View/Navion Lithium Smart Battery Option

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

Thanks much ... I learned something today! It looked to me like the poster had made a typo - by typing a 13.X instead of a 12.X in their post.

If that's the case for Battleborn lithiums, then definitely I'd have to change my RV's built-in 13.8V converter if I switched to Battleborns. My stock converter keeps our AGM batteries charged just fine by applying only ~13.8V on them day after day due to AGMs having much lower internal resistance than liquid lead-acid batteries. The only time my AGM batteries see 14.X volts is when the engine alternator is spinning.

I "assumed" that the lithium RV batteries now being offered in the standard 12V Group sizes were designed to have about the same resting terminal voltages as 12V lead-acid batteries.

Phil G, If you have a Progressive Dynamics Converter PD 9245C, then all you need is to buy the $11.20 Progressive Dynamics status remote pendant PD 92201V (on Amazon, of course). This pendant allows one to see what charging mode the converter is in as well as allowing one to charge the charging mode. In this case one needs to put the converter into the “boost” mode periodically; it charges up to about 14.4V for a few hours to “balance the batteries”. My info comes from the Battle Borne battery company, and “periodically” means “once or twice a month” depending on your usage. I have a previous post which has pictures of getting to the converter as well as a modification I made to the panel covering it to allow it to vent heat up into the pantry area above it (vice being contained in a rather small space: https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ml#post3851030

[Lefler39]

To all,
I have a Winnebago Navion 24V with the factory installed ZAMP 200 Watts of solar.

I have completed my research and have concluded to removed my 2017 - 75 AH (which are 32.5 AH @ 50% capacity) batteries . They are (2 ) - NAPA 12V Lead Acid batteries located within the top step of the interior of the cabin door entry. This area is limiting in space footage for multiple larger size batteries

I bought a (1) Group 31 12V Ri Lion 12V lithium 100 AH battery.

Insulation Setup

I placed an 8" x 2" x 28" board (sealed and soaked in Linseed oil) on the bottom tray which is an open air battery frame holder built by Winnebago. It measure it as 8.2" 3" x 23". I lined and insulated the bottom and sides with LP foil backed 3/4 Insulation. This product is used in GREEN home construction.

A Lithium battery needs an efficient interior temperature range of 26 to 104 degrees to operate properly.

I have attached photos for all to review

We shall leave for 8 months in August 2020 and will determine and learn the night time life expectancy of this new Battery upgrade installation

Any comments is encouraged

Enjoy!

[rprochnow]

We picked up our 2021 View 24D from Lichtsinn in early June. It came from the factory with the standard AGM batteries, 200W of solar panels and diesel generator.

Before we picked it up, Lichtsinn added 280W of additional solar panels to the roof, built-in surge protector, and Amp-L-Start. We also wanted lithium batteries, but due to the COVID crisis, they were missing some of the parts. Last week, I went back to Lichtsinn and they installed the lithium batteries, using the same parts Winnebago would use for a factory installation.

Winnebago is currently using two Lithionics 12V G31 125Ah batteries, providing a total of 3KWh of stored power. The installation requires new cabling (since the lithium batteries are 12V and run in parallel, while the AGM batteries are 6V and run in series), plus a new battery box is required (to replace the box used for the AGM batteries). Other than that, I believe the other changes are to the settings of the other components (solar control panel, Amp-L-Start) so they are aware lithium batteries are being used.

The stock control panels do not provide a % reading of current charge for the lithium batteries. However, that is available by installing the Lithionics smartphone app, which reads the status of each of the batteries over bluetooth when inside the RV.

It's our understanding the lithium batteries will be covered under the same warranty that we have for the rest of the coach.

[berniez]

I can see why the option is so expensive. These batteries retail are around $1800.00 each with bluetooth option. Wow.

[berniez]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

We picked up our 2021 View 24D from Lichtsinn in early June. It came from the factory with the standard AGM batteries, 200W of solar panels and diesel generator.

Before we picked it up, Lichtsinn added 280W of additional solar panels to the roof, built-in surge protector, and Amp-L-Start. We also wanted lithium batteries, but due to the COVID crisis, they were missing some of the parts. Last week, I went back to Lichtsinn and they installed the lithium batteries, using the same parts Winnebago would use for a factory installation.

