9 out of 16 LED lightbulbs failed in 2015 38Q

[PSOUZA]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

about other sources. Camping World is never a first choice in my opinion and with all the trouble folks are having with ITC I am wondering if they will finally fix their problem. But a closer look has to be taken at the age of the units that are failing. I am only guessing that these are, at most, a couple of years old if they are OEM.


We need some observations about the world the LEDs are functioning in. For example, my coach is in use full-time. We have used LED's for about a year and a half. We average about 8 to 9 hours a day as a guess. In winter and when we are in the coach all day the lights could be on from 7 AM to 8 PM with no problem.

Last night I ordered a pair of the ITC lamps both for spare and for test purposes. I hope to receive at least one of the defective solder units. I have my opinions about what actually happened there. I intend to run some stress testing suites on one unit to see what falls out.

I am absolutely certain that "materials science" was never a concern on any of the lighting systems, by any of the manufacturers, and so long term changes in the properties of the basic components is assured.

High temperature and temperature cycling over extended time changes the basic structure of many of the things we tend to think of as permanent. Especially the organics. Simple things like rivets, for example will tend to loosen, and if used as an electrical termination, will fail. I have many interesting stories about troubleshooting 20 to 30 year old test equipment where materials science was taken very seriously.

Your idea of tracking failure over time, by conditions is interesting. And ambitious. If cooperation is forthcoming, may prove very useful.

My seat of the pants instincts say that current LED tech will give us short term benefits with a long term prospect of more trouble than it was worth. As the technology matures, as it is doing in the AC lighting industry, things will improve. Especially when the emitters become individually replaceable...again...as in light bulbs.

Phil

[jerichorick]

Just a not of interest. My new LED's from M4 Products are packaged in bags that rate them in DC an AC usage from 10 to 30 volts. I don't recall this wording from the original batch. Phil, your comments may have inspired some forward thinking by the M4 engineers. If so, COOL

[PSOUZA]

As I stated in post #101, I ordered two ITC 4.5 inch light fixtures for evaluation and possible use as spare parts. I also stated a hope that I would receive at least one of the "defective batch".

I relearned an old lesson. Be careful what you wish for...you just may get it.
I got lucky .

I performed a standard visual quality check of the complete assembly and deemed it good. Solder quality appeared slightly grainy but had good wetting and adhesion. It would pass any QC assurance I have participated in.

The circuit board had a liberal amount of silicone thermal transfer compound between the board and the reflector sub assembly that also serves as a thermal radiator. Should work.

I set the power supply to 13.6 volts, which is a nominal amount for a device rated at 12 volts. I made a number of voltage measurements to get a feel for current dissipation thru the resistors and across the LED's.

One current limiting resistor feeds three LED's in series. Each LED has 3 volts across it and the 43 ohm resistor drops about 3.6 volts. There are a total of seven of these networks that make up the lamp board. You will note that the numbers don't add up exactly because I have average many separate readings of each device and they are all individuals.

I ran the lamp, lens down, for two hours, at the rated voltage, and then removed the lens and measured the temperature of each component with an infrared remote reading thermometer. The highest temperature on the board was 196 * F. Not too bad.

I then touched the circuit board with back of one finger to get a 'feel' for how hot things were....and pushed two LED's to the side, off their pads and extinguished two of the seven networks. The solder seems to have melted at way below any reasonable temperature of any commercial mix I have experience with.

So the reported fault with the units being related to the solder process is affirmed tho not exactly as reported to be related to the lead free process.
Probably another "outlaw", counterfeit product got into the system as has happened so often recently.

As to the two units I received?...I will repair them with a known correct solder formula.. and then retest. Easy to do with a hot air rework station.

Phil

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

Just a note of interest. My new LED's from M4 Products are packaged in bags that rate them in DC an AC usage from 10 to 30 volts. I don't recall this wording from the original batch. Phil, your comments may have inspired some forward thinking by the M4 engineers. If so, COOL

I corrected my misspelling in my original post "not" to "note".

