View/Navion Lithium Smart Battery Option

[crah]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

I'd be interested in your findings - take a picture when you locate the charge mate.

I'll just carry my Battery Tender with me if we're staying anywhere longer than 2 weeks - I have a little plastic tool box I modified and keep it in so I can keep it outdoors and protected. I also have a small lithium jump starter battery I carry, just in case (previous tow-ed battery died a couple of times so I had to jump it when I got to my destination). I would like the Amp-L-Start type option (Xantrex recommended their Echo-charge unit designed for the lithium batteries), but the warranty issue has me paused at this point. If you go ahead and install one, take some pictures and let us know how it works out.

best,
Dave-oh

The charge mate pri sits under the passenger seat. The top post based on voltage goes to the chassis battery/alternator and the bottom post goes to the house battery. There is some type of xantrex controller in the battery compartment that may or may not connect to this charge mate to control the lithium? I'm only speculating on that last part and would have to see a wiring diagram. Seems the Amp L Start could easily be mounted to the charge mate.

First picture is the charge mate pro under the passenger seat, and the second picture is the xantrex controller in the battery compartment.

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

Attached the info on the charger that winnebago sent me. I don't really plan to dry camp significantly so I have not tried them out for that. I can' really speak to much about the battery system yet as we haven't really had the unit out yet. Will be heading to Myrtle Beach next week.

I have run a 1500 watt heater off of the inverter and basically tested the system, but not really monitored the charging rate. I also had a Xantrex LinkPro battery monitor installed, but may have jumped the gun on that one as the Xantrex monitor for the 2k watt inverter that WBGO includes is pretty good and additionally, the One Place monitor also gives info on the chassis battery charge as well as the coach batteries.

I wanted no maintenance on the batteries, maybe will upgrade they system in the future to be able to run the air-conditioning for a couple of hours while we're shopping so the dogs will be safe, but that won't be for a year or so.

Also of note: The chassis battery is not charged from shore power. I wanted a Trik-L-Start or some other device to allow that, but it will void the Mercedes Warranty (they apparently frown on different battery types being connected), so basically, if the View sits for more than 2 weeks, you'll need a charger - I got a Battery Tender for this purpose as I'm not willing to fight Mercedes about warranty issues and it is a very quick hookup.

Final issue: I did note that the Xantrex system was set to Flooded and not Lithium on the settings. An easy programming change to the lithium battery profile. Just noted that the other day as I was checking on the FLOAT voltage of the batteries.

As for the system cost: By the time I would be able to find a vendor that would be able to upgrade the batteries and such, I'm sure the cost wouldn't be much different (I'm not that handy). The cost for the option, although high, is Winnegago's "MSRP" and the final cost will be what you negotiate with your dealer....mine was 30% less than MSRP. Your mileage may vary.

I'll know a little more about the lithiums after the upcoming trip.

Good luck on your research.

best

Dave

PS: the ChargeMate Pro is the alternator charging system. The Xantrex Inverter/charging system manages the shore-power/generator charging.....

Dave-oh,
I offer a Clarification to your comment: ”I wanted a Trik-L-Start or some other device to allow that, but it will void the Mercedes Warranty”. Mercedes-Benz sells both a 25 amp and a 5 amp trickle charger for the OEM Sprinter chassis battery. The 25 amp one does starting AND trickle charging, but I only needed the (much less expensive) 5 amp trickle charger (model A0009822921;eBay has for about $120, now up to $170 on Amazon). I power it from a shore power source if stored for more than a few days or from one of the external power ports when camped for several days (needs an extension cord either way- just feed down through the engine compartment and underneath the RV to the power source). BTW, the local M-B parts source was more expensive and took longer to get than from Amazon for exactly the same unit). I connect it to the chassis battery using the convenient “jump start terminals” under the hood. Plenty of room to sit the charger so it is safe from theft and out of the rain. This has worked like a champ for me for the last 2 years- now no more concern about how fast the chassis battery is bleeding down to the “go no lower than” 12.2V level.

[Dave-Oh]

Originally Posted by jcurtisis

Dave-oh,
I offer a Clarification to your comment: ”I wanted a Trik-L-Start or some other device to allow that, but it will void the Mercedes Warranty”. Mercedes-Benz sells both a 25 amp and a 5 amp trickle charger for the OEM Sprinter chassis battery. The 25 amp one does starting AND trickle charging, but I only needed the (much less expensive) 5 amp trickle charger (model A0009822921;eBay has for about $120, now up to $170 on Amazon). I power it from a shore power source if stored for more than a few days or from one of the external power ports when camped for several days (needs an extension cord either way- just feed down through the engine compartment and underneath the RV to the power source). BTW, the local M-B parts source was more expensive and took longer to get than from Amazon for exactly the same unit). I connect it to the chassis battery using the convenient “jump start terminals” under the hood. Plenty of room to sit the charger so it is safe from theft and out of the rain. This has worked like a champ for me for the last 2 years- now no more concern about how fast the chassis battery is bleeding down to the “go no lower than” 12.2V level.

