Upgrading the 1000 watt inverter

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by AJMike

We just returned from a short 2 day boondocking trip to the mountains and I got a chance to see exactly what my wife wanted to use as far as AC appliances are concerned, and the results were a bit surprising.

She wanted to use here electric tea pot (700 watts) and maybe the toaster (800 watts) but did not care if we did not use the microwave. In fact she said she preferred to heat the meals in a pan on the stove because she liked the ability to brown the food a bit more than she could in a microwave.

The tea kettle and the toaster are all within the ability of the present inverter so for the moment we are just using a 3 prong extension cord. I will try to find some way to ran that to the kitchen (which is on the opposite side in the RV from the inverter) but at least for the moment I guess I will also keep the existing inverter.

As with all things, this may change sooner rather than later.

Yes, don't go looking for trouble, as you'll usually find some.

My inverter is currently (pun) in the external storage compartment directly below the galley in my Navion, so if I ever decide to replace it, and run a second standalone AC power line (maybe a 10GA extension cord) from the second inverter outlet into the coach for the M/W, I may have an easier time finding a route. Also have to increase the fuse and battery to inverter cable sizes.
It's doable, but if you don't need it desperately, why bother?

[AJMike]

Having the 2 BB batteries gives me the feeling of freedom - the ability to pretty much do what we want with no more concern about running out of battery power. Of course there is still a limit but it no longer feels like I will not be able to start the engine tomorrow morning.

My immediate concern is how to run the wiring from the inverter (which is by the coach door) to the kitchen (which is across the isle). For the moment I will probably just run a 3 prong extension cord under the carpet we put down and up the side of the sink to where she can plug in either the toaster or the kettle. As a more permanent fix I would like to figure out how to actually install a new outlet in the kitchen to make the power available in a more professional looking way.

Lichtsinn suggested adding the Winnebago Lithium package which apparently pretty much makes 2000 watts of AC available to every outlet in the RV but I already have the batteries and $5300 (plus installation?) seems a bit excessive. $500 is a much easier pill to swallow and I suspect that wiring it to the batteries is not much work, even for me.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Having the 2 BB batteries gives me the feeling of freedom - the ability to pretty much do what we want with no more concern about running out of battery power. Of course there is still a limit but it no longer feels like I will not be able to start the engine tomorrow morning.

My immediate concern is how to run the wiring from the inverter (which is by the coach door) to the kitchen (which is across the isle). For the moment I will probably just run a 3 prong extension cord under the carpet we put down and up the side of the sink to where she can plug in either the toaster or the kettle. As a more permanent fix I would like to figure out how to actually install a new outlet in the kitchen to make the power available in a more professional looking way.

Lichtsinn suggested adding the Winnebago Lithium package which apparently pretty much makes 2000 watts of AC available to every outlet in the RV but I already have the batteries and $5300 (plus installation?) seems a bit excessive. $500 is a much easier pill to swallow and I suspect that wiring it to the batteries is not much work, even for me.

Just looked at your floor plan, and running a grounded extension cord looks like the easiest method, short term. Under a carpet works for me.

You mentioned Lichtsinn suggested the 2000W upgrade. How many outlets in your coach are currently on your existing CSW1012? In my Navion darn near every outlet is capable of running off my CSW1012. If you were to swap in the CSW2012, upgrade the battery cable and fuse, you could probably just plug the existing heavy duty grounded plug into the new inverter and the same AC outlets that worked off the 1000W inverter, should then work off the 2000W inverter, if you see what I'm saying?
That heavy duty grounded male plug that's plugged into my 1000W inverter outside in the storage compartment, is how the inverter powers all of my AC outlets, off of the batteries. I've always assumed it runs through the coach back to my converter/charger and AC/DC power control center. That's how the house AC outlets light up when I'm on batteries.
Make sense?
I also have at least one "inverted" AC outlet behind the forward TV cupboard, which just happens to be right next to my M/W. If I upgraded to a CSW2012 inverter, I could probably just run a short extension from behind the M/W to the cupboard next to it, and plug it in there for M/W use. Ugly, but functional. I currently use it to power the TV (as designed) and some other small stuff off an AC power bar, I added inside that TV cupboard. With sufficient inverter power I could use the M/W off of my lithiums.
Q: Do you have any "inverted" AC outlets anywhere close to your M/W location that you could plug it into? That would be your simplest answer to using the M/W off of your batteries. Not elegant, just simple.

