Limitations of all electric fridge and solar panels

[gurroz]

We have always practiced the 7 P's. It has served us well!

[SeeTheUSA]

I think I recall getting all of the pros and cons from sellers prior to purchasing homes, cars, vacations, electronics, cruises, lawn mowers, tools and so many other items.

Just kidding. Had to figure it out for myself. That being said, this compressor fridge thing has been one of the most interesting and enlightening (even sometimes frustrating!).

[Kayak73]

Whew! I vaguely remember some slight frustration even I experienced early in ownership of this View with the compressor fridge. Yeah. Now it is over, life is good, refrigerator works pretty good, still a bit noisy. I don't even look for a "sunny" campsite now. The generator runs about 30-45 minutes in the AM and life goes on. The Lithium specific charger puts out real 45 amps and those things take a charge really fast. I tried the big Trojans, not possible to recharge them even running genny all day and after 3 days I was behind the curve. Doesn't matter I had 300AH of Trojans, what mattered is the TIME it takes to recharge those beasts. LiFeP04 is the answer with a specific charger. Done. Some folks are lucky enough to find sunshine and get a recharge with the solar, never really seemed to work out for us. I figure no one will shoot me for running the generator for the short time it takes to recharge the lithium.

[Kayak73]

Oh yeah, someone mentioned a KillAWatt to measure watts used by a compressor fridge. That will work if you have a residential fridge but the fridge in our View is DC only. For that I suggest what I did. Use a Fluke clamp meter on the most negative battery lead and chart the amps used. If you look you can find my posts on that research; graphs showing the amps used in cycles. In the world of DC refrigerator you must know the amps used and the cycle time to calculate the Amp Hours needed to support the thing in a 24 hour period. Clamp on the Fluke and graph to your phone for a day of normal usage simulated with everything else off, then measure a "normal" day of usage to get an idea of what you need to do. It was tedious. It also proved no realistic combination of FLA batteries would really work in the View with this fridge for a week long boondock. Take everything into consideration and you will get the picture. If you install a good battery monitor it could make life easier to get the answer. Nitty gritty with a Fluke just proves it. Three days, time to find a power pole and plug up or go LiFeP04.

There are several reasons for this and one is that the PD9245 is not putting a 45 amp charge back into your batteries. I usually measured about 8 - 10 amps. Explanation - look at the gauge of wire from the PD9245 to the batteries. Put in LiFeP04 and install the lithium charger in the bay next to the steps. You can then use the inverter cables for the charge line, no problem getting the 45 amps right to the new battery.

[DavidM]

Your use of a Fluke clamp on ammeter plus an iPhone amp to integrate amp hours and time is an interesting concept. Tedious, yes!

I would just install a Renogy (<$100) or a Victron ($130) battery monitor and it does it all for you.

Anyone who is trying to manage their DC amp load should install a battery monitor.

David

[Kayak73]

I could not agree more. Quoted from my post immediately above:

If you install a good battery monitor it could make life easier to get the answer. Nitty gritty with a Fluke just proves it. Three days, time to find a power pole and plug up or go LiFeP04.

I was more specifically interested in learning the electrical operating characteristics of the DC fridge. Start up amps, cycle length etc. None of which any good battery monitor will show you. That was during a time when we (new 2018 View owners) were scratching heads, mumbling words and going nuts trying to get answers for lost food and fridge issues. All in the past. Except sometimes if you want the answer you must use the right tools, I did. Electric motors have a startup surge amperage, a running amperage and a cycle time in this case. I needed to know all those things at the time.

Mostly the battery monitor depends on the user as well. You must periodically adjust it for life cycle of the batteries although there is one model now available which simulates that. It is a guess only but far better than any other thing most will use to determine if they are putting back enough amp hours into the batteries to continue the boondock.

Using my Fluke I produced graphs of time intervals showing all those things. For example if the fridge maker says 3 amps operating what does that mean. Graph a time interval showing the amps used per cycle in that interval. Pretty pictures too. Another thought is most people think the sound they hear indicates the refrigerator cycle or operation. My graphs show that is absolutely very far from true. You will not hear the start up etc. You hear a fan.