Winnebago is currently using two Lithionics 12V G31 125Ah batteries, providing a total of 3KWh of stored power. The installation requires new cabling (since the lithium batteries are 12V and run in parallel, while the AGM batteries are 6V and run in series), plus a new battery box is required (to replace the box used for the AGM batteries). Other than that, I believe the other changes are to the settings of the other components (solar control panel, Amp-L-Start) so they are aware lithium batteries are being used.

The stock control panels do not provide a % reading of current charge for the lithium batteries. However, that is available by installing the Lithionics smartphone app, which reads the status of each of the batteries over bluetooth when inside the RV.

It's our understanding the lithium batteries will be covered under the same warranty that we have for the rest of the coach.

What was the difference in the battery box. Size?

[rprochnow]

I didn't get an opportunity to see the original vs. lithium battery boxes. According to Lichtsinn, the boxes are different - and that was the part that was out of stock initially and caused a one month delay in getting the lithium batteries installed.

Other batteries (like the Battleborn) are 100Ah - providing a total of 2.4 KWh of power. Using the higher capacity Lithionics batteries provides an increase to 3 KWh.

Only regret is that this still isn't enough to run the air conditioner off the batteries...

[DavidM]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

Only regret is that this still isn't enough to run the air conditioner off the batteries...

Oh, you might be able to run the A/C from the batteries for an hour or so if you had a large inverter. But how would you recharge them? That is the bigger problem with trying to run big loads for a long time. More batteries can solve the run time problem but it isn't easy to recharge a 10 kWhr battery bank quickly.

David

[rprochnow]

We have 15.4KW of solar panels charging over 50 KWh of lithium batteries at our house, and able to run 3 air conditioners for extended periods, though we had to add "hard starts" to our air conditioners.

The View 24D has a Coleman-Mach air conditioner that uses 1.35 to 1.625 KW while running. Even with full sun on our 480W of solar panels, the air conditioner would pull over 1KW of power, so we'd only be able to run the air conditioner for about 3 hours using the Lithionics 125Ah batteries.

And doing that would require installing a "soft start", to eliminate the power surge when the compressor kicks in.

The two Lithionic batteries can support up to a combined 200A draw, or 2.4 KW, so the batteries could support a larger inverter to support the A/C and allow other things to run in the coach - though only until the battery was exhausted.

We could look at replacing the diesel generator with a Volta battery system (like Winnebago uses in other models). A system about the same size as the QD 3200 generator would provide 16-20 KWh of power, enough to run the air conditioner for 10 hours. Though with only 480W of solar panels, recharging the Volta would also require running the Sprinter engine for an extended period to replenish the battery pack.

A larger upgrade would be replacing the stock 100W panels with higher capacity solar panels, and upgrading the charging hardware - but that probably wouldn't be enough to fully recharge a Volta battery pack, without also running the Sprinter engine.

So... It's disappointing we can't run the air conditioning - and based on the current technology, there doesn't seem to be a way to run the air conditioner off batteries. And will instead rely on the MaxxFan to circulate air, without any cooling...

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Lefler39

To all,
I have a Winnebago Navion 24V with the factory installed ZAMP 200 Watts of solar.

I have completed my research and have concluded to removed my 2017 - 75 AH (which are 32.5 AH @ 50% capacity) batteries . They are (2 ) - NAPA 12V Lead Acid batteries located within the top step of the interior of the cabin door entry. This area is limiting in space footage for multiple larger size batteries

I bought a (1) Group 31 12V Ri Lion 12V lithium 100 AH battery.

Insulation Setup

I placed an 8" x 2" x 28" board (sealed and soaked in Linseed oil) on the bottom tray which is an open air battery frame holder built by Winnebago. It measure it as 8.2" 3" x 23". I lined and insulated the bottom and sides with LP foil backed 3/4 Insulation. This product is used in GREEN home construction.

A Lithium battery needs an efficient interior temperature range of 26 to 104 degrees to operate properly.

I have attached photos for all to review

We shall leave for 8 months in August 2020 and will determine and learn the night time life expectancy of this new Battery upgrade installation

Any comments is encouraged

Enjoy!

Excess heat, over about 100* really reduces the capacity of Lithium batteries. Discharging down to about zero is not supposed to be a problem.

I would be cautious about charging or discharging your batteries in outside air temps over about 85* with the insulation you have around the batteries. Especially if the sun is shining While lithium doesn't generate as much heat when being charged or discharged as lead acid, they do generate some heat. Having the insulation around the batteries may allow them to go over about 100*.

