If I could get that evaporator coil to lean back 30 degrees or more I can open the tin on top while covering up the back where it used to come in. Then make the adjustments to the outgoing duct. It's only 2" off inwardly. I will post some pics tomorrow.
First we are wiring back up to the RV while unmounted and run tests that imnprsd and others are laying out. Like I was saying when the second compressor kicks in I hit at least 30 amps.
Always be sure you have capacitors within spec. AND ABOVE ALL ELSE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE 115V+.
...Then compare basement AC operation on shore power vs. generator power.
...Then move on to these trouble shooting steps:
* If you compressor will not start ==> Replace Hard Start Kit, and/or try increasing the start capacitor from 88-108uF to 132-163uF.
* Normally your Motor Starter (WXS5 or WSX7) will not fail. This is a thermal PTC-R type switch that is N.C. and then opens in split seconds after compressor starts... to take the start capacitor out of the circuit. This is what you want. (Visually inspect your Motor Starter and make sure it is not melted or physically damaged.)
Alternatively, you can get an SPP6 for less than $20 and see if that works.
Note: If you uses the SPP6 you do NOT use the OEM hard start kit or WSX5/7.
* NEVER change the uF rating for the run capacitor! ...All you can do is monkey with the Start Circuit; and if you are getting high amps it's because there is ADD RESISTANCE somewhere else in the circuit, or or ADDED DRAG causing the motor winding to work harder.
The windings inside the compressor do not fail that often, but 9x out of 10 the HVAC guys will say bad things about the compressor without doing any tests.
...JUST IGNORE THESE COMMENTS!
* Moving on... When a bad Overload device fails it will NOT let your compressor start at all. Unfortunately, you have to take the lid off to get to it. And to do that you have to remove the basement AC from the frame rails.
* To bad Coleman-Mach did not design the lid so you can take it off in sections. Maybe someday someone will come up with a method to cut the top and weld in supports; so you don't have to pull the AC all the way off the rails to work inside the box.
==> What I do not know is if your 30A total current is a symptom of the PTCR not opening, which is very bad as this will burn your start windings inside your compressor. Maybe? ...More likely your Run Capacitor is out of spec. TBD.
* L1 & L2 has separate wires, but if you check your main circuit panel you will see you have only one "bigger" neutral-return-wire.
==> You can't check the relays inside your ATS, but you can examine the terminal block when you take the cover off the ATS... and I would check this before you go messing with the wires inside the basement AC circuit box. Who knows you might find some burned wires inside.
WHAT TYPE OF ATS DO YOU HAVE?
IDK if the #2 compressor typically goes out before the #1 compressor? Can anyone answer this?
* If you start troubleshooting inside the basement AC circuit box, you might try this:
==> Swap wires at the relays first. I.e., if you know you #1 compressor works then:
* Turn off the CB to #2 compressor from inside the bedroom
* Swap the #1 relay wires with the #2 relay... so the #2 relay is now powering the #1 compressor... and see if the compressor starts? A) If it runs normal then your #2 relay is fine. And you already know your #1 relay is good since the #1 compressor is pulling the right number of Amps.
Now connect the #1 relay to the #2 compressor... and turn the CB back on... and then see what your current draw is.
Now follow the same "switcharew" with the #2 relay connected to the #1 compressor and see what happens?
==> Be sure to take pictures before you start working!!! And good luck.
PS
You might checkout his thread on how I'm experimenting with the addition of a portable AC, which is still a work in progress, and next week I will be in 90F, dry weather to see how much of a difference this makes.
rheine3: In a previous post you said you replaced your compressors. That being the case, I have some quesions:
* What is your full basement AC model number?
* Do you have Tecumseh compressor or Panasonic (Matsushita)?
* What is the cross-reference part number?
* Where did you find replacement compressors and how did they cost?
* Was your replacement compressor R-12 or R134?
----
Regarding your last post, what does this mean?