[SeeTheUSA]

For anyone who has installed a battery monitor on a View or Navion, please explain how you did it ... I’m going to get one, probably the Renogy 500A. Wondering were to mount things, how to run wires, etc.

Thanks! I have a 2018 View 24D.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by DavidM

I would just install a Renogy (<$100) or a Victron ($130) battery monitor and it does it all for you.

Anyone who is trying to manage their DC amp load should install a battery monitor.

Yes. When I read that post I wondered exactly the same thing. Why not just use a Battery Monitor.

We had one installed when we upgraded to Lithium and it tells me pretty much everything I need to know about how much power is being used and how much solar I am getting.

[SeeTheUSA]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Yes. When I read that post I wondered exactly the same thing. Why not just use a Battery Monitor.

.... snipped .....

Bill explained why he did what he did with the Fluke. His work to define the Norcold DC beast, which was new to the View/Navion product. was thorough and enlightening. A battery monitor would not have revealed what he documented.

[Hammerhead]

I could not agree with you more.
I spent the first year of my 2018 View's warranty attempting to come up with a work around so I could continue to Boondock as in the past with my previous RV. In the end after adding an additional solar panel (3 total), upgrading the inverter to 2,000 watts and so forth at get expense at the dealer, I found a PROFESSIONAL RV service center who solved my issue.
We replaced the idiotic compressor refrigerator with a typical 3-way refrigerator that now runs on LP when in the dark, under shade, etc.
Multiple communications to Winnebago went with no reasonable explanation for promoting these RV's as "Getaway" vehicles and intentionally limiting that utility.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

We replaced the idiotic compressor refrigerator with a typical 3-way refrigerator that now runs on LP when in the dark, under shade, etc.

Personally I think the compressor fridges are a great upgrade from the old 2 way and 3 way propane fridges. We are on our 5th RV and I am happier with the compressor fridge than with any of the previous 2 way or 3 way fridges in our previous RVs.

We live in Arizona and the propane fridges were never able to cool down the interior when it was hot here, and to get even moderately cool it had to run for perhaps 12 hours. Food was constantly going bad. The compressor fridge is cold in 1-2 hours. Adding some solar to the roof has solved the problem of not enough power to continue running it and I would not want any other kind of refrigerator in any future RV.

Perhaps you could care to explain why you think the refrigerator is idiotic? That is a pretty strong word.

[Hammerhead]

That's simple, if you predominately camp out in the sun in high exterior temperatures, your compressor refrigerator is an improvement.
However, the limitations on the utility of the rig when enjoying a shaded campsite or cloudy weather with no hookups in most areas of the country, seems to be an unreasonable sacrifice.

[DavidM]

AJMike:

You live in a part of the country where compressor fridges make sense: high summer heat and many boondocking camp sites you go to are not shaded. The extra capacity of the compressor fridge lets it handle the heat better and the lack of shade means you can compensate for the extra DC required with solar.

That is not the case for some, maybe most of us who boondock. I live in the NE and only go camping where the weather is right- cool enough to not need A/C but warm enough to be comfortable. My full timing RV friend moves north and south to stay in that comfortable zone. For me and him a propane absorption fridge works fine. Yes it takes a long time to cool down, typically overnight but after that it keeps cool food cold and frozen food frozen.

And it does not require a lot of power to operate- less than 5 amp hours daily for controls, lighting and the propane solenoid and not much propane either.

And finally where we camp is always shady. Solar will do no good.

So consider the situation when criticizing absorption fridges. They work quite well for many of us.

David

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

Multiple communications to Winnebago went with no reasonable explanation for promoting these RV's as "Getaway" vehicles and intentionally limiting that utility.

It all depends on your personal definition of a “Getaway”. It clearly doesn’t apply to every single possible type of getaway that anyone can think of.