Got it! I got a 5 amp Battery Tender and connect to the jump start terminals as well. MB is wicked expensive for it's stuff, so if I can get a good quality alternative, I will (for example: MB wanted $730 for an SD card for my wife's MB that has the Garmin Mapping system on it. I got the OEM, MB branded correct SD card for about $50 on eBay.

Packing for a trip down to Myrtle Beach this week to shake the systems out and see how everything else works. Just fired up the Truma tankless water heater after de-winterizng....WOW!

So far, I'm really liking the rig. Love not adding water to the batteries.....

[jcurtisis]

Sweet! I also love the maintenance free aspect- it was such a pain to pry off the covers of those L-A Napa batteries. Njoy Myrtle beach!

[Hammerhead]

This may not be the answer you want to hear, but I purchased my View last year and it was a big mistake when considering the amount of dry camping I do.
The fundamental problem is the move by Winnebago to a Norcold compressor refrigerator, which runs 24/7 and drains the batteries.

Instead of offering a $5,000 option for lithium batteries, they need to offer an option to get the tried & true 3 way refrigerator.
As much as Winnebago wants to promote these units for getting to the "outdoors", they are really designed to be used in full service campgrounds.

Camping in State, County, National Parks & Forests where there is no shore power (Boondocking) often have restrictions on when/if generators are to be used, beside the fact that the diesel generator is loud & smelly to my neighbors.

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

This may not be the answer you want to hear, but I purchased my View last year and it was a big mistake when considering the amount of dry camping I do.
The fundamental problem is the move by Winnebago to a Norcold compressor refrigerator, which runs 24/7 and drains the batteries.

Instead of offering a $5,000 option for lithium batteries, they need to offer an option to get the tried & true 3 way refrigerator.
As much as Winnebago wants to promote these units for getting to the "outdoors", they are really designed to be used in full service campgrounds.

Camping in State, County, National Parks & Forests where there is no shore power (Boondocking) often have restrictions on when/if generators are to be used, beside the fact that the diesel generator is loud & smelly to my neighbors.

X2 on that!

Our 15 year old Itasca 24V Class C has a 6.3 cu ft Norcold 2-way propane/120V-AC refrigerator in it and it has been excellent for drycamping. It cools/freezes and keeps cold/frozen our food just fine in all conditions, and just sips the batttery power (for the control board) and propane when doing so out in the boondocks.

I'm not sure where all the negatives are coming from on good old propane refrigerators in an RV. Maybe they don't build propane refrigerators anymore like they used to.

[Dave-Oh]

I was able to run a mild test running the fridge (and the light on in the water compartment which I didn't know about) for 7 hours. At the beginning the battery was at 13.6 volts (float). At the end of the 7 hours, the voltage was 13.2 volts. We were loading the fridge and getting ready for a trip tomorrow, so it did run a bit more than if we'd just left it closed. Weather was 60 - 64 degrees. According to a voltage chart, 13.2 volts comes out to about 70% of capacity left. The solar was on and it was partly sunny and the solar was contributing about .5 amps plus or minus. I didn't trying charging using the genset this time.

Just some info for any who are curious. I'm pretty happy with the performance. But I won't be testing the limits of the batteries.

[creativepart]

Dave, it's not a really helpful "test" until you do the same thing with the fridge at full cold temp and all the food inside is fully cooled down, as well.

Loading warm food in the fridge, even when the fridge itself is fully cold (you didn't mention if it was or not), seriously draws the maximum in power from your batteries. Especially, if you're opening the door over and over again.

The test you did is basically an extreme situation. Not a real world day to day out boondocking test.

One more thing, using voltage to gauge your results is really hit or miss. If you installed a shunt-based Battery Monitor then you'd have the real world info you need.

[Dave-Oh]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Dave, it's not a really helpful "test" until you do the same thing with the fridge at full cold temp and all the food inside is fully cooled down, as well.

Loading warm food in the fridge, even when the fridge itself is fully cold (you didn't mention if it was or not), seriously draws the maximum in power from your batteries. Especially, if you're opening the door over and over again.