BlueCatELE 105-126 MFD (uF) Motor Start Capacitor
* What is BlueCatELE?
* Are you measuring your start capacitor?
* Your Motor Starter is likely a WSX5 or WSX7. This is a PTC-R bi-metal semiconductor switch. (See Picture below.)
* If you are having trouble starting a worn compressor, have you had good success increasing the start capacitor to 135-163uF? ...And keeping your WSX5/7?
Note: I included a Supco SPP4E that is a 120V Hard Start Kit that includes an electronic relay in the cap. That said, this device takes the place of your OEM Capacitor (83-108uF + Motor Starter). This is an inexpensive part that is widely available and cheap! Plus it has an electronic relay in that is NOT affected by high heat. So if you owners who are having trouble starting or re-starting your compressor in high heat (above 100F) then you might try using the SPP4E and bypass your OEM Hard Start Kit.
Remember: A "Hard Start Kit" consists of a Start Capacitor (83-108uF) and a Motor Start (WSX5 or WSX7).
Current situation. Did not replace compressors. I bought a whole new basement unit. We have the old out and are hooking it back up on the ground to run tests. With all this additional diagnostic info I want to try and salvage the old unit. BTW, the new unit is air return on the back. Coleman told me they do not make a replacement now for the 6537A871, Itasca Ellipse 2006. Running test later this afternoon. Tech told me people are cutting holes in the roof. That's not going to happen. I can answer more of these questions as soon as I crack the lid. Thank you,.
I got cold air but not sure what temp difference I should get. Anyway, I have to leave on Monday so I mounted it back up. I still think it's not back to normal. I will dig into it again in 10 days. Thanks.
rheine3: Did you say you bought a new basement AC and you are diagnosing your old one?
Are you suggesting you found a burned Motor Starter WSX5 and replaced it with the newer version WSX7? ...And then re-installed the old basement AC?
...If so, have you already taken delivery on the new basement AC?
...And now you are saying you are not sure if your repaired basement AC is working as efficiently as it should?
Have I got that right?
=== Motor Starter Talk ===
Your Motor Starter is a PTC-R. It's just a bi-metal (semiconductor) switch, but it gets real hot when it is plugged into low voltage (below 108V). I researched these things and they are just like the PTC-Rs used for refrigerators.
The difference is that your home refrigerator PTC-R uses cheap plastic to hold the PTCR in place (see picture above) and your WSX5/7 has a patent on the ceramic material encasement that will resist exposure to low voltage, but obviously only to a point... as you can tell it melts.
* Your WSX5/7 has ~20-ohms when cold. This you can check with an ohm meter.
* When your compressor starts the PTC-R heats up in milliseconds and this increases the PTC-R resistance. And when it reaches ~1000-ohms the PTC-R (bi-metal switch) opens the circuit and NO current pass thru... to the start windings in the compressor... and this is what you want!
==> Should the PTCR (Motor Starter) fail, then the start windings in the compressor will start heating up.
==> The overload device mounted on top of the compressor is supposed to be a back-up PTC-R switch, but it may fail over time too or worse burn out and your compressor will not start at all. Note: This is not necessarily a bad thing, because it will save your compressor from burning-up, but to replace the Overload Device (PTC-R) you have to remover the basement AC off the frame-rails so you can open the lid.
QUESTION: Where can you buy replacement Overload Devices?
=== Hard Start Kit Clarifications ===
* The OEM Hard Start Kit comes with a 88-108uF capacitor and this has nothing... repeat, nothing... to do with the run capacitor.
rheine3: What size start capacitor do you have? I don't recognize a 105-126 MFD (uF) capacitor.
* The SPP6 will work with 120V applications and as you can see by the picture posted above it has a higher capacitance value. And its widely available and cheap.
==> Some people claim that if you use a slightly higher Start Capacitor uF value you can start a weak compressor. TBD.
Alternatively, if your WSX5/7 motor starter is good, then I would buy a larger 135-162uF start capacitor and see if that works to fix a compressor that will not start.
