Sorry. One more battery question

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by al1florida

The batteries that are used in RV's have AH ratings using the "20 hour" rate. Typically that is: " battery that can deliver 5 amps for 20 hours before it is discharged would have a 100 amp hour rating 5 Amps X 20 Hours = 100Amp Hours".

Thank you. That is exactly what I was hoping to find out - a simple way to compare the battery ratings so that I know I am comparing apples to apples.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

I understand that, that's why I said "best bang for the buck". The price is low, but the product will do what he wants it to do. And being dual purpose, it will likely recharge faster than a true deep cycle. Pay less, but get something that will work just fine for the OP's needs.
As a second thought, he could use 2 AGM GC2 6V batteries in series, but you're getting back up in price there.

I stand corrected. I should have checked Sam's Club. Same price as the 12V AGMs. More amp hours. Excellent reviews.
https://www.samsclub.com/p/duracell-...=login-success

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by al1florida

If your life style means you take 50-60% of your AH capacity every day, then you really should put a priority on lithium. Getting lead acid (even AGM lead acid) charged from 50% to 90-95% ever day is not a simple matter of running a generator for an hour or two.

The compressor refrigerator seems to take enough power out of our batteries overnight to reduce us to 50% if we are not hooked to shore power. That is the reason that I am looking for a larger pool of battery power.

Originally Posted by al1florida

2) There are less expensive DC to DC chargers available. A competent installer should not need more than 30 minutes to install, plus 2 new cables. You can find install manuals that give details on the install. Well worth reading.

Both installers recommended by BB suggested a BIM instead of a DC-DC charger. As I understand it the BIM switches connection between the alternator and the batteries so that the alternator is not pouring power into the battery constantly, but I don't know if one device is better than the other. BB gave me a price on the DC-DC charger, but they do sell the BIM as well. The BIM is much less expensive but I don't know if it is as good in keeping the alternator healthy.

One installer gave me a time estimate of 2 hours to install the BIM but I don't have an estimate from the second and have not pressed because I don't know if the BIM is good enough to replace the DC-DC charger. If so I suppose I could go with it and save perhaps $400.

I don't know a good replacement for the Sterling DC-DC charger that BB recommended but I am sure they exist. I would be happy with any suggestions for a 12v 60amp DC-DC charger.

Originally Posted by al1florida

3) I don't known if you really need a new converter/charger. Probably not. Battle Born should be able to advise you if their batteries need a different charger than what is in your RV

BB said that they needed the model of the converter/charger and I can't get that until Monday when I can call Winnebago. I looked at where I believe it to be (at the bottom of the wall where the fuse panel is) but there was nothing there to indicate what the model might be, assuming I was even looking in the right place.

Originally Posted by al1florida

4) This has NOTHING to do with installing lithium. If you are going to dry camp/boondock for more than overnight or 2 days, you MUST have a battery monitor. You are flying blind w/o the monitor.

Fair enough. I have a Victron 712 and it is scheduled to be installed on Monday.

Originally Posted by al1florida

5) Same with solar. You don't need more solar just because you go to lithium. Just the opposite. You can put more AH into lithium in an hour or two of generator time than you will ever get into lead acid. If you stay with AGM and use 30-50% of your battery AGM capacity each day you really should upgrade your solar.

Perhaps I am mistaken about this, but I assume that the more power I use the more power that has to be replaced and if that is done by solar then it depends upon how high the amperage coming from the solar is. I don't think that my solar panels can charge a Lithium battery faster than an AGM because I believe that the panels are already producing as much as they can. Perhaps I am missing something but my panels only produced about 100AH the last day we were out dry camping and that day it was sunny until about noon and then cloudy the rest of the day. I don't see how it can give me any more unless there are more panels or higher rated ones.

The generator is a different story and I assume it can pump out more than the batteries can take.

As far as the installers are concerned BB gave me 2 names in this area. One is a store front RV repair shop and they are the ones that gave me the $3500+ estimate. The second is a guy who works out of his home. I would be nervous about using him if not for the BB recommendation but, given that, I assume he knows what he is doing, and his rate is about 60% of the shop. He is the one doing the Viltron install on Monday and I suppose it is worth getting a full estimate from him as well.

As it sits with the only full Lithium install estimate that I have, the price of AGMs is about 1/4 the price of Lithium but the cost may be significantly lower with a BIM instead of a DC-DC charger (or with a less expensive DC-DC charger) and certainly lower if I don't need a converter charger. I should know more when I see the installer on Monday.