The test you did is basically an extreme situation. Not a real world day to day out boondocking test.

One more thing, using voltage to gauge your results is really hit or miss. If you installed a shunt-based Battery Monitor then you'd have the real world info you need.

Perhaps true.

1. Food was transferred from fridge to fridge with the RV fridge pre-cooled.
2. an "extreme situation" test would still be helpful, as it gives an idea of battery usage under harsh conditions...better conditions would yield more battery life?
3. I do have a shunt-based monitor, but it was installed "backwards" yielding no data for the coach batteries except voltage and the main info all on the chassis battery. I used the data which is displayed in the Xantrec remote monitor and the "one-place" monitor as well. Volts is all I got right now.

Basically, just putting out some information out for folks to use or not, I realize it's not the best information, but it may help some who are looking for an idea of what the lithium option is capable of. I am new to this type of battery and obviously much less capable than many who are very experienced.

Let's just say: I won't have to worry about th foe food in the fridge for at least overnight if I don't have a site with electric. AND I won't have to add water to the batteries. ever.

best,

Dave

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

Basically, just putting out some information out for folks to use or not, I realize it's not the best information, but it may help some who are looking for an idea of what the lithium option is capable of.

Absolutely. Good info.

In my experience with boondocking/dry camping each time is another data point and learning experience. These experiences build confidence in our equipment and our capabilities.

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

I was able to run a mild test running the fridge (and the light on in the water compartment which I didn't know about) for 7 hours. At the beginning the battery was at 13.6 volts (float). At the end of the 7 hours, the voltage was 13.2 volts. We were loading the fridge and getting ready for a trip tomorrow, so it did run a bit more than if we'd just left it closed. Weather was 60 - 64 degrees. According to a voltage chart, 13.2 volts comes out to about 70% of capacity left. The solar was on and it was partly sunny and the solar was contributing about .5 amps plus or minus. I didn't trying charging using the genset this time.

Just some info for any who are curious. I'm pretty happy with the performance. But I won't be testing the limits of the batteries.

Hmmm ... I'm really curious about the voltages you're mentioning above:

What lead-acid based (wet or dry) or lithium based batteries - when disconnected from a charging source but still powering some load - can sit at 13.2 volts after several hours? Nothing in the literature on the various battery technologies suggests that this is possible.

I can understand the sun and you're solar controller causing 13.X volts to be read on your battery terminals if the solar charge rate is able to stay ahead of battery drain rate ... but I can't understand batteries on their own reading that high hours after a charging source has been removed. Even if nothing is connected to the batteries, usually surface charge dissipates faster than that.

(However, I may have misunderstood your description of what was happening.)

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

What lead-acid based (wet or dry) or lithium based batteries - when disconnected from a charging source but still powering some load - can sit at 13.2 volts after several hours?

I think Battleborn LiPo batteries have a 13.7 resting voltage - unlike an AGM for FLA battery with a 12.7v resting voltage.

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by creativepart

I think Battleborn LiPo batteries have a 13.7 resting voltage - unlike an AGM for FLA battery with a 12.7v resting voltage.

Thanks much ... I learned something today! It looked to me like the poster had made a typo - by typing a 13.X instead of a 12.X in their post.

If that's the case for Battleborn lithiums, then definitely I'd have to change my RV's built-in 13.8V converter if I switched to Battleborns. My stock converter keeps our AGM batteries charged just fine by applying only ~13.8V on them day after day due to AGMs having much lower internal resistance than liquid lead-acid batteries. The only time my AGM batteries see 14.X volts is when the engine alternator is spinning.

I "assumed" that the lithium RV batteries now being offered in the standard 12V Group sizes were designed to have about the same resting terminal voltages as 12V lead-acid batteries.

[creativepart]

Actually, I sounds like if your converter charges at 13.8v you'd be all set with it on the AGM charging profile.

Probably, if you had Lithium batteries you might replace that converter with a state of the art inverter/charger and then you'd really be all set.

[Dave-Oh]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

Hmmm ... I'm really curious about the voltages you're mentioning above:

What lead-acid based (wet or dry) or lithium based batteries - when disconnected from a charging source but still powering some load - can sit at 13.2 volts after several hours? Nothing in the literature on the various battery technologies suggests that this is possible.

I can understand the sun and you're solar controller causing 13.X volts to be read on your battery terminals if the solar charge rate is able to stay ahead of battery drain rate ... but I can't understand batteries on their own reading that high hours after a charging source has been removed. Even if nothing is connected to the batteries, usually surface charge dissipates faster than that.