=== Basement AC Efficiency ===
1A) Last week I was camping on the humid beaches of Port Aransas, TX... with my generator running.
* The OAT was 85F and my basement AC was blowing 64F out of my roof vents, giving me a -19F drop in temperature -- in humid weather (estimated at 75%).
* Theoretically, you can only expect a -20F drop from you basement AC.
* How you park your RV, relative to the sun, is a big factor on how much cooling you will get inside your RV.
I'm experimenting on how to best add a 8,000 BTU AC next to my couch.
This is still a work in progress, but in 1-2 weeks I will post my conclusions.
Presently, I am camping at The Reef in Rocky Point, Puerto Penasco, MX and Carlos (my favorite body and paint guy) is going to help me drill a hole in my side RV wall to hide the portable AC exhaust hose. Then I will install a vent and paint it to match my outside wall paint scheme.
In my 40' RV I can envision several locations to hide the AC from view, but with 3-slideouts I'm not sure which one I will pick.
For more information and to follow my progress go to:
You got it right. I ordered the new one. Then you guys started giving me diags. So I hooked up the old one ( on the ground) and started checking voltages and the thermostat bypass to start. So I have a new one on the bench ( with incompatible return air opening) and the old one is back installed in the basement. It
's not hard to get the unit out. I have a table lift. I put in four 6" frame bolts which allows me to drop the frame cradle low enough to slide the unit out, basement door still attached.
We are hatching a plan to use the new one. First choice is leaning the evaporator ( intake ) coil back to make it a top side return or gut the new unit into the old box. I have enough skilled help around to pull this off and it looks to be a fun project.
imnprsd very interested in your stealthy AC units. I have another RV, a long Class C, that would be a good candidate. I have thought of this myself .
We camp Port Aransas every year in March, sometimes s padre.
Since you asked, I have made great progress installing what I thought might be a supplement 8,000 BTU Portable Air Conditioner to my lounge area, I now am going to call my primary AC.
You can read all about here and see pictures of where I hid it. This GE 8,000 BTU Portable AC puts more "blowing" cold air into the main cabin and it fits like a glove in my cabinet. ...And what's more, inside the cabinet Winnebago put an outlet for me to plug the portable AC in!
This thing works great. However, the wall socket is on Circuit #1 as are the other wall sockets on the passenger slide, including my residential refrigerator. So, I'm considering the possibility of adding a 3-way switch to my Sub-Main Panel (aka Inverter Power Panel) so that I can choose which circuit I run the portable AC on.
Note: This is only a concern when running both my portable AC and my basement AC (total of 3 compressors) on generator power, because I'm learning you want to have L1 and L2 loads as close to being the same. This is what they mean by "load balancing".
This load balancing stuff is not as important on shore power, but the less current running though your ATS contact points the better. And right now, when everything is on Circuit #1, I'm at 28A and Circuit #2 is at 10A. So by adding a 3-way switch, that basically lets me choose the power source for Receptacle #1 in my Inverter Power Panel, will be running closer to L1=20A and L2=18A. (I will provide pictures when I finish the job.)
Here's the link to installing a portable AC and how to cut a hole in the side of your coach wall. (Note: I'm in Rocky Point, MX working with Carlos and tomorrow he is supposed to paint the outside vent so it blends in my RV paint scheme.) Overall, I am ecstatic about this upgrade and with 85F temperature it's actually too cooled to run all three compressors at once! ...Which more than I hoped for!
==> And much of the time I only will run my basement AC fans or just the basement compressor #1. So this will save the life of my basement AC and I hope to never wear the Colman-Mach out, which will save me a lot of money in maintenance. (The portable AC was $349 at Lowe's and I only had to buy the 6" exhaust vent on Amazon for $12. So this has to be one of the best upgrades I have every come up with.)