As before, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[al1florida]

AJMike, Responding to your last posting.

But first I need to revise my labor time estimate for installing a DC to DC charger. 30 minutes is to little. Probably 1-2 hours.

About DC to DC Charger or BIM.
-- Here is a link to a Renogy charger at Amazon, $190 for 40amp and $260 for the 60amp. https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Batter...07&sr=8-1&th=1
-- Here is a link to the Owner/Install Manual for the Renogy charger. I got the link from the Amazon link. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....1z5v01ClgS.pdf If you read though the install section you will get an idea of what it takes to install a DC to DC charger.
-- Keep in mind that many or most DC to DC chargers need to be protected from water and dust.
-- The BIM from Battle Born I believe is a sealed unit and can be install anywhere. I believe the BMI from Battle Born would the way to go. It probably could be installed in the engine compartment near to where the solenoid that connects the alternator to the house battery is probably located.

Yes, you are correct in that the more power you take from your batteries the more power you need to put back in. So, again yes, more solar would be great. However more solar applies to the AGM batteries even more than lithium.

I am going to assume you will be able to install a pair of Battle Born 100AH batteries in the space you have for your batteries. This will give you 200AH total capacity.

With lithium you will have a practical usable capacity of about 120-140AH. Yes I know you "can" use 80-90% of the lithium capacity. However there is the issue of getting the total amount of what you used back in the battery every day. That is if you don't get the 180-190AH back in the battery, say you only get to 80-90% full, you no longer have the full 180-190AH available for the 2nd day and beyond. NOTE: you are even more limited with lead acid batteries. Also if you don't regularly (every 5-7 days) get the batteries back to 100% the battery plates will sulfate and your capacity will drop a fair amount. This goes back how you will dry camp. If you get back to shore power after 2-7 days the lead acid would be fine. Also if you take 50% of the AH out of your lead acid batteries it may take 8-12 hours of constant charging to get to 100%.

With lithium hopefully your generator (or alternator) could put 60-80AH back in the battery with about 2 hours of run time. Now your 300watts of solar would do a very good job of topping off the batteries.

Lithium batteries are very happy with operating continuously with being discharged to about 30% full and back to 70-90% full. That goes back to my statement about only using 60-70% of your capacity each day.

You stated that this Monday you will have the Victron battery monitor installed. That is fantastic. Now you will be able to test your system under real life conditions. You don't have to go camping, just set up your RV in your drive way if you can, and run the fridge and what ever else you need to use to simulate your normal camping usage. Then run your generator and see just how it charges your existing batteries. Also the same with solar.

BTW, here is a link to some fairly basic but very good info about RV electrical systems, batteries, charging, examples of power consumption by various devices, solar, etc.
The 12volt Side of Life (Part 1)
The 12volt Side of Life Part 2
Some of the info is outdated, but the basics about battery usage, charging etc applies.

I have to add a final note about generator usage. Please be considerate when boondocking or dry camping and try to stay at least 100 yards away from others who do not run their generator. We boondock & dry camp a lot, and really love the freedom it gives by not needing to be in a RV Park hooked to shore facilities. I really, really dislike generators, my own included. Yes, modern generators are very quiet, but I can "hear" these quiet generators from 50-100 yards away. When those of us who boondock to be away from the noise and someone come up and parks 20-40 yards away and then cranks up their generator we can hear the sound. Most aggravating.

As your project moves forward, please keep us updated on how it all works out for you.

[Winterbagoal]

Regarding recharging lithum versus AGM FLA: The lithium batteres have lower internal resistance than FLA, which is why they recharge faster on the same amount of current. That's what Al meant by lithiums need less power/solar to recharge than FLA somewhere a few posts back, and you asked why.

[al1florida]

In addition to the lower resistance, what I have see for 9 years of golf cart batteries using 4 different inverter chargers is that while my 400AH of lead acid batteries would start off (generator/shore power) charging at 90 amps, within about 15 minutes the amps would drop to 80 amps or less and then within an hour I would be down to 40 amps or so. In 2 hours I may be down to 20 amps or less.
The last 4 years I have had 400AH of lithium and my Magnum 2000 inverter/charger will stay at higher amps longer.