Happy Friday night.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

You mentioned Lichtsinn suggested the 2000W upgrade. How many outlets in your coach are currently on your existing CSW1012? In my Navion darn near every outlet is capable of running off my CSW1012. If you were to swap in the CSW2012, upgrade the battery cable and fuse, you could probably just plug the existing heavy duty grounded plug into the new inverter and the same AC outlets that worked off the 1000W inverter, should then work off the 2000W inverter, if you see what I'm saying?
That heavy duty grounded male plug that's plugged into my 1000W inverter outside in the storage compartment, is how the inverter powers all of my AC outlets, off of the batteries. I've always assumed it runs through the coach back to my converter/charger and AC/DC power control center. That's how the house AC outlets light up when I'm on batteries.
Make sense?
I also have at least one "inverted" AC outlet behind the forward TV cupboard, which just happens to be right next to my M/W. If I upgraded to a CSW2012 inverter, I could probably just run a short extension from behind the M/W to the cupboard next to it, and plug it in there for M/W use. Ugly, but functional. I currently use it to power the TV (as designed) and some other small stuff off an AC power bar, I added inside that TV cupboard. With sufficient inverter power I could use the M/W off of my lithiums.
Q: Do you have any "inverted" AC outlets anywhere close to your M/W location that you could plug it into? That would be your simplest answer to using the M/W off of your batteries. Not elegant, just simple.

Happy Friday night.

In the Fuse there is only 1 outlet connected to the inverter (as far as I know) and it is for the rear TV. There is no power to that outlet unless I turn on the inverter. Oddly enough there is also another 110 outlet behind the front TV (although that TV is not plugged into it) and that has 110 volts regardless of whether or not the inverter is switched on. I only know of one inverter in the Fuse so I assume that it is also wired to the CS1012 as well but, as I said, the inverter does not have to be turned on for that outlet to work.

Lichtsinn's solution would be to replace the existing inverter/charger with either Victron or Xantrex inverter/charger rated for 2000 amps and then plug that into the wiring harness for the RV. I don't have the wiring diagram and probably could not make heads or tails of it if I did have it, but I assume they must be talking about the unit that sits under the refrigerator, not the simple inverter that sits under the cabinet and has an externally mounted on/off switch. They want between $3800 and $4700 for that solution, depending upon which inverter is chosen.

For the moment my plan is to buy a simple 3 prong 15 foot flat extension cord, run it under the rugs we put down and up between the sofa and the kitchen sink and just leave it there. My wife can then plug her kettle and/or toaster into the extension plug and see how that works. That solution is about $15-$20 depending upon the gauge of the extension cord.

I have several long term plans and am not sure which if any, I will actually try to implement. One involves finding a way to run a wire through the ceiling (as I assume the other wires already are) and down the wall to a new 110 outlet that I would put on the kitchen sink cabinet and wire a plug to the other side of the wire which I can then plug into a 2000 watt inverter. It would be easy to do that if I ran the wire outside the wall and ceiling but there may be a way to do it inside as well.

The second plan is to run it under the floor if I can find a way to do that and the third is to run it from the inverter up to the front seats, then across the width of the RV and back under the sofa to the kitchen cabinet. That would be easy since I would not have to run it in the walls and it would be largely out of the way and invisible, but would require a longer wire and thus a larger gauge.

The last plan is to just use the extension cord until my wife complains ...

