charger to keep the batteries charged when you are on shore power.

Don't make it more difficult than it is - it's just a different system that gives you the same basic results as your current system - but with more inverted AC wattage and a better multi-stage configurable charger for your LiPo batteries.

Converters were added to smaller RVs to bypass your batteries when you are plugged into shore power. And they have built in chargers to also top up your batteries as need be.

You can keep the converter and get a bigger Inverter without a charger and keep everything the same. That simplifies things, but you keep your current converter and it's less than ideal battery charger.

Something like this would allow you to simply replace your 1000w inverter with a 2000w inverter. No charger included your current Converter would stay.

https://www.invertersupply.com/index...BoCxj8QAvD_BwE
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:51 PM   #5
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Yours sounds like what we have in the INTENT models. A basic 1000w with its own on/off switch on the wall. All it does is convert 12v to 110v. Itís not a charger. Itís a battery depleter! It powers the residential fridge and tvís when dry camping only.


FYI...If you have it turned on and then start the generator or plug in shore power, it will trip. You wonít know it, because youíre plugged in. But when you unplug or turn off the generator, youíll find the converter doesnít work. Youíll have to push the reset button on the unit itself. It WILL happen, so be familiar with how to get to it. Mine is under the false floor under the kitchen sink. Not easily accessible.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:55 PM   #6
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The Victron or even the Xantrex inverters are quite a bit more robust than the no name Chinese inverters. I had one of the later die on me after a few months of use. Xantrex is quite a bit cheaper than the Victron and is an acceptable American brand inverter

You may want to consider pure sine wave vs modified sine wave inverters. MSW inverters are quite a bit cheaper but won't work for some appliances, but rarely won't work with microwaves.

The simplest and cheapest to install is an inverter only that replace the one you have. You probably will need to go with larger diameter DC cable to the batteries. A 2000 watt inverter can draw up to 200 amps DC which requires at least #1 wire for a run of 10' or less which will keep the voltage drop down to about 1/2 volt.

You would then wire up the two outlets that the inverter powers to the AC output of the inverter. If you want an outlet closer to your Microwave, you would have to add another outlet there and run the wire back to the inverter's output. With probably three outlet destinations though you probably need a three breaker panel mounted near the inverter with 15A breakers to control the loads plus have an easy way to distribute the wiring.

If you DIY you could probably install a Xantrex Prowatt 2000 for $360 (a MSW type) or a Xantrex Prosine for about $1,000 for the inverter and another $100 or so for the breaker panel and wiring.

An inverter/charger is a whole different kettle of fish which requires extensive AC rewiring to work with the inverter's internal transfer switch. If you can get by with manually switching the microwave plug from the existing one to the inverter one, then the above is by far the cheapest thing to do.

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Old 06-02-2020, 02:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
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A 2000 watt inverter can draw up to 200 amps DC which requires at least #1 wire for a run of 10' or less which will keep the voltage drop down to about 1/2 volt.
I think 2000w at 12vdc is about 165 amps. According to my wire size guide 10' - 13' run would require 4-ga wire but the bigger the better.

If you have a xantrex inverter now, with xantrex remote then it might be convenient to stick with that brand and if possible reuse the remote you already have.

https://www.donrowe.com/Xantrex-806-...p/806-1220.htm
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Old 06-02-2020, 02:32 PM   #8
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Some comments -

Most 12 volt Lithium batteries sold for RVs are only rated to deliver 100 amps to a load. An inverter draws 100 amps when delivering about 1,150 watts. To reliabily power more than 1,000 watts such as for a Keurig or a Microwave you may need to have at least 2 Lithium batteries in parallel.

There's no reason to change to a combination converter/inverter unless you just have money to spend burning a hole in your pocket. Will cost much more.

I had issues with a 2,000 watt inverter running my microwave, it could not handle the surge startup current the microwave draws for a split second when it starts the microwave generator. I ended up with a Vertamax 3,000 watt pure sine wave inverter with included remote on/off switch. I got it from WindyNation.com. Not the cheapest but it's quality and you get USA tech support from WindyNation if you have any issues.

You will want to locate the large inverter as close to your house batteries as you possibly can. Use two 0 gauge runs from inverter pos and neg directly to batteries.

