Limitations of all electric fridge and solar panels

[Elkman]

My 2021 Navion has the electric only fridge and two 100 Watt solar panels from the factory. This week I have the house and chassis batteries at 100% SOC and turned on the fridge and set the freezer at a setting that provided +10 degrees temperture and the fridge at a setting that resulted in +40 degrees. After two full days of operation the house and the chassis batteries were at 50% SOC and I ran the generator for an hour to bring them up to 80%.

After 2 days the discharge was enough to start to damage the coach FLAT batteries and the solar panels were not keeping up with power consumption by the Norcold. With 200 Watts of solar fed through a PWM charge controller the batteries were drainging quickly.

With the Norcold electric only fridge the Onan generator becomes a must have addition. It also reinforced my thinking that 200 Watts from solar was not nearly enough for the RV. Switching to lithium phosate batteries and adding 300 Watts of solar production is necessary if I do not want to be running the generator every day with the Navion.

The panel additions mean removing the Zamp junk and installing new and the lithium batteries will involve fixing the battery compartment which is currently open to the air and the road. Mickey Mouse is alive and well and working in product management at Winnebago.

[Morich]

These are called "recreational vehicles" rather than "home on wheels" for a reason. There are often only two ways to go to the woods. Take your home and build it there or accept the life style changes it requires.
You seem to be caught in some area near wanting to have your cake and eat it , too.

[Coffie Drink]

Welcome to the world of RVs. WGO has an expensive option for Li batteries and , diesel gen. My View has the 3way Norcold that running on a small amount of Propane would have worked for you.
WGO could bring the 3 way back, quiet works well but smaller box. The new Views are quite nice, 12 Vdc cools faster, no need for keeping level. I would expect many are happy as they plug in.

[DavidM]

Your experience is about what I would expect for a compressor fridge. You probably need at least double, 400 watts, to keep up and either double the lead acid capacity or switch to lithium’s to keep up through cloudy days.

And BTW when the display showed 80% full you were probably closer to 50%. You were mislead by the surface charge. A shunt based battery monitor or hydrometer readings is the only accurate way to measure SOC.

Compressor fridges have some advantages, but they don’t work well when boondocking due to their high power consumption.

David

[creativepart]

As others have said, if you want to use your RV in a specific way then you should do the in-depth research needed to understand what is needed to allow you to do that. And then be prepared to either buy only an RV that is designed to meet those needs or be prepared to modify your RV for your specific needs.

Buying an RV that doesn’t meet your needs is not Winnebago’s fault. They designed an RV for the way a majority of their customers use the RV. If it doesn’t suit your needs then don’t buy it. If you’ve already bought one then modify it to make it fit your needs or sell it and find one that that does so in stock form.

It’s really that simple.

[DavidM]

I think you are making excuses for the RV industry.

Is there a piece of paper anywhere published by Winnebago or any RV builder that talks about the high DC consumption of a compressor fridge? No, they talk about the virtues of them but not the draw backs.

Do the salesmen know about the high current draw of a compressor fridge? If they do, they are not saying.

I came from a boating/cruising background where compressor fridges are all we had and I knew about high DC consumption. When I started looking for a new MH several months ago, I could never get a straight answer about how much power they draw. Most RV brochures don't even tell you the manufacturer and model number so you can look up the DC consumptions from the manufacturer. Some don't even say whether it is a compressor or an absorption fridge.

So don't blame this on the consumer. The RV industry doesn't make it easy to understand the implications of using a compressor fridge.

I ended up buying a MH with an absorption fridge. I did the research you suggest because we are dry campers, but 90% of RVers, particularly new RVers can't or won't. The industry should help them understand the limitations.

David

[creativepart]

David, I don't think it's the duty of any company selling a product to spell out the minuses in their product designs for all manner of uses. Companies extol the virtues of their products not some limitations that may impact a small number of buyers.

And, should a dealer be aware of boondocking limitations? I'm sure they should. But dealers don't care if you buy the wrong RV they only care that you buy the RV they have on their lot right now. It may not be comforting but that's the real world.

And this same thing applies to every product sold.

Only the customer knows the specific needs they have for a product. It is not up to the manufacturer to guess what those needs may be and make the effort to detail all the possible ways their product might not fit the needs of every individual potential purchaser.

It's buyer beware for a reason - that responsibility does not lie with the manufacturer.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by DavidM

I ended up buying a MH with an absorption fridge. I did the research you suggest because we are dry campers, but 90% of RVers, particularly new RVers can't or won't. The industry should help them understand the limitations.

Here's a major flaw in that logic - 90% of RVers don't care about dry camping or boondocking. You do, so it was incumbent upon you and no one else to buy the RV that met your needs.

For those that don't have that need the industry is providing the product that people want and that is compressor fridges rather than gas absorption refrigerators.

I'll go further and suggest that 60% of RVers don't recognize the term or idea behind "boondocking." It's popular on RV Forums and YouTube Channels. But the vast majority of RVers don't read RV Forums or watch YouTube Channels.