The really nice thing about the lithium is I no longer care if I get to 100% full. 90% is fine and 80% works well also. We use about 150AH to occasionally 200AH a day and have 650 watts of solar which keeps us very well charged w/o running the generator.

[AJMike]

Thank you both for your posts, but it still leaves my question about the difference between a BIM and a DC-DC charger. As far as I can tell from the descriptions on the BB webpage they do different things - the BIM turns the connection between the alternator and the house batteries on and off at set intervals to protect the alternator and the DC-DC charger keeps a constant connection but regulates the current flow. Given that, which is better for Lithium? Or are they pretty much the same in terms of battery protection?

Will one allow faster charging than the other? Does one protect better than the other? How much power (amp flow?) does a new alternator apply to the batteries? And will a BIM allow too much flow, even for a short time?

I am just trying to figure out which is better and, if they are equivalent, if it might not be a good idea to save some money now by installing the BIM and then change to the DC-DC charger in a year or so when I hopefully have the money. That, along with the idea of getting only a single 100AH battery now and adding a second one next year, would effectively cut my immediate cost in half and provide me about as much power as 2 115AH AGM batteries.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by al1florida

In addition to the lower resistance, what I have see for 9 years of golf cart batteries using 4 different inverter chargers is that while my 400AH of lead acid batteries would start off (generator/shore power) charging at 90 amps, within about 15 minutes the amps would drop to 80 amps or less and then within an hour I would be down to 40 amps or so. In 2 hours I may be down to 20 amps or less.
The last 4 years I have had 400AH of lithium and my Magnum 2000 inverter/charger will stay at higher amps longer.

The really nice thing about the lithium is I no longer care if I get to 100% full. 90% is fine and 80% works well also. We use about 150AH to occasionally 200AH a day and have 650 watts of solar which keeps us very well charged w/o running the generator.

Totally agree about worrying about recharging to full all the time. Lithium has eliminated that little OCD problem that seems to plague the FLA battery crowd. Not to mention not having to occasionally desulphate/equalize. I've never been a battery bank micro-manager (oh my God, nooooo!!! ), and after switching to lithium, I hardly ever look at the displays, unless something odd happens, that requires it. So far that hasn't happened. We've got roughly half your system (200Ah battery + 300W solar), and it does us just fine for an overnight or other limited off grid use, so far. Set it, and forget it.

[Lefler39]

Originally Posted by AJMike

People have been great giving me information about replacing my undersized AGMs with either new AGMS or Lithium, and I have spoken with Battle Born and exchanged email with Dakota about installation.

One thing no one has really addressed is whether or not a Lithium installation requires some new device on the generator charge line as on the alternator charge line. Both BB and Dakota insisted that I would need either a BIM or a DC-DC charger for the alternator but no one specified if I needed something similar for the generator or for shore power. For those who have done this, have you needed to install anything for the generator charge line or for shore power (or are those the same power supply)? And, if so, what?

OK. I guess that is 2 questions ...

https://www.zampsolar.com/30amp

Winnebago factory installed ZAMP 30 AMP Solar controller is compatable with Lithium, AGM and lead Acid

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Lefler39

https://www.zampsolar.com/30amp

Winnebago factory installed ZAMP 30 AMP Solar controller is compatable with Lithium, AGM and lead Acid

Yes, but that is the solar charger. I was asking about the generator/shorepower charger and that is a completely different set of electronics.

[Lefler39]

Okay
It appears to me, your question has merit however Mercedes gave their alternator Off Grid capabilities for its van use in the construction industry including an AGM battery under the driver seat.
https://www.nationsstarteralternator...tors-s/283.htm

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Lefler39

Okay
It appears to me, your question has merit however Mercedes gave their alternator Off Grid capabilities for its van use in the construction industry including an AGM battery under the driver seat.
https://www.nationsstarteralternator...tors-s/283.htm

I guess I don't see how that applies since (1) I am talking about charging Lithium house batteries in an RV, not van AGM batteries and (2) the RV is on a Ford chassis, not a MB chassis.

I am just trying to understand if I need to change the inverter/charge controller in my Winnebago Fuse. That involves the generator and shore power, not anything like the alternator in the engine or the solar panels.

[thataway4]

Lots of good info. I have a Via--same basic Mercedes chassis. Same 200 amp alternator. Problem is alternator can overheat if running at full output for extended period of time. The BIM has a timer built in, to allow cooling of the alternator, so it is not under full load all of the time.

