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Old 12-16-2020, 01:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by AJMike View Post
I have no idea where your figure came from. I converted to Lithium, added 200 watts of solar (for a total of 400 watts) and a DC-DC charger and the total cost came to about $3200-$3300, including the install labor and all parts.
I also needed to replace the FLAT batteries with lithium phosphate ones at a cost or $3200 and I did pay to have the Precision Circuits lithium BIM installed by the dealer. I am also upgrading the Zamp PWM charge controller. The quotes I have gotten from solar installers starts at $5,000 and they are booked up until sometime in April of 2021 which goes to show that a great many people feel the need to upgrade the factory installation.

Neither Winnebago or their dealers, and this includes the widely watched youtube video posted by Lichtsinn, say that the 200 Watts of solar are barely enough on summer days to keep the fridge running. The video by Lichtsinn is particularly egregious in that anyone watching it would think that the fridge temps can be maintained indefinitely which is completely false.

My last RV was sold 5 years ago and it had a 3-way fridge powered by the propane most of the time. I have no first hand experience with a compressor fridge or its demand and if you look on the internet at videos on the Navion in particular there is no mention by the dealers' sales people that the solar is going to need to be upgraded unless you like listening to a generator run for several hours to recharge the house batteries.

I think it is unfortunate that people take getting misled by Winnebago and its dealers as "normal" and something that should be expected. It may be part of the reason for so many couples buying a new RV and then dumping it after a couple of years. When an RV costs more than many houses there is the expectation that one is getting a finished product that is ready for use.

The problem is compounded by the Zamp setup that Winnebago installs that uses 2 of the 3 ports on the roof cap and with the locations where the two 100W panels are placed that makes it more difficult and more restrictive and more expensive for owners to add more panels.

I knew the sorry state of solar installations by RV manufacturers in 2015 but I expected that 5 years later thing would have improved. Instead the end product is worse than what my neighbor got with his 1992 Class A coach.

What is quite different with an RV purchase is that most people are having to go a long distance to get their new RV and have little time to check it out thoroughly or see how well everything works but must rely on the videos posted on youtube by dealers and a few owners. The reason for my post is that others should be aware of the deficiencies of the Zamp solar setup and appreciate in advance how much time and money it will take to fix them.

When one has to drive hundreds of miles to get an appointment in April of 2021 at the earliest, it would definitely affect the decision to buy a new RV instead of a used RV that did not have these problems or they had been corrected by a prior owner. A 2019 Navion with the 3-way fridge is quite different than the 2021 with the compressor fridge and the induction cooktop in terms of battery and solar requirements for camping without shore power.

Actually a good part of the reason for buying a new Class C was to get the new for 2019 Sprinter cab chassis which meant a 2020 or 2021 model year RV. That is something that is also obscured as most people would not be aware that they chassis is a model year back from the model year for the RV and with the changes taking place that can make a good deal of difference in performance and safety features and reliability. A dealer was interested in selling us a 2020 LTV Wonder with the Ford diesel engine but he did not disclose that this engine was discontinued by Ford in 2019. It took some research for me to learn of his deception and cancel the purchase. At this point I would sooner trust a used car salesman or a politician than an RV dealer.
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Old 12-16-2020, 02:33 PM   #22
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We have 480W of solar plus two 125Ah lithium batteries in our 21VD with the compressor fridge.

Our auto transfer switch started failing when connected to shore power during our last trip - and we ended up running off batteries & solar for two days (until we could get a replacement ATS installed).

With the fridge and running electric heat overnight, we used about 50% of the batteries. Our solar panels didn't fully recharge the batteries, which was surprising in full sun.

Fortunately, the ATS would allow us to use our diesel generator, and were able to fully charge the batteries each day after running the generator for 1-2 hours (which we did mostly while driving).