Lithium can be "discharged" with battery internal temps down to about zero, but must not be "charged" at internal temps below freezing. I have seen that some lithium manufacturers state 26* is the low temp.

Note that this is internal battery temps, not outside temperatures. I try to emphasize about the "internal" temps because I have seen several comments in forum posts about not being able to use lithium in below freezing weather.

Is there a way with your battery to monitor the internal temp with an app or some device?

[Jfedor]

Do you have pics of the additional 280w. I’m picking up a 2022 24j and I’d like to add if that is just plug and play into the stock system. I thought we had to be careful mixing panel wattage?

Also, did they use the same zamp panels?

Thanks,
Josh

Originally Posted by rprochnow

We picked up our 2021 View 24D from Lichtsinn in early June. It came from the factory with the standard AGM batteries, 200W of solar panels and diesel generator.

Before we picked it up, Lichtsinn added 280W of additional solar panels to the roof, built-in surge protector, and Amp-L-Start. We also wanted lithium batteries, but due to the COVID crisis, they were missing some of the parts. Last week, I went back to Lichtsinn and they installed the lithium batteries, using the same parts Winnebago would use for a factory installation.

Winnebago is currently using two Lithionics 12V G31 125Ah batteries, providing a total of 3KWh of stored power. The installation requires new cabling (since the lithium batteries are 12V and run in parallel, while the AGM batteries are 6V and run in series), plus a new battery box is required (to replace the box used for the AGM batteries). Other than that, I believe the other changes are to the settings of the other components (solar control panel, Amp-L-Start) so they are aware lithium batteries are being used.

The stock control panels do not provide a % reading of current charge for the lithium batteries. However, that is available by installing the Lithionics smartphone app, which reads the status of each of the batteries over bluetooth when inside the RV.

It's our understanding the lithium batteries will be covered under the same warranty that we have for the rest of the coach.

[rprochnow]

RV in storage and don't have roof pictures.

Using stock solar controller, which is why we were limited to 280W.

Don't believe all panels must be same W...

[Jfedor]

Originally Posted by rprochnow

RV in storage and don't have roof pictures.

Using stock solar controller, which is why we were limited to 280W.

Don't believe all panels must be same W...

Thank you, Do you recall what brand was added?

[rprochnow]

Can't find any documentation on the specific panels installed. It's possible they used Zamp panels.

[Jfedor]

Thanks

[Lefler39]

Originally Posted by al1florida

Excess heat, over about 100* really reduces the capacity of Lithium batteries. Discharging down to about zero is not supposed to be a problem.

I would be cautious about charging or discharging your batteries in outside air temps over about 85* with the insulation you have around the batteries. Especially if the sun is shining While lithium doesn't generate as much heat when being charged or discharged as lead acid, they do generate some heat. Having the insulation around the batteries may allow them to go over about 100*.

Lithium can be "discharged" with battery internal temps down to about zero, but must not be "charged" at internal temps below freezing. I have seen that some lithium manufacturers state 26* is the low temp.

Note that this is internal battery temps, not outside temperatures. I try to emphasize about the "internal" temps because I have seen several comments in forum posts about not being able to use lithium in below freezing weather.

Is there a way with your battery to monitor the internal temp with an app or some device?

Thank you for this comment:

We added another additional 175 WATT solar Panel. Our setup is (2) Lithium 100 AH with a total of 375 WATTS of Solar. Winnebago factory ZAMP controller has a restriction of 450 WATTS of solar. (83% of Controller capacity) Our batteries are contained under the Winnebago Cabin carriage in the Top step of the Navion interior Cabin staircase. Plenty of airflow, always in Shade.

To answer your question: I placed a Temperature gauge on top of the batteries to monitor the Battery temperatures. Our Battery temperature range underneath the cabin in this step was 90 degrees to nighttime temperature down to 45 degrees.

Note:
The airflow in driving even though it was 110 in AZ during the day, driving on the highway kept the temperature down below 90. The AZ night time temperature was 89 degrees once parked in a RV Resort.

In response to your HEAT concern. We drove our Navion through CA., AZ, UT, WY, ID and WA..

We had No problem for 6 weeks of RV Living.

[DavidM]

You probably have a Zamp PWM controller as I don't think Zamp makes MPPT controllers. PWM controllers are limited to 12V solar panels connected in parallel. It doesn't matter if you mix and match solar panel sizes as long as the total wattage stays within Zamp's specs.