I have used 200 amp hours of Battle Born Batteries on my boat for 2 years now. I have the Sterling DC to DC charger. Mine is 30 amps because my outboard engine only produces 44 amps--and 30 amps is about right for "extra". I also have a Victron 2000 watt PSW inverter which has an 80 amp charger, programed specifically for the Li Fe battery. Also each of my chargers have temperature sensors set on the battery to prevent over heating!

For my RV, the BIM was not available when I was upgrading the system, so I went with the two Sam's Club Duracells AGM Golf Carts linked to above. Those have worked well for me. In the past I have also used their AGM group 31 batteries in my boats. On the boat I am running two Danfoss 35 compressors (one each on a chest type 65 qt freezer and a 45 quart refrigerator,). This should be about the same draw as your compressor refrigerator/freezer.

My concern with the Fuse setup would be the converter/charger. Be very sure it is compatible with the LiFePO4 batteries. I know that the one in my older Via is not. Also you want a charger which will really put power in the batteries (a 100 amp Magnum/2500 Watt inverter charger will do that--I had that unit on the 42' Diesel I sold a couple of years ago--worked great for 10 years!) The 80 amp charger on the Victron I mentioned above does it.

You really want a battery charger which runs off the generator (and shore power--the same thing) which pushes in the amps. The shorter you run the generator, the less noise, and wear and tear there will be. I can charge my 50% discharged BB batteries in about and hour and 30 minutes (or less) with the 80 amp charger. I run it until it is down to float charge stage. The converter / battery charger in your unit currently is probably not going to be LiFePO4 comparable. You cannot put a larger output converter charger without upgrading the wiring to the battery--may or may not be an issue. You need proper sized wire and fuses for increased output.

I don't know anything about the DC to DC charger which Renology has, but the Sterling DC to DC charger is well proven and a real work horse. You can get a 30 or 60 amp model. If were using it in an RV I would use the 60 amp...but the BIM is cheaper and better for your application.

The Victron battery monitor will give you a lot of information as to what the real current draw is and how much you use during a day or night.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by thataway4

Lots of good info. I have a Via--same basic Mercedes chassis. Same 200 amp alternator.

Similar, but not quite the same. Your Via is MB chassis while our Fuse is Ford, so it is a different alternator. Probably not very different, but not exactly the same either.

Originally Posted by thataway4

My concern with the Fuse setup would be the converter/charger. Be very sure it is compatible with the LiFePO4 batteries. I know that the one in my older Via is not. Also you want a charger which will really put power in the batteries (a 100 amp Magnum/2500 Watt inverter charger will do that--I had that unit on the 42' Diesel I sold a couple of years ago--worked great for 10 years!) The 80 amp charger on the Victron I mentioned above does it.

You really want a battery charger which runs off the generator (and shore power--the same thing) which pushes in the amps. The shorter you run the generator, the less noise, and wear and tear there will be. I can charge my 50% discharged BB batteries in about and hour and 30 minutes (or less) with the 80 amp charger. I run it until it is down to float charge stage. The converter / battery charger in your unit currently is probably not going to be LiFePO4 comparable. You cannot put a larger output converter charger without upgrading the wiring to the battery--may or may not be an issue. You need proper sized wire and fuses for increased output.

I was concerned about the converter/charger myself, so I emailed Progressive Dynamics and asked about it. They told me the model I have is a 45 amp model that will work with Lithium batteries, but by default will not output a high enough voltage. They told me I either need to get a remote dongle which I can use to temporarily raise the output voltage to 14.4 volts for 4 hours and then will automatically revert back to the 13.6 volts or I can replace it with the 45 amp Lithium compatible model. They told me either solution would work for Lithium batteries.

They told me they would send me the dongle and I will replace the converter/charger later this year or early next year.

Originally Posted by thataway4

I don't know anything about the DC to DC charger which Renology has, but the Sterling DC to DC charger is well proven and a real work horse. You can get a 30 or 60 amp model. If were using it in an RV I would use the 60 amp...but the BIM is cheaper and better for your application.

The Victron battery monitor will give you a lot of information as to what the real current draw is and how much you use during a day or night.

I was also thinking about the Victron DC-DC charger. It is only 30 amps but it is bluetooth enabled so I can use the smartphone app to tell what is going on with it. I will have to decide which DC-DC charger I want to use - the Renogy, the Victron or the Sterling.