[DavidM]

I guess I could agree with you if RV builders offered a boondocker's package and called it that. It would consist of at least 200 Ahs of lithium batteries, 400 watts of solar panels, an upgraded converter to handle lithium batteries and charge them faster and some way of limiting alternator current to the lithium batteries if necessary.

It would probably cost close to $10,000. That would get a potential boondocker buyer's attention. He could factor that cost against the advantages of a compressor fridge and make a better informed decision.

I figured a much cheaper DIY version into my buying decision. It was about $3,000.

David

[Elkman]

Originally Posted by Morich

These are called "recreational vehicles" rather than "home on wheels" for a reason. There are often only two ways to go to the woods. Take your home and build it there or accept the life style changes it requires.
You seem to be caught in some area near wanting to have your cake and eat it , too.

What a dumb thing to say. Does your RV have a fridge or do you only eat in restaurants or do you stay in RV parks all the time to have 110VAC power?

My problem is with the decision by someone at Winnebago to replace the 3-way fridge used on the 2019 and earlier Navion motorhomes with a DC only one. Wanting to have a fridge to keep food cold is not something anyone would consider a luxury item. Even on my sailboat I have a built-in ice chest. My prior RV cost me a tenth of what I paid for the Navion but it came with a 3-way fridge that could run for weeks on 5 lbs of propane and I had no need for a generator while spending weeks dry camping.

On my last RV I added two 100W panels and a MPPT charge controller and a second house battery and this was more than enough to keep the batteries fully charged 12 months out of the year and to support the electronics for the fridge and furnace and the TV and the lights and our laptops and a 4G amplifier. I used the space for a generator for additional storage.

Someone at Winnebago thought that the fix for the lack of a fridge that could operate using propane was to put on a cheap Zamp solar kit that produces in theory 10 amps of charging while the sun shines. That works if the sun shines 24 hours a day which is not going to be the case anywhere in the continental USA.

Bottom line - it was a bad decison by the people at Winnebago to switch to a DC only fridge that means running the generator to keep the batteries adequately charged. These small motorhomes have only a two battery bank to start with and so it takes only one high demand item like the fridge that runs 24 x 7 to cause a problem.

If I had it to do over again I would not have bought the Navion with its deficiencies which are costing me a good deal of time and money to correct. At this point I have replaced the house batteries with lithium phosate ones and I have purchased much of what I need to upgrade the cheap Zamp solar kit setup and add two more panels.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Elkman

Bottom line - it was a bad decison by the people at Winnebago to switch to a DC only fridge.

For you specifically. Yes.

Originally Posted by Elkman

do you stay in RV parks all the time to have 110VAC power?

The majority of RVers stay in RV parks and campgrounds with shore power most of the time.

Originally Posted by Elkman

If I had it to do over again I would not have bought the Navion

This says it all. There is no one else to point a finger at and complain about.

I know you think that everyone uses their RV the way you do, but the reality is only a small minority do so. The evolution of the marketplace from the RV Fridge to the Compressor Fridge is industry wide. And it has occurred because the majority of buyers wanted a change to take place.

The Navion/View is one of the largest selling Sprinter-based Class C's in the world. Somebody seems to like them.

[DavidM]

Originally Posted by Elkman

At this point I have replaced the house batteries with lithium phosate ones and I have purchased much of what I need to upgrade the cheap Zamp solar kit setup and add two more panels.

You are getting close to having the DC storage and charging capability to deal with your compressor fridge.

Do you camp in shaded sites? If so you will need more than solar to stay beyond 2-3 nights. Consider upgrading your converter to a Lithium specific one and a larger charging capacity. The Progressive Dynamics 9180AL is designed specifically for lithium batteries and will have 50% more charging capacity than your existing one. This will limit the inevitable generator run time required in shaded sites.

Another thing to consider is the load that lithium batteries can put on your chassis alternator. I understand the Mercedes chassis alternator can only handle 40 amps extra continuously. I bet your lithium batteries will pull more than that.

There are a couple of solutions. If you have the Precision Circuits BIM, replace it with their lithium version. It supposedly cycles the chassis alternator on and off to limit power. A better solution is to replace the existing BIM with a Victron, Renogy or Redarc DC to DC charger. Some of these can duplicate the functionality of the existing BIM and have a provision to hook up your battery boost switch to duplicate that capability.

The foregoing two paragraphs is admittedly a stretch as I am not real sure of my facts. When I take delivery of my new MH in a few months I will do some poking around to confirm some of this.

David

[Old Navy]

Originally Posted by creativepart

The majority of RVers stay in RV parks and campgrounds with shore power most of the time.

Not really the case here in SoCal, but the dealers here rarely tell you how ill equipped the RV they are selling you is for typical camping in this area. I assume they are worried about losing sales. The last thing they want to do is introduce complexity or doubt. It's certainly incumbent on the buyer to study up on such a large purchase. Unfortunately, most buyers don't know what they don't know. Some will wake up the first morning in their RV to a dead battery and spoiling food in the fridge, even though the battery indicator LEDs said they had 80% capacity when they turned on the heater and went to bed. Those who did their due diligence will already have added battery capacity, a generator and solar to support dry camping/boondocking.