We're going to have Lichtsinn check our solar/charging system during our spring maintenance - with full sun, we expected to have the batteries full charged during the day - which didn't happen...
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Old 12-16-2020, 02:55 PM   #23
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My last RV was sold 5 years ago and it had a 3-way fridge powered by the propane most of the time. I have no first hand experience with a compressor fridge or its demand and if you look on the internet at videos on the Navion in particular there is no mention by the dealers' sales people that the solar is going to need to be upgraded unless you like listening to a generator run for several hours to recharge the house batteries.
I believe that most people use RV parks rather than dry camping or boondocking, and so barely need solar at all. When they are hooked up to shore power they are charging their batteries and when they are driving to new locations they are also charging their batteries. It is only those of us who dry camp a lot that have an issue with the compressor fridges and solar power. The majority of RV users probably only need to run their generators to make sure they don't freeze up from non-use. Certainly that was my experience before we got the Fuse and started to dry camp a lot.

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The problem is compounded by the Zamp setup that Winnebago installs that uses 2 of the 3 ports on the roof cap and with the locations where the two 100W panels are placed that makes it more difficult and more restrictive and more expensive for owners to add more panels.
Personally I had no problems at all in adding 2 more solar panels to the roof of our Fuse. The 3rd panel sat next to the rear factory panel and did not hinder getting around on the roof or working on any of the roof-top appliances like the A/C. The 4th panel takes up space toward the rear but still allows access to the A/C and fan and thus causes no issues when repair is needed.

When and if I upgrade further I will just replace the existing 100 watt panels with larger 170 or 200 watt panels, and they should take up even less roof space than the 4 100 watt panels now take up.

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That is something that is also obscured as most people would not be aware that they chassis is a model year back from the model year for the RV
May be a year back from the model year for the RV, depending on when you buy the RV. Our 2018 Fuse has a 2018 chassis, but I do agree that buyers should be told if there is a year difference on their RV.
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Old 12-16-2020, 04:47 PM   #24
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In short, a bad design from the factory. They clearly know very little about designing solar powered systems. 200 Watts is okay for a gas/electric fridge system, not an electric only fridge. 400 Watts is barely enough for a 75 Watt compressor plus a few LED lights. You don't always get 100% sunshine directly overhead while RVing.
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Old 12-16-2020, 04:57 PM   #25
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Elkman, Suggest you buy a Kill-a-Watt device from Harbor freight, plug the refer into it and measure your fridge's electrical consumption over a week or so. I did when I replaced my Norcold 14 cu ft absorption fridge with a 19 cu ft Fisher Paykel compressor fridge. I measured about 40watts (120 VAC) per hour. A 100 watt solar panel will put out about 5 amps per hour, for about 5 hours per day. Your Navion stuff runs off the batteries, not the solar panels as they act only as a trickle charger. Invest in lithium batteries as they will charge much faster via generator or solar. With flooded lead acid batteries, your battery compartment must be vented to the outside due to hydrogen gas given off during charging, Not so with lithium. Good luck!
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Old 12-16-2020, 05:04 PM   #26
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Hi,


Change to SiO2 batteries. Upgrade solar to 400 watts. Do test the fridge with a kill-a-watt meter for 24 hours. That may yield the number of watts used in the time frame. Divide by 5 to get adequate panel wattage for just the fridge. Surf to this web site for more detailed information https://freecampsites.net/adding-solar/
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Old 12-16-2020, 05:29 PM   #27
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My wife and I were in the sales office of a major Winnebago dealer in Northern California and sitting at the sales desk with paperwork for a purchase sitting in front of us. The salesman handed me a pen. All we had to do is sign on the dotted line. I had just gone around and around with the salesman about the electric fridge, which, he assured us was designed for RVs and fine for boondocking without having to use the generator constantly. My instincts and a basic knowledge of physics were telling me to call “bullpucky” on his claims, so we walked. And now I am so glad we did. We subsequently bought a 2008 Navion in prime condition for just a bit less than the new model we nearly bought, and , of course, with an absorption Norcold 3-way and a propane Onan. Two years later, we couldn’t be happier. The leveling is a minor deal most of the time and the fridge is colder than my regular home fridge we use every day. The laws of physics can’t be rescinded even in the age of lithium ion batteries.
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Old 12-16-2020, 05:54 PM   #28
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Why not just run the generator

I have an honest question here, so don’t jump on me. We had an older class a that we just sold. No fancy batteries or solar. If we were unconnected, we just ran the generator for a while each day. We needed to anyway for the espresso machine and microwave. It wasn't a big deal.