You can switch the inverter into more circuits than the original 1,000 inverter fed and you'll have to feed at least 1 additonal circuit to power the microwave. You can buy small transfer switches rated for 15 or 20 amps to do this.
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Old 06-02-2020, 03:37 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by powercat_ras View Post
Some comments -

Most 12 volt Lithium batteries sold for RVs are only rated to deliver 100 amps to a load. An inverter draws 100 amps when delivering about 1,150 watts. To reliabily power more than 1,000 watts such as for a Keurig or a Microwave you may need to have at least 2 Lithium batteries in parallel.

There's no reason to change to a combination converter/inverter unless you just have money to spend burning a hole in your pocket. Will cost much more.

I had issues with a 2,000 watt inverter running my microwave, it could not handle the surge startup current the microwave draws for a split second when it starts the microwave generator. I ended up with a Vertamax 3,000 watt pure sine wave inverter with included remote on/off switch. I got it from WindyNation.com. Not the cheapest but it's quality and you get USA tech support from WindyNation if you have any issues.

You will want to locate the large inverter as close to your house batteries as you possibly can. Use two 0 gauge runs from inverter pos and neg directly to batteries.

You can switch the inverter into more circuits than the original 1,000 inverter fed and you'll have to feed at least 1 additonal circuit to power the microwave. You can buy small transfer switches rated for 15 or 20 amps to do this.
I have 2 LiFePO4 100AH batteries connected in parallel. Without that I would not even be thinking about doing this.

Perhaps it would be worth checking to see what the highest starting amperage is with the microwave. It is a small RV microwave and I am not even sure what its power rating is. It is annoying because it is not even a convection microwave but perhaps that is not such a bad thing as it might be a lower power unit.

The present inverter location is probably about 3 feet in a straight line from the batteries but perhaps 5 feet as the wire has to run.
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Old 06-02-2020, 03:43 PM   #10
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If you have a xantrex inverter now, with xantrex remote then it might be convenient to stick with that brand and if possible reuse the remote you already have.

https://www.donrowe.com/Xantrex-806-...p/806-1220.htm
I am pretty sure that the current inverter is a Magnum. The brand is not visible given how it is installed but the model number is CSW1012 and that brings up the Magnum model. And your idea to buy the same brand in order to be able to use the remote sounds spot on. I am pretty sure Magnum makes a 2000 watt psw version of this inverter.
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Old 06-02-2020, 03:45 PM   #11
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I am pretty sure Magnum makes a 2000 watt psw version of this inverter.
I linked to one above - same model number just 2000 instead of 1000:

https://www.invertersupply.com/index...oducts_id=6101
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Old 06-02-2020, 04:00 PM   #12
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Yours sounds like what we have in the INTENT models. A basic 1000w with its own on/off switch on the wall. All it does is convert 12v to 110v. Itís not a charger. Itís a battery depleter! It powers the residential fridge and tvís when dry camping only.


FYI...If you have it turned on and then start the generator or plug in shore power, it will trip. You wonít know it, because youíre plugged in. But when you unplug or turn off the generator, youíll find the converter doesnít work. Youíll have to push the reset button on the unit itself. It WILL happen, so be familiar with how to get to it. Mine is under the false floor under the kitchen sink. Not easily accessible.
I took a good look at the inverter and the device plugged into it. The inverter is the Magnum CSW1012 inverter and the device plugged into it has the model number CSW1012-TS15 which, apparently, is a Transfer Switch based on what I find with a Google search.

I mention this because I assume a transfer switch should allow the power transfer from DC to shore power or generator without causing the inverter to trip. I have not tested this and, in fact, can't say that I have ever had anything plugged into and using AC when I started the generator or plugged in shore power.

Aside from the rear TV I don't think we have ever used anything powered by the inverter except for occasionally plugging a small battery charger into one of the inverter outlets. So far we have not had an issue with the inverter tripping and I assume that is a good thing because until now I would not have really known where to look to fix such an issue.

I learn something new about my RV pretty much every day on this forum and am grateful for all of the good information people post.
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:43 PM   #13
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I have 2 LiFePO4 100AH batteries connected in parallel. Without that I would not even be thinking about doing this.

Perhaps it would be worth checking to see what the highest starting amperage is with the microwave. It is a small RV microwave and I am not even sure what its power rating is. It is annoying because it is not even a convection microwave but perhaps that is not such a bad thing as it might be a lower power unit.