For the cost of replacing the fridge it’s likely you could have solved your boondocking power issues and found even more versatility with the RV.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

That's simple, if you predominately camp out in the sun in high exterior temperatures, your compressor refrigerator is an improvement.
However, the limitations on the utility of the rig when enjoying a shaded campsite or cloudy weather with no hookups in most areas of the country, seems to be an unreasonable sacrifice.

So perhaps it should be a user option.

The point of my comment is that the use of a compressor refrigerator in an RV is not idiotic, which is the term you used. It is a very good choice under some circumstances, not so good under other circumstances. Sort of like a lot of the equipment in an RV - works for some, not for others.

[DavidM]

The RV manufacturers started installing compressor fridges or in some cases, residential fridges in the upper and lower segments of the motorhome market.

Seems like they were always installed on Class Bs due to space and venting requirements- compressor fridges don't require outside vents like absorption fridges do. Then they started being installed on Class Cs probably for cost reasons as much as anything. Bigger Class As got residential fridges because they almost always camp with power hookups.

But there is a middle segment, mostly Class Cs but also short Class As like the Thor Axis/Vegas which are sometimes advertised as recreational utility vehicles (code for boondocking capable?), some of which use absorption fridges. I don't know of any builder who offers the choice. In many cases it would be difficult to offer an absorption fridge or retrofit one due to venting requirements.

David

[DavidM]

When I was looking at a new or newish Class C or short Class A several months ago the question of type of fridge was foremost in my mind. I had used compressor fridges on boats so I knew their advantages and limitations. I also had positive experiences with my last two T/Ts with absorption fridges.

I preferred an absorption fridge, but I could have lived with a compressor fridge. With a compressor fridge I would have upgraded the batteries to at least to two 100 Ah LiPO batteries, upgraded the converter to a bigger PD 9180AL and changed out the Precision Circuits BIM to a lithium model (one that turns off and on to keep from overtaxing the chassis alternator). I would have added solar, but would have done that with the absorption fridge as well.

The total price for parts for these changes was about $2,000 so it wouldn't have been a deal killer.

I did chose the Thor Axis, more for its layout and new gas engine than anything else.

David

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by DavidM

I did chose the Thor Axis, more for its layout and new gas engine than anything else.

The Thor Vegas/Axis was our second choice when we went looking for a new RV 2 years ago, so I am interested in knowing your experiences with it. In many ways it is the equivalent Thor product to our Winnebago Fuse, but the model we saw came with a wall slide, a gas engine and no solar. I would be interested in knowing how it has worked, how the build quality is and whether or not you are satisfied with it.

[DavidM]

Mike:

I will definitely post my experiences with the new Axis after I have spent a few months with it, now scheduled for a March delivery. But I will post them on the Thor sister forum, but I will send you a PM when I first post.

The build quality was my big bugaboo, having watched Thor destroy my former TT builder, Camp Lite by cheapening it, piece by piece. But after reading a dozen or more first time buyer reports, this is what I concluded:

The initial design and component selection is what counts and more expensive coaches design and specify better stuff, but you pay for it. But I don't know if they build any better. There are no craftsmen worthy of the name in the RV industry. 90% of the complaints I read about were stuff that I could fix myself in a couple of hours and sure wouldn't bother taking it back to the dealer to have fixed.

I am happy enough with the stuff Thor installs and figure after I get through the PDI, I can fix most stuff that turns up later myself.

David

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by DavidM

Seems like they were always installed on Class Bs due to space and venting requirements- compressor fridges don't require outside vents like absorption fridges do.

I'm sure space, cost and intended use all fit in. I noticed the Winnie Drop and Hike lines are the last towables to retain the absorption fridge. They are the smallest line, but they are marketed more to people dry camping. It seems in this case, intended use (or market segment) trumped space.

There are definitely pluses and minuses for both types of fridges, especially based on your own use and climate. It would be nice if dealers payed more attention to outfitting their RV's for the local climate and market, and informed their buyers of the advantages and disadvantages of various features. Of course, this applies mostly to buying "off the lot". When ordering from the factory, the salesman doesn't have to worry about you walking away over the "wrong fridge".