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by AJMike

In the Fuse there is only 1 outlet connected to the inverter (as far as I know) and it is for the rear TV. There is no power to that outlet unless I turn on the inverter. Oddly enough there is also another 110 outlet behind the front TV (although that TV is not plugged into it) and that has 110 volts regardless of whether or not the inverter is switched on. I only know of one inverter in the Fuse so I assume that it is also wired to the CS1012 as well but, as I said, the inverter does not have to be turned on for that outlet to work.

OK, this is where I think we need some further experimentation/investigation. Something doesn't sound right here.
I would be asking myself, why would Winnebago install a decent Magnum 1000W PSW inverter just to run the rear TV in your coach?
I'm guessing that there are a lot of other outlets that are powered off the inverter, but you've got to test them, one at a time, with a 120V AC night light or something, to figure out which ones are hot when the inverter is on. Unplug from shore, turn off the generator, and any other sources of AC power to the coach, and turn on your existing inverter, and start to test the AC outlets for power. I did it, and found that a lot of the AC outlets in my coach are inverter powered.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

OK, this is where I think we need some further experimentation/investigation. Something doesn't sound right here.
I would be asking myself, why would Winnebago install a decent Magnum 1000W PSW inverter just to run the rear TV in your coach?
I'm guessing that there are a lot of other outlets that are powered off the inverter, but you've got to test them, one at a time, with a 120V AC night light or something, to figure out which ones are hot when the inverter is on. Unplug from shore, turn off the generator, and any other sources of AC power to the coach, and turn on your existing inverter, and start to test the AC outlets for power. I did it, and found that a lot of the AC outlets in my coach are inverter powered.

I tested this before but went back to the RV this morning to test it again. I was wrong about the outlet behind the front TV as it is also powered by the inverter. Here is what I found.

Outlet behind front TV - powered by the inverter
Outlet behind the rear TV - powered by the inverter

Outlet under the dining table - no power when inverter is on
Outlet over the living room sofa - no power when inverter is on
Outlet in the kitchen - no power when the inverter is on
Outlet at the microwave - no power when the inverter is on
Outlet in the bathroom - no power when the inverter is on

Outlet in the bedroom - powered by the inverter

The last is a surprise to me. It is in an very inconvenient location and I had completely forgotten that it was even there since we never use it. That is probably why I missed checking it initially but there was power to it when I turned on the inverter. Perhaps that is for a CPAP machine and Winnebago felt that it should have power.

[creativepart]

I would expect the TVs and the bedroom to be connected to the inverter - but I'd also guess there is one in the bathroom. That would be super common. Sometimes they hide it.

Oddly enough there is also another 110 outlet behind the front TV (although that TV is not plugged into it) and that has 110 volts regardless of whether or not the inverter is switched on.

And, ah, no, there is no outlet that has 110v AC power with the inverter off and you not plugged in to shore/gen power. That would be a "magical" AC outlet with connections not made by man.

Also, adding new outlets to an uprated inverter probably is a fairly simple change in the AC power panel. Well, fairly simple for someone that understands all that stuff, because I sure don't.

[Winterbagoal]

Hmm, I would have thought you'd have more stuff conected to the inverter.
I've got one on the outside wall of the lav beside the couch that's inverted, and all the outlets in the rear bed area are inverted, including the his and hers USB charging ports on the shelves above the beds. I don't think any outlet in the lav is hot when the inverter is on, but I may recheck that now. As well as the ones in behind the forward and rear TVs. I use the one on the outside of the lav to charge the Dyson V8 we take along, and to provide the AC power to my BC8S chassis battery charger setup when we're stationary.
I stand (or actually, I'm sitting) corrected.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by creativepart

I would expect the TVs and the bedroom to be connected to the inverter - but I'd also guess there is one in the bathroom. That would be super common. Sometimes they hide it.

And, ah, no, there is no outlet that has 110v AC power with the inverter off and you not plugged in to shore/gen power. That would be a "magical" AC outlet with connections not made by man.