As for the battery monitor, I am looking forward to getting out of the house with the RV and finding out exactly how much power the DC fridge actually uses.

Thanks for the information.

[hoosierrun]

Here is my experience with converting from 6 volt lead-acid to Battle Born lithium (100 AH each - total 2 batteries): I ordered the batteries and simply did a straight replacement (connected the 12 volt lithiums in parallel, of course). I changed my Magnum charger setting from lead-acid to AGM type 2. My rig came with a Magnum remote that had that capability. I also changed the solar setting to AGM. We went over a year with that setup including a very long trip to Alaska and several parts of Canada. I had no problems at all but noticed the Magnum charger did not really float the batteries. If I parked for several days and was plugged in, normal 12 volt items, like the lights and 12 volt control boards would slowly bring the batteries down. This really caused no problem on the trip because we rarely stayed in any one spot more than a few days. The beauty of lithium batteries is that there is no damage or degradation by leaving them discharged (unlike lead-acid or AGM).

Moving ahead to next year, I decided to add a Victron battery monitor to help me determine state-of-charge. I began to get a clearer picture of what was really happening over the next several months by observing the monitor. What I found is that the Mercedes alternator does not fully charge the batteries and I later learned that with these newer vehicles, the alternator drops from 14.4 volts to 13.8 volts in about 15 to 20 minutes. This is because the vehicle voltage regulator is looking at the chassis battery and when it is fully charged, it lowers the voltage to avoid cooking (over charging) the starter battery. So all along, I was rarely getting my lithium batteries more than 80 to 85% SOC. So, let me stop here and say that you do not want to use a BIM with a newer motorhome. I ultimately put in a Sterling 60 amp DC to DC converter and now I get my batteries to 100%. A 60 amp charger really only supplies about 40 amps to the battery if you are using a 12 volt refrigerator that draws 13 amps. A BIM only limits the current and does not raise the voltage needed for lithium charging (14.4 VDC). Even at 80 to 85% you will have considerably more capacity than your lead-acid or AGM if you stick to the 50% rule of discharge. You can take your lithium batteries safely to 10% or lower according to Battleborn with no degradation. I had no idea that I was not getting full charge on my first trip.

Back to the Magnum charger and longer term storage when plugged in: My older 2016 Magnum does not have a lithium profile so during long term storage, the batteries will slowly discharge to 30% before the float setting kicks on and brings it back to 90%. This is not supposed to be problem unless you want to suddenly go off the grid and won't be driving for a while to recharge the batteries (good solar will fill in most of the time). With the AGM2 setting, I can manually initiate an equalize on the battery and bring the batteries to full charge over the 4 hour timed equalize period. You are not really equalizing, but just taking advantage of the 14.4 volt capability for a few hours. Battleborn says this is perfectly acceptable and will cause no harm.

That about covers my experience. I think the take away here is that you can do a direct drop-in now and add the additional items later for optimization. I am very happy with my batteries and hope that they will last the lifetime of the RV.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by hoosierrun

I changed my Magnum charger setting from lead-acid to AGM type 2.

Hmm. Why did you use an AGM profile for Lithium batteries? Does your charger not have a Lithium profile?

Originally Posted by hoosierrun

Moving ahead to next year, I decided to add a Victron battery monitor to help me determine state-of-charge. I began to get a clearer picture of what was really happening over the next several months by observing the monitor. What I found is that the Mercedes alternator does not fully charge the batteries and I later learned that with these newer vehicles, the alternator drops from 14.4 volts to 13.8 volts in about 15 to 20 minutes.

Yes. That is why I am having a DC-DC charger installed between the alternator and the Lithium batteries now. That should insure that the charging voltage is proper for Lithium. You are using a Sterling charger, and BB says that is what they recommend, but I have also been looking at Renogy and Victron, both of whom market a DC-DC charger.

The tech as BB told me that 45 amps is probably the best charging current for the batteries so I will choose something less powerful than 60 amps. If I go for the Victron it will be 30 amps and if I use the Renogy it will be 40 amps.

My normal usage should not draw the batteries down far enough that 60-90 minutes of driving would not fully recharge them. Or that is what I think ...

I see now why you were using the AGM setting on your. controller.

Originally Posted by hoosierrun

So, let me stop here and say that you do not want to use a BIM with a newer motorhome.