The present inverter location is probably about 3 feet in a straight line from the batteries but perhaps 5 feet as the wire has to run.
I thought about doing this 2 years ago. Swapping in a CSW2012 for the OEM CSW1012. I sent the manufacturer an email asking for guidance. I suggested the wire run was around 4 feet, give or take. The response I got from Daryl at Sensata (Magnum), recommended 1GA wire and a 300A fuse. FYI.
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:43 PM   #14
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I thought about doing this 2 years ago. Swapping in a CSW2012 for the OEM CSW1012. I sent the manufacturer an email asking for guidance. I suggested the wire run was around 4 feet, give or take. The response I got from Daryl at Sensata (Magnum), recommended 1GA wire and a 300A fuse. FYI.
Thanks for the information. It seems reasonable to assume that the requirements for a 2018 Navion would not be much different from that for a 2018 Fuse, and 4 feet seems about right.

I will keep that in mind if I decide to proceed with this project. It does not seem too expensive, especially compared to the Winnebago Lithium upgrade, which is $5300, but first I will check to see if my wife actually cares about me doing this.
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:09 AM   #15
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Thanks for the information. It seems reasonable to assume that the requirements for a 2018 Navion would not be much different from that for a 2018 Fuse, and 4 feet seems about right.

I will keep that in mind if I decide to proceed with this project. It does not seem too expensive, especially compared to the Winnebago Lithium upgrade, which is $5300, but first I will check to see if my wife actually cares about me doing this.
You're welcome. I decided to wait until the CSW1012 was definitely obsolete, couldn't keep up with our demands, or failed, before proceding. So far, it has done what we need, except run the M/W or A/C. If that changes, or it dies, I'll probably upgrade to a 2000W PSW. At least. We're usually able to run the generator briefly, if we need to use the M/W.
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Old 06-03-2020, 05:53 PM   #16
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One thing that has not been covered is that you will need to run some 120V AC wires from the output of the new 2000 watt inverter to the microwave circuit breaker. You may need to relocate the microwave CB to a sub panel. To much writing to try to explain what to look for and how to do it.

To install this wiring basically means looking at your RV and figuring out how and where to run the wiring and/or install a sub panel. A DIY person with electrical experience can figure it out and wire it up. From my experience in running wires in an RV, it can be time consuming work and a real PIA.
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Old 06-03-2020, 07:28 PM   #17
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aliflorida:

What you are saying, installing a subpanel to power the microwave, is what I was alluding to in my post above. I just don't think it is worth it.

The microwave currently has an outlet behind it, powered by the main AC panel. A much simpler way is to install a new outlet also behind the microwave powered by the new high wattage inverter. The downside is that you probably have to unscrew the microwave and pull it out to switch it from one to another each time you want to change the power source.

I have set up inverters with a "split buss" on boats that works automatically. But it takes a lot of rewiring and from my limited experience RVs are tougher to add new wiring runs than a boat.

An article on how to do it can be found in the Library/Misc section (click on upper right icon) of Trawlerforum.com.

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Old 06-03-2020, 08:17 PM   #18
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Or, you could run a higher gauge extension cord (10GA? - or hard wire it if you're a glutton for punishment) from the microwave power plug to the 2nd AC outlet on the CSW2012 inverter (if that's what you're going to replace the CSW1012 with?) and let the Sensata/Magnum inverter figure it out. If you only need to use the M/W once in a while. There's probably a wiring route from the M/W bay to the inverter, if the layout is similar to my Navion. My 1000W inverter is located almost directly below my M/W bay, in the outside compartment to the rear of the side door. Even if there isn't an easy route for wiring behind the sceens, you could deal with a short run of extension cord for M/W use? Maybe? whistling:
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:50 PM   #19
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We just returned from a short 2 day boondocking trip to the mountains and I got a chance to see exactly what my wife wanted to use as far as AC appliances are concerned, and the results were a bit surprising.

She wanted to use here electric tea pot (700 watts) and maybe the toaster (800 watts) but did not care if we did not use the microwave. In fact she said she preferred to heat the meals in a pan on the stove because she liked the ability to brown the food a bit more than she could in a microwave.

The tea kettle and the toaster are all within the ability of the present inverter so for the moment we are just using a 3 prong extension cord. I will try to find some way to ran that to the kitchen (which is on the opposite side in the RV from the inverter) but at least for the moment I guess I will also keep the existing inverter.

As with all things, this may change sooner rather than later.
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:00 PM   #20
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Mike, upgrade to the 2000 and she can do two things at once... multitasking.

The best part of having the systems you have is that you no longer have to worry about having the power to just do the things you want to do.

I know when I tell my wife, you can't run the microwave and the coffee maker at the same time she rolls her eyes... no, that's not true. Her eyes roll back into her head and she never hears a word I say.

It's only $500 and you didn't buy an expensive motorhome to "save money."
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