You can see from the last posting that I made that there is no power to the bathroom outlet if the inverter is turned off and that I was mistaken about the front TV. It does require the inverter to be on for there to be power.

The idea that there was AC from behind the front TV apparently came from what I remembered when testing last year and that was that there was AC power there regardless of the setting on the inverter. My original thought was that there was some small hidden inverter that supplied AC to that outlet and that it was permanently on, but of course that was wrong. It is tied to the 1000 watt inverter.

Mea culpa.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

Hmm, I would have thought you'd have more stuff conected to the inverter.
I've got one on the outside wall of the lav beside the couch that's inverted, and all the outlets in the rear bed area are inverted, including the his and hers USB charging ports on the shelves above the beds. I don't think any outlet in the lav is hot when the inverter is on, but I may recheck that now. As well as the ones in behind the forward and rear TVs. I use the one on the outside of the lav to charge the Dyson V8 we take along, and to provide the AC power to my BC8S chassis battery charger setup when we're stationary.
I stand (or actually, I'm sitting) corrected.

Only the front and rear TV outlets and the single outlet in the bedroom are powered when the inverter is on. All of the others are off and that is unfortunate as I will have to do something to bring AC to the kitchen for the electric kettle and toaster.

Of course the bedroom USB ports are all DC and have power as long as the house battery is on. There are also some 12 volt outlets (used to be called cigarette lighters ) that are powered from the starter battery and there are some USB ports in the living area. I am not sure if those are powered by the chassis or house batteries, but of course those are all DC.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Only the front and rear TV outlets and the single outlet in the bedroom are powered when the inverter is on. All of the others are off and that is unfortunate as I will have to do something to bring AC to the kitchen for the electric kettle and toaster.

Of course the bedroom USB ports are all DC and have power as long as the house battery is on. There are also some 12 volt outlets (used to be called cigarette lighters ) that are powered from the starter battery and there are some USB ports in the living area. I am not sure if those are powered by the chassis or house batteries, but of course those are all DC.

Now you've got me doing it. Of course the USB ports are 12VDC. I was thinking about the phone chargers I've got that plug into 120VAC, but invert it to 12VDC for the phones.
S0C7 bad input data or S0C4 protection exception? Mea also culpa.

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by AJMike

I tested this before but went back to the RV this morning to test it again. I was wrong about the outlet behind the front TV as it is also powered by the inverter. Here is what I found.

Outlet behind front TV - powered by the inverter
Outlet behind the rear TV - powered by the inverter

Outlet under the dining table - no power when inverter is on
Outlet over the living room sofa - no power when inverter is on
Outlet in the kitchen - no power when the inverter is on
Outlet at the microwave - no power when the inverter is on
Outlet in the bathroom - no power when the inverter is on

Outlet in the bedroom - powered by the inverter

The last is a surprise to me. It is in an very inconvenient location and I had completely forgotten that it was even there since we never use it. That is probably why I missed checking it initially but there was power to it when I turned on the inverter. Perhaps that is for a CPAP machine and Winnebago felt that it should have power.

It is always so interesting how RV MFG's decide to wire the RV's they make.

Whoever at Winnebago designed the wiring for your RV never gave a though that maybe, just maybe, the people using the RV would want to plug their laptop into the AC outlet by the sofa, dinning table or in the bedroom. Or in the case of the bathroom, that someone might bring their "water pic" or electric tooth brush for dental hygiene. Go figure.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by al1florida

It is always so interesting how RV MFG's decide to wire the RV's they make.

Whoever at Winnebago designed the wiring for your RV never gave a though that maybe, just maybe, the people using the RV would want to plug their laptop into the AC outlet by the sofa, dinning table or in the bedroom. Or in the case of the bathroom, that someone might bring their "water pic" or electric tooth brush for dental hygiene. Go figure.