[DavidM]

Originally Posted by Old Navy

Not really the case here in SoCal, but the dealers here rarely tell you how ill equipped the RV they are selling you is for typical camping in this area. I assume they are worried about losing sales. The last thing they want to do is introduce complexity or doubt. It's certainly incumbent on the buyer to study up on such a large purchase. Unfortunately, most buyers don't know what they don't know. Some will wake up the first morning in their RV to a dead battery and spoiling food in the fridge, even though the battery indicator LEDs said they had 80% capacity when they turned on the heater and went to bed. Those who did their due diligence will already have added battery capacity, a generator and solar to support dry camping/boondocking.

Hear, hear!!!!

David

[Kayak73]

Wow, this discussion does happen often now. Many of us were prior owners of an older View, went to a DP and came back to the View. Most of us know the industry followed customer demands for the compressor refrigerators.

What you have to face to boondock or dry camp with a new View is a few changes which will cost some dollars. Lithium batteries, better solar install and just face it - use the generator. It is there for a reason, you paid for it. The issue is noise for most campers who boondock, you and your neighbors are looking for quiet.

With two lithium batteries and the appropriate charger your generator time will be very short each day and acceptable to most. Just get it done and be happy.

[Wyatt]

Some passionate posts here...

I’m tending to lean on the side of be informed of what you need and then purchase whatever meets those needs. The dealer didn’t need to tell me that the refrigerator would use more power—I did my research and knew that.
I’ve rented many units with absorption fridges before and I hated them. Never cold enough, small capacity, had to be more level, etc,
I for one, (or apparently many), was thrilled at the larger size and convenience of the compressor fridge so that was an upsell to me, like it is for so many people.
I spent thousands of dollars upgrading my RV to get it to where I want it to be. That’s just part of what you do when you buy an RV.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by DavidM

It would probably cost close to $10,000. That would get a potential boondocker buyer's attention. He could factor that cost against the advantages of a compressor fridge and make a better informed decision.

I have no idea where your figure came from. I converted to Lithium, added 200 watts of solar (for a total of 400 watts) and a DC-DC charger and the total cost came to about $3200-$3300, including the install labor and all parts.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Elkman

With the Norcold electric only fridge the Onan generator becomes a must have addition. It also reinforced my thinking that 200 Watts from solar was not nearly enough for the RV. Switching to lithium phosate batteries and adding 300 Watts of solar production is necessary if I do not want to be running the generator every day with the Navion.

The panel additions mean removing the Zamp junk and installing new and the lithium batteries will involve fixing the battery compartment which is currently open to the air and the road. Mickey Mouse is alive and well and working in product management at Winnebago.

A lot depends on where you are in the country when you are camping. Here in Arizona I could generally get along with 300 watts during the summer as that was pretty much all I needed to completely recharge the Lithium batteries in our Fuse. We also have a compressor fridge and until recently that was the major current draw. Now that we have Lithium my wife has started to use small electric appliances like a tea kettle and toaster and I have added another 100 watt panel, but that is enough to completely recharge our system during the day in the summer months. Winter is a different story as the sun is lower in the sky and we get less power during a shorter day.

As for the battery compartment, our Fuse needed no changes in the box. The Lithium batteries fit right into the existing space and I am surprised that the Navion would need to have its battery compartment modified.

[DavidM]

Originally Posted by AJMike

I have no idea where your figure came from. I converted to Lithium, added 200 watts of solar (for a total of 400 watts) and a DC-DC charger and the total cost came to about $3200-$3300, including the install labor and all parts.

Here is my parts list, prices are from Amazon, except Battle Born- Costco:

4- 100 watt panels $400
Victron 50/100 MPPT controller $200
2- Battleborn 100Ah batterries $1,500
Victron 30A DC to DC charger $300
Progressive Dynamics 9180AL converter $300
Cable, connectors, hardware $500

So total parts cost is $3,200. Builder sales price is often 3x hardware cost, particularly something as technically complex as this.

David

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by DavidM

Here is my parts list, prices are from Amazon, except Battle Born- Costco:

4- 100 watt panels $400
Victron 50/100 MPPT controller $200
2- Battleborn 100Ah batterries $1,500
Victron 30A DC to DC charger $300
Progressive Dynamics 9180AL converter $300
Cable, connectors, hardware $500

So total parts cost is $3,200. Builder sales price is often 3x hardware cost, particularly something as technically complex as this.

David

I think the 3x hardware cost is far too high for solar installations on an RV.

Installing 2 BB batteries cost me $500, including all parts and labor except the batteries themselves.

Installing a single 100 watt panel cost me about $150 and would have been less per panel had I had more.

Estimate for replacing my solar controller was about $150 labor and installation of the upgraded PD converter was about $300.

I would be amazed if all of what you specified came to more than about $4500 in total, parts and labor.

The Winnebago Lithium upgrade costs only about $5000 including all parts and labor, so $10,000 seems way too high of an estimate.