We have a View on order. I know these new refrigerators draw more power, and we will need to run the generator for a while each day. But is it for a long time or something? Maybe the batteries won’t even last overnight? I’m not fully understanding the basic issue . It doesn’t seem like a big deal.

Got me worried here.
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Old 12-16-2020, 06:39 PM   #29
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I's pretty common for people to run their generator a couple hours a day. But, it depends where you camp. Some places limit generator hours, or don't allow generator use at all. In some NP's, some of the best sites are "no generator". Other campgrounds are really tight, so your generator might be 10 or 15 feet from your neighbor's picnic table and fire pit. In that case, a camper who runs their genny for 6 or 7 hours a day or allows it to auto start at 3am might find themselves wondering why their generator doesn't work anymore...
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Old 12-17-2020, 02:37 AM   #30
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Winnebago sales should have done a better job of helping this guy make the right choices. I’m betting the limited capacity of the solar panels was oversold or simply not brought up by sales.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:02 AM   #31
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RVing is all about compromising on something.

The thing that disappointed me the most in my experience buying my Winnebago is the more or less crooked information provided by my dealer. My salesperson was really terrible but I have to admit that all salespeople seem to be.

I believe that in order to protect its brand image, Winnebago would do well to publish a brochure explaining the pros and cons of the various options. I wouldn't be worried about displaying the limitations of certain characteristics of my products because I believe Winnebago, despite a few flaws, still remain at the top of the market anyway.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:07 AM   #32
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is it for a long time or something? Maybe the batteries won’t even last overnight?
Like a lot of things... it depends.

If you go to bed at night with your batteries pretty depleted then you could have issues just making it through the night. If you go to bed at night nearly fully topped up you shouldn't have any problems.

It also depends on the temps you're camping in. If it's 80 degrees at night like it is in south Texas in the summer it should be obvious that the fridge will have to work harder. AKA run the compressor more.

Of course, most of us don't want to dry camp/boondock in 100 degree temps either, so maybe that's not very likely.

As to how long you'll need to run the generator... that too depends on your battery's state of charge. When it's 50% depleted it will obviously need more generator run time then when it's 80% full.

Regardless of what others have said here, 200w of standard solar through a PWM solar controller is not nothing and is pretty generous compared to what you find standard on other small Class C motorhomes. It will not work miracles to recharge a depleted battery bank in 4-hours of sunlight. But it will help all day long... though again that depends on where you camp and how much sun is hitting the panels. Many choose a shady spot to dry camp. But obviously this isn't helping shorten your generator times.

Most things in RVing (heck, in life, too) are not cut and dried. Performance depends on many variables. And, in this experience will be your best teacher.

I do think this thread points out the limitations of this RV, and all others with compressor fridges, for multi-day dry camping without major power upgrades.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:32 AM   #33
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I believe that in order to protect its brand image, Winnebago would do well to publish a brochure explaining the pros and cons of the various options.
It's a fine suggestion, but can you name one other manufacturer that does this?

Perhaps you are expecting something that no RV manufacturer - in the history of RVing - has ever done???? The "Pros" sure but the "Cons" not so much.

It would be great if dealers and especially sales people had real product knowledge and operated in the best interest of the buyers. But I think most dealers are looking for something else from their sales people. If one of them told customers that the RV they wanted wouldn't really work for them I don't think they'd be employed very long.

There certainly is a knowledge/information gap and it starts at the manufacturer and extends to the dealer and yes, it extends all the way to the buyer that purchases an RV that's wrong for them for all the wrong reasons.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:37 AM   #34
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Here's something we say about NEW RV owners that really is proven true over and over and over again.

You can't know what you don't know until you know it.