Perhaps it is because the Fuse is one of the lower priced small Class C models. I don't know if the same is true for models like the Navion with a higher starting price. That would be interesting to know.

Or perhaps they want to steer them to the Winnebago Lithium package. For the bargain price of only $5300 (I don't know if that includes installation) they can get 2 250AH Lithium batteries, a 2000 watt inverter that will power all of the 110 outlets and a "alternator control module" which, I assume is either a BIM or a DC-DC charger or equivalent and I suspect it is all covered by the Winnebago warranty.

[bobmac]

You might want to consider - if your motive for additional power for boondocking - how and when you are going to replace the capacity used with a large inverter for the following day. You would need a very significant amount of solar which is likely limited by your roof size and/or you would need to run the generator for a significant period to power the charger for the battery bank. At the end of the day, the best and simplest option is to run the generator for the limited time you require significant 120 volt power. If you have a propane generator on your fuse, you will have to consider the impact on the length of time you can boondock. For my dime, I would use the stove to boil water and skip the toast or turn the generator on as any heating appliance draws high current if fed from an inverter. Good luck,

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by bobmac

You might want to consider - if your motive for additional power for boondocking - how and when you are going to replace the capacity used with a large inverter for the following day. You would need a very significant amount of solar which is likely limited by your roof size and/or you would need to run the generator for a significant period to power the charger for the battery bank. At the end of the day, the best and simplest option is to run the generator for the limited time you require significant 120 volt power. If you have a propane generator on your fuse, you will have to consider the impact on the length of time you can boondock. For my dime, I would use the stove to boil water and skip the toast or turn the generator on as any heating appliance draws high current if fed from an inverter. Good luck,

A couple of comments.

With the compressor refrigerator and the general electronics that run, along with the DVD player and TV, I assume our daily electric usage is something between 80 and 110 AH in a 24 hour day. It depends, of course, on what time of the year, how hot and how much sun we are getting and how long we will be boondocking.

We have 3 100 watt flexible solar panels and this being southern Arizona in the summer we can pick up 100-120AH of charge if the sky is clear and if we are not in the shade. I have seen the Zamp solar controller telling me that we are getting just shy of 20AH near noon so we can pick up quite a bit. Less in the Winter because the sun is lower and less if we are in the shade (which, of course, we generally try to be in the warmer months).

However, life being as it is, we generally get less, and probably not enough to refill our usage. A real day (as compared to a perfect or theoretical day) might see us get 60-70AH which is less than our daily usage. However we almost never stay in one site for longer than 2 days. We may be on a long trip and expect to be on the road for 2 weeks or more, but we will travel between locations and that means running the engine and adding more power to the batteries every couple of days. Thus my main concern is making sure we have enough power for 2 days given how much we use and how much we can gain from solar.

Typically we will travel 4-6 hours between locations and thus we almost always arrive at our destination with a full battery. Spending 2 days losing perhaps 25-30AH per day means that we still have more than half of what our batteries can hold and so we don't generally need to run the generator. Even using the electric kettle, which is one thing my wife really, really wants to be able to do, does not add much to our usage so we generally are just fine with power.

There are times like our last trip where our return trip to home is only perhaps 2 hours and so we may arrive without a full battery pack. In fact we left our last dry camping location with about 45% power and since the drive was only 2 hours we were only at about 85% when we arrived home. Still, the solar panels will probably top off our batteries even though the RV is in covered storage. It does not get much light but it does get some in the shade and it will sit for a couple of week. I will be surprised if the batteries are not at 100% when we get it for our next trip.

One last comment. The sun is very strong here in the southwest and if we are traveling between May and October the inside of the RV will get fairly hot even in the shade - it was 92 F inside our Fuse on our last trip even though we were at over 7000 feet in the mountains and sitting in shade. It was pleasant outside with a nice breeze but the sun, even when shaded, tends to bake the RV. When it gets like that we just turn on the generator and run the AC and that takes care of any small loss we might otherwise see.