I had come to the same conclusion. What surprises me is that there are reputable RV repair shops still telling people to put a BIM in to protect their alternator and Lithium batteries. One of them actually went to the trouble to try to convince me that the BIM was just as useful as a DC-DC charger with Lithium batteries and I suppose that might be true if you rely on your solar to top up the batteries after you arrive someplace, but I thought that it would be better to just go with the DC-DC charger from the get-go.

Originally Posted by hoosierrun

I think the take away here is that you can do a direct drop-in now and add the additional items later for optimization. I am very happy with my batteries and hope that they will last the lifetime of the RV.

My plan is to have 2 100AH batteries and a DC-DC charger installed. In the long term I will also need the converter/charger upgraded but Progressive Dynamics tells me that I can temporarily (for 4 hours) boost the charging voltage from shore power or the generator to 14.4 volts with my current unit by using a $10 remote to change its charge setting. They promised to send that to me but I have not seen it yet.

Later this year or perhaps early next year I will have the converter/charger upgraded to the Lithium model and that is probably all I need to do unless I also need more solar, but that is probably an issue for another thread.

[hoosierrun]

I did make a quick edit to state for the 60 amp DC to DC charger, 60 amps is really not the output to the batteries. That rating (at least for the Sterling model) is the maximum that the charger will draw from the alternator. There are losses in the conversion and cooling fan, plus as mentioned, your refrigerator will suck some amps (my old Dometic draws 13 amps) that takes away from battery charging amps.

On another board, I have been hearing reports of people with the 30 amp charger only getting 9 to 13 amps of charging capacity to the actual battery (refrigerator, other 12 volt draws, plus efficiency losses). Don't cut yourself short based on manufacturers misleading data.

[JoeC]

Relion battery did not indicated that a DC-DC converter for the alternator was necessary. Better, yes. Necessary, no. I've been running my lithium batteries on the alternator for a year now. It does just fine and all that I want to do now is stop the charge from the alternator when the batteries are close to full. I'd like to replace the "battery boost" switch with a switch that will lock in both positions and power off the interconnect solenoid (battery boost). Note: Battery manufacturers will likely be using different battery management and have different sensitivities and requirements. Use what is required or recommended by your battery manufacturer to avoid complications if a warranty replacement becomes necessary.

Most resources that I found indicated that the alternator may be damaged by a lithium battery bank that abruptly disconnects from the alternator to prevent overcharging. The starter battery, being still connected "should" save the alternator from destruction as the load abruptly changes. It would really be a minimal load change as the lithium batteries will be drawing less than an amp as they become full. in the research, nothing was definitely stated and was speculative. Once my house batteries get to 95% charged, I'm happy to leave them alone unless I'll be needing the power that evening, which is not likely to happen unless the sun won't be shining at all the next day and I won't be driving anywhere or plugging in to shore power.

[feiter]

I originally put 2 Renogy 100 AH Lithium on order through Amazon for $2100. After thinking about it I canceled that order and ordered 2 100 AH AGMs which I purchased for $440+. I do very little boondocking and really didn't feel I need the Lithium run time.

I also purchased and installed the Battery Monitor for $250.

pics are what I purchased.

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Well, this is both much more complicated and much more expensive than I imagined at first. I had the impression that changing to Lithium would require an expenditure for the batteries but not much more, but now I see that is completely wrong.

1) $2000 for batteries,
2) $500 or so for a DC-DC charger and installation,
3) $500 or so for a new charger for the new batteries and installation,
4) $400 or so for a battery monitor and installation,
5) $600+ to upgrade solar to provide charge for extra battery AH.

A local shop gave me an estimate of $3500+ without the extra solar. That is just too much for my budget so I guess I will look at AGM again.

Thanks for all the help. At least I can stop this thing before I end up spending much more than I expected, but it does leave me with another question about another subject (and another thread) ...

AJMike,
I’ve installed Li Battle Born batteries in my 18ND. I didn’t need any of #2, 3, 4 or 5 (The Zamp solar charger already had the software to select Li battery charging). I discussed what I was needed with the BB customer Service people to be sure. What wasn’t on your list was a Progressive Dynamics status remote pendant PD 92201V for Converter PD 9245C (allows ya to put the converter into the boost mode a couple of times a month). I DID decide to get a $45 AiLi battery monitor, but it isn’t required.