(However, I may have misunderstood your description of what was happening.)

Lithium batteries are new to me, but my understanding is that they have a rather flat discharge profile - it's why more experienced folks don't like to use voltage as an indicator of state of charge.

The batteries in the View are Xantrex Never Die. Should be an attachment in the previous posts that will give specs.

An example of typical LiFePO battery discharge profile is attached as an example of the flat discharging profile in lithiums.

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

Lithium batteries are new to me, but my understanding is that they have a rather flat discharge profile - it's why more experienced folks don't like to use voltage as an indicator of state of charge.

The batteries in the View are Xantrex Never Die. Should be an attachment in the previous posts that will give specs.

An example of typical LiFePO battery discharge profile is attached as an example of the flat discharging profile in lithiums.

Dave-Oh,
You are absolutly correct. The voltage level of lithium stays very flat throughout the discharge cycle.
Just as your chart shows, the normal resting voltage of the lithium cell is 3.2V and 4 cells make up the lithium "12V" battery. The typical voltage of the "12V" battery is about 13.2V.

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by al1florida

Dave-Oh,
You are absolutly correct. The voltage level of lithium stays very flat throughout the discharge cycle.
Just as your chart shows, the normal resting voltage of the lithium cell is 3.2V and 4 cells make up the lithium "12V" battery. The typical voltage of the "12V" battery is about 13.2V.

Hmmm ... it seems to me like:

1. For a lithium battery - 3.2 volts times 4 equals 12.8 resting volts - not 13.X volts.

2. For a fully charged liquid lead acid battery - their resting voltage should be 12.6 to 12.8 volts. (Some lead acid AGM batteries may rest at a higher voltage, however.)

So there still might be some confusion going on.

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

Hmmm ... it seems to me like:

1. For a lithium battery - 3.2 volts times 4 equals 12.8 resting volts - not 13.X volts.

2. For a fully charged liquid lead acid battery - their resting voltage should be 12.6 to 12.8 volts. (Some lead acid AGM batteries may rest at a higher voltage, however.)

So there still might be some confusion going on.

WOW! I sure didn't do my math correctly. Yep, 3.2V per cell by 4 cells is 12.8V.
Senior moments are coming more often these days.

[Dave-Oh]

Oy Vey!

The chart I posted was so folks could see the DISCHARGE PROFILE of typical LiFePO batteries - not get hung up on the math. So let me try again so that the idea of a battery living in the 13volt range as opposed to the 12 volt range is a bit clearer. Attached is a voltage chart for a typical, 12 volt Lithium Iron Phosphate battery like the ones in the View. I hope it will be helpful in demonstrating the different profile of lithiums vs flooded lead batteries:

[al1florida]

Originally Posted by Dave-Oh

Oy Vey!

The chart I posted was so folks could see the DISCHARGE PROFILE of typical LiFePO batteries - not get hung up on the math. So let me try again so that the idea of a battery living in the 13volt range as opposed to the 12 volt range is a bit clearer. Attached is a voltage chart for a typical, 12 volt Lithium Iron Phosphate battery like the ones in the View. I hope it will be helpful in demonstrating the different profile of lithiums vs flooded lead batteries:

The chart you provided is very close to what I see with my lithium battery pack.
I am starting my 4th year on my 400AH battery pack along with a pair of residential sized 325 watt solar panels (650 watts total).

We dry camp or boondock extensively, at times going for 2-4 weeks or longer between hooking up to shore power. On our Alaska trip in 2016 we went for 4 1/2 months w/o shore power and only ran our generator once for a couple of hours to charge the batteries because of a string of very cloudy days. Also the engine alternator did not charge the batteries while driving. We typically use from 100AH to 150AH a day.

What I don't believe has been mentioned here is one of the really great benefits of lithium is that they don't need to be charged to 100% "ever". They are perfectly happy being cycled between 30%-40% to 60%-80% full.

With any lead acid batteries, if you don't get them charged back to 100% every 5-7 days or so, and do that frequently you will find the capacity of your battery will drop noticeably. Monthly equalization will help, but not cure the problem.

Getting lead acid batteries back to 100% is not that easy. If you have a 400AH battery pack and 400AH of solar, then take 200AH (50% discharge) out of the batteries, it is a challenge to get that 200AH back into the battery. Running the generator for an hour or two every morning does help if you have nice sunny days for the solar to finish charging the batteries.

However for the majority of RV'ers, they don't dry camp or boondock for long periods of time, such as 3-4 weeks or more. They dry camp for 1-5 nights and then back on shore power. So lead acid batteries work just fine for them.