[gurroz]

Originally Posted by creativepart

If you switch to an Inverter/Charger you would remove your Converter. This adds expense to the installation but gets you a better charger and one better suited to your LiPo batteries.

My WBGO came from the factory with a Magnum 2000w inverter/charger. It's a good unit that costs about $1300 as a new part (Model: MS-2012). It has an internal transfer switch.

Currently, your converter/charger supplies all 12v sources when you're plugged in or running the genny. When you are not plugged in your batteries supply all the 12v power. With a inverter/charger your batteries ALWAYS run all 12v loads. When plugged in the charger keeps the batteries charged.

The charger in my Magnum is vastly better than the typical converter/charger's charger. It's a much smarter device and easily configurable with both pre-set configurations and total control for custom charge schemes.

One other option that's important in a new inverter is to get one with a transfer switch built in. Just as it sounds, you could have the inverter on and plug in to shore power or start your genny and the AC power is instantly transferred to the new source. And visa versa, when you unplug the invert simply takes over instantly. Outside AC current just passes through the Inverter when it's available.

Hope that answers your questions.

#Creativepart, great explanation!

[DavidM]

AJMike:

Your explanation makes perfect sense. But if you need to, cranking up the generator for 15 minutes to run the mocrowave, tea kettle or whatever is a reasonable thing to do to keep from drawing down your batteries to power an inverter.

Some are afraid of running a generator short term. I did it all the time on a boat.

David

[bkg]

Originally Posted by AJMike

I tested this before but went back to the RV this morning to test it again. I was wrong about the outlet behind the front TV as it is also powered by the inverter. Here is what I found.

Outlet behind front TV - powered by the inverter
Outlet behind the rear TV - powered by the inverter

Outlet under the dining table - no power when inverter is on
Outlet over the living room sofa - no power when inverter is on
Outlet in the kitchen - no power when the inverter is on
Outlet at the microwave - no power when the inverter is on
Outlet in the bathroom - no power when the inverter is on

Outlet in the bedroom - powered by the inverter

The last is a surprise to me. It is in an very inconvenient location and I had completely forgotten that it was even there since we never use it. That is probably why I missed checking it initially but there was power to it when I turned on the inverter. Perhaps that is for a CPAP machine and Winnebago felt that it should have power.

A wonderful thing about Winnebago is they have a very well laid out electrical plan and they share it with us; the end user.
By my expereince Winnebago has done a great job identifying the circuits from the load center. Typically BRN (usually has brown electrical tape on the HOT line at every device it feeds) is powered by the inverter when on or directly from the load center when the inverter is off.
I suggest going to the diagrams for your coach and printing these pages and highlight each of the circuits.
According to your diagram you do not have inverter powered outlet in your bath area. I assume this is to keep the load manageable for the inverter; a electric razor would hardly create any measurable load on the inverter, however, an electric hairdryer will.

While reviewing your coach schematics, I noticed your ITS (inverter transfer switch) is only rated for 15 amps (schematic page 4). Also, if you view page 6 you will note that the wire gauge for the inverter is 14-2 which is fed by a 15 amp breaker at the load center. Not enough for a microwave.

It might be worth considering adding an inverter just for the microwave circuit with the proper sized ITS.

One final note; your microwave circuit "could have" an EMS (electric management system) relay if you have a water heater with electric heat option. This is a power share option to prevent too much load at the same time on this one circuit (view schematic page 3 and 6)

More wiring diagrams for your Fuse can be found here.

Bobby

[tomingg]

Plug your shore power cord into an outlet on the inverter, turn off the breakers for the things you don’t need, or that common sense tells you the inverter won’t operate, like the a/c or microwave, reefer and converter, and presto, all your outlets will be powered by the inverter!

[DavidM]

If you have an inverter with an automatic transfer switch, that approach will instantly fry it unless you also turn off the AC breaker that feeds it.

David