When RV shopping it's virtually impossible to figure out the implications of every major decision made by the manufacturer until you've:

1. Lived with the product a while
2. Used it in many varied situations
3. Figured out what it is you really need and want from the product

This is why everyone also says a first RV is just a learning tool and not a long-term purchase.
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Old 12-17-2020, 10:49 AM   #35
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What we need is the Consumer Reports of RVs- independent, unbiased and objective reviews of products and systems. You don't have to discuss the issue of DC usage with a compressor fridge in the context of Winnebagos or any brand. Just do an article that examines the pros and cons generically.

Will Prowse in his Yutube reviews of batteries, solar controllers and the like comes as close as anyone, but I doubt that he has any interest in tackling compressor fridges. Wish he would.

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Old 12-17-2020, 11:02 AM   #36
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James of the Fit RV does this on YouTube for a great many RV systems. The limitation with James (he's a NASA Scientist, RVer and Road Biker) is he and his wife Steph are committed to mostly Class B Vans and smaller Class Cs.

They've just gone through the selection process to replace their Winnebago Travato with a multi-video selection criteria. Also, they are sponsored by Winnebago and have had long term loans of a couple of the Winnebago Class Bs.

They have decided to replace their Travato with a new EKKO and will no doubt be one of the first to receive it.

By the way, in an older video series James replaced his Travato's RV Fridge with a compressor fridge, added auto levelers, lithium batteries and various different solar installs.

So, if you don't know The Fit RV on YouTube check them out.

Here's a video from last week comparing WBGO's two Lithium Batter Options:

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Old 12-17-2020, 11:05 AM   #37
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We get it

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Here's a major flaw in that logic - 90% of RVers don't care about dry camping or boondocking. You do, so it was incumbent upon you and no one else to buy the RV that met your needs.

For those that don't have that need the industry is providing the product that people want and that is compressor fridges rather than gas absorption refrigerators.

I'll go further and suggest that 60% of RVers don't recognize the term or idea behind "boondocking." It's popular on RV Forums and YouTube Channels. But the vast majority of RVers don't read RV Forums or watch YouTube Channels.

Agree with all your posts. For lack of a better way to put it, I think older folks understand this and have dealt with it throughout their lives. I've tried to communicate these things to my kids and grand kids....but guess who sells their old cars and goes with them to dealerships?
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Old 12-17-2020, 11:09 AM   #38
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I guess I could agree with you if RV builders offered a boondocker's package and called it that. It would consist of at least 200 Ahs of lithium batteries, 400 watts of solar panels, an upgraded converter to handle lithium batteries and charge them faster and some way of limiting alternator current to the lithium batteries if necessary.

It would probably cost close to $10,000. That would get a potential boondocker buyer's attention. He could factor that cost against the advantages of a compressor fridge and make a better informed decision.

I figured a much cheaper DIY version into my buying decision. It was about $3,000.

David



....Or do your own research and possible pocket that $10,000.00. David, even in a perfect world things are interpreted differently. To get the thing exactly how you want it you should order it that way or add to it yourself.
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Old 12-17-2020, 11:17 AM   #39
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There is the RV Consumer Group - I used their guide years ago when shopping for a truck camper - seemed worthwhile back then but I think they've raised their prices considerably. rv.org is their website.
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Old 12-17-2020, 12:04 PM   #40
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Have a 2019 Navion J. It has the compressor fridge and had the 2 napa batteries.
After 1 1/2 years the batteries were getting tired too quickly. Was going with the Battleborn lithium and then looked into the Lithionics 125 AH. Installed 2 with a 2000 w inverter/charger and added 1 - 110 watt sunpower solar panel to the 2 existing

I left the compressor fridge on in my driveway this summer, set the freezer @ 20 deg and after 5 days of mostly sunny skies the batteries were at about 45% charged.
Plugged the shore line in and the went back out after 2 hours and the batteries were @ 100%.

I bought the RV anticipating being able to use shore power, but as my needs changed, I made the adjustments.


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