New info. I installed the new start caps, 132-163uF. Started up blew cold puling 21A. I was getting about a 14 degree split. About half hour in and still 2 degrees away from set temp the amps spiked to 44. A quick look at the unit showed no fan on through the compressor radiator. So I shut it down.
Just to be clear, you are saying your old Coleman-Mach basement AC fan motor was not working?
I presume you mean the "outboard fan" that pulls air thru the large condenser is not working? ...That would not cool down the compressor and would explain why the compressor got hot and then started pulling more amps.
* I'm surprised your overload PTCR did not shut down the compressor.
* How hot was it outside? How cold was it thru the vents. You said you got -14F, but your blower motor was not working. So I'm surprised you got that much temperature drop.
* You do know you used a slightly larger start capacitor, right? I assume this was intentional. Where you having trouble starting your AC or did you just want to bump-up the starting circuit?
* What did you do with the new basement AC you received?
Radiator measured 159F on shut down. Vents at 58F, outside 73F. The caps were recommended in an earlier post. I have to drop the unit now either way Maybe my fan bearings are shot.
I have the lid off the new AC unit. The radiator could lean back if I slide the fan over an inch and cut the large excess fan shaft off the back side. From there the only question is the size of the return opening. It would end up being about 1/3 of the original. It would still end up being larger than the cold output. The back side of the unit is up against some frame parts so ducting is out. This will all happen soon as it stops raining.
Update ( I'll post some pics tonight) Got the unit out on the table lift. Oiled up the condenser fan and changed the fan run cap with the same spec. Got good AC for 2.5 hours running 24A (11A and 13A) then I shut it down. I waited 10 minutes and turned it back on. The condenser fan is struggling to turn. I can see it move a few inches at a time trying to start. It's almost like the cap is not in the circuit, I shut her down and gave the fan a spin test. Effortless spinning and gliding. What is the deal.
A little more, I can't give it a spin to help it . She feels like a magnetic lock. The fan's cap is 12.24uf so right in spec. The old one was 9.1 but rated 12.5. Both compressor relays are being called via the 12v connectors. What is the the rev vlv in the wiring schematic for both relays. Sometimes the compressor fan starts fine for 10 secs shuts off for few and then starts again at what appears to be a higher speed. Sometimes it won't start like now.
Imnprsd, I saw another thread you were on where someone was putting in a new AC unit with the same conundrum, a side return air port. Same RV and year. I am pretty much done trying to fix the old one. I have a new plan for the new AC. I loved your insulation tips too so I am getting materials for that as well. I will be doing the install on Tuesday.
I'm certainly NOT an HVAC tech, but it would seem to me if you are having "start issues" you then I would look at several things:
* Clean the thermostat slide switch with contact cleaner.
Note: I think the AC circuit board has delay timers on it, but I'm not sure.
* Replace the 2 AC compressor relays (T92P7D22-12)
* Replace those cheap PTC-R parts on top of the compressor. (Overload and Coil Solenoid/Switch)
Note: I have no idea where to buy the Overload and Coil Solenoid parts. I'm sure they are available if you know the spec for these parts? So if you come across this information, please let us know.
==> With your lid off the basement AC box now you can measure the OHMS to the compressor real easy and if they are in spec your compressors should be good.
==> I'm also of the belief that you can measure the ohms of the wires leading to the outside, such that if in the future you think you are having a compressor problem then you can compare your current ohm reading to... let's say an ohm reading your did years before when you knew your compressors were working fine.
==> It's my understanding that it takes a lot of neglect for these Panasonic/Matsushita compressors to fail. I don't know if the Tecumseh compressors are just as durable?
==> In both cases it's the start windings that are higher ohms... conduct more heat... and are thinner wire. So these will fail first. And the reason why they would fail is if the PTC-R (Motor Starter WSX-5 or 7) sticks closed and does NOT remove the Hard Start Kit condenser from the circuit... buy creating an "open circuit"... which is what you want after the compressor starts.
Linear Mode