But I am a little concerned about 375 watts of panels all connected in parallel through what is probably a 10 gauge cable. 375 watts means as much as 30 amps could be applied to that cable. A typical run from the panels to the charge controller could be 15+ feet. That will result in a voltage drop of about 1 volt. That wastes a lot of power- about 8% and could result in the controller not working properly if the voltage is too low.

You could wire two panels in series if they are both the same size. Different sizes are a problem though. Wiring in series halves the current and halves the voltage drop. You do have to replace the controller with an MMPT type like one made by Renogy or Victron.

With half the voltage drop and better utilization of the solar power output you will probably pick up 15-20% in actual power delivered to your batteries.

David

[Lefler39]

Originally Posted by DavidM

You probably have a Zamp PWM controller as I don't think Zamp makes MPPT controllers. PWM controllers are limited to 12V solar panels connected in parallel. It doesn't matter if you mix and match solar panel sizes as long as the total wattage stays within Zamp's specs.

But I am a little concerned about 375 watts of panels all connected in parallel through what is probably a 10 gauge cable. 375 watts means as much as 30 amps could be applied to that cable. A typical run from the panels to the charge controller could be 15+ feet. That will result in a voltage drop of about 1 volt. That wastes a lot of power- about 8% and could result in the controller not working properly if the voltage is too low.

You could wire two panels in series if they are both the same size. Different sizes are a problem though. Wiring in series halves the current and halves the voltage drop. You do have to replace the controller with an MMPT type like one made by Renogy or Victron.

With half the voltage drop and better utilization of the solar power output you will probably pick up 15-20% in actual power delivered to your batteries.

David

Thank you for your comment, concern and analysis.

Zamp (PWM) Charge Controller and Roof top 3 port (Panel) connections

Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) technology that provides higher charging efficiency, and handles up to 500 watts of power.
It protects your 12-Volt AGM, Conventional lead acid (Wet), Gel and Calcium batteries, plus LTO LifeP04 lithium batteries. The device is designed to prevent battery overcharge, improve charge quality and prevent discharge in low or no light conditions.

Our recent RV Living travel experience in the Summer Months of the Western USA was enjoyable.

Our Navion has a dometic 12V Frig which operates 24/7. My thought on a upgrade and changing the NAPA factory batteries, adding additional solar was to increase, the speed to Full charge times to about 3.5 hours (+/-). The SUN plus the driving of the Alternator influence the charge times. My Battery monitor at night indicated we discharged to 50% (without propane generator usage).

[creativepart]

DavidM is usually spot on with his advice but, personally, I wouldn't worry about 375w and a 30-amp spec'd system (controller, roof port, 10-ga wire). At absolute optimum peak output - which never exists - 375w will never reach 30-amps at 12v. Sure it's close to that number, but would never reach let alone exceed that.

Zamp will say 500w is the max, and most others say 400 to 420w is the max that system can handle. So, I would not be concerned with 375w of solar panels. DavidM may disagree.

Winnebago does spec 10-ga wire from the roof to the controller which is theoretically adequate but I'd be happier with 8-ga. FYI, my system is 10-ga, too and it's a much larger RV. I'm less happy with the 10-ga wire from the Zamp controller to the battery bank. But again, theoretically it's fine.

[Jfedor]

Originally Posted by creativepart

DavidM is usually spot on with his advice but, personally, I wouldn't worry about 375w and a 30-amp spec'd system (controller, roof port, 10-ga wire). At absolute optimum peak output - which never exists - 375w will never reach 30-amps at 12v. Sure it's close to that number, but would never reach let alone exceed that.

Zamp will say 500w is the max, and most others say 400 to 420w is the max that system can handle. So, I would not be concerned with 375w of solar panels. DavidM may disagree.

Winnebago does spec 10-ga wire from the roof to the controller which is theoretically adequate but I'd be happier with 8-ga. FYI, my system is 10-ga, too and it's a much larger RV. I'm less happy with the 10-ga wire from the Zamp controller to the battery bank. But again, theoretically it's fine.

Anyone know if it’s possible to use the oem port and snake thicker cable through.

[lenore]

Originally Posted by Jfedor

Anyone know if it’s possible to use the oem port and snake thicker cable through.

Excellent question, the heavier cable would definetly be better.