[PSOUZA]

Just an update and correction of previous "bad" advice.

This last episode with the lamps purchased from Amazon illustrates that there is bad product from ITC still in the pipe line and therefor being proactive and pursuing new product from any place other than ITC direct is not advisable.

Very disappointed in my attempt at re flowing / reworking the failed lamp. What ever low temperature compound was used has contaminated the pc board to the point where the proper solder compounds are repelled much like detergent will repel grease. As soon as the solder liquefies, it is pushed to the side and will not alloy with the original material. Several very active flux products are of no help. Scrap bin has some new friends.

Interesting and frustrating.

Phil

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by PSOUZA

Just an update and correction of previous "bad" advice.

This last episode with the lamps purchased from Amazon illustrates that there is bad product from ITC still in the pipe line and therefor being proactive and pursuing new product from any place other than ITC direct is not advisable.

Very disappointed in my attempt at re flowing / reworking the failed lamp. What ever low temperature compound was used has contaminated the pc board to the point where the proper solder compounds are repelled much like detergent will repel grease. As soon as the solder liquefies, it is pushed to the side and will not alloy with the original material. Several very active flux products are of no help. Scrap bin has some new friends.

Interesting and frustrating.

Phil

for the great effort. (Did you try Borax?) ITC should do a recall on their product. It is the best advertizing they could do. Shows concern for the consumer.

Rick Y

[bobmac]

Rick
ITC is not really in a position to do a recall as they do not know where the product is now. Any recall would have to be done by Winnebago based on the approximate time frame that the devices were installed. That should be relatively simple for Winnebago and the other RV manufacturers who used them, using their production records for the time frame in question. Given the severity of the problem, that would be most the most effective method. I don't think is is proper to let them fail over the next ?? time frame and leave resolution to the owners. Hopefully they will step up to the plate on this one.

[PSOUZA]

Rick

I have to agree with Bob on this one. Winnebago is the only one with the ability to do this. But since there is no safety issue, it isn't going to happen unless they deem a customer satisfaction action is needed. Then it will be on a demand by the customer basis.

Little more on the lamp and solder thing, then I think I'm done. Based on the anomalous behavior during my failed solder attempts, late last night I more fully dissembled the unit and found that what I thought was a "normal" PC board, is in fact, a billet of solid aluminum. With the circuit traces applied over an insulating substrate, probably aluminum oxide. This would make a superior heat transfer mechanism. It has the benefit, during manufacture, of even heating during re-flow. The very bad side, is it makes touch up and re-work near impossible because of the same excellent heat transfer. Boo.

Phil

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by bobmac

Rick
ITC is not really in a position to do a recall as they do not know where the product is now. Any recall would have to be done by Winnebago based on the approximate time frame that the devices were installed. That should be relatively simple for Winnebago and the other RV manufacturers who used them, using their production records for the time frame in question. Given the severity of the problem, that would be most the most effective method. I don't think is is proper to let them fail over the next ?? time frame and leave resolution to the owners. Hopefully they will step up to the plate on this one.

With respect Bob, I don't agree at all. As a manufacturer, doing direct shipments of large quantities of their product, they have accurate records of where there products were distributed to and from. If to a OEM, such as Winnebago, they don't have any excuse for not advising them and setting up a recall campaign through the OEM supply distribution network. If aftermarket sales to distributors such as Amazon, once again there should be no problem getting a recall program going. If any manufacture produces a batch of defective product it is their moral responsibility to recall the defective items once the defect comes to their attention.

There is also the law of Truth in Advertizing to consider. If the product does not do what it is advertized to do this could be considered false advertizing if push came to shove. Many LED's are advertized to have a 50,000 hour life span. No consumer or consumer group, as far as I know, have challenged this claim in court against any of of LED manufactures when the products fail far sooner than that.

Happy trails and many good LED's in your rig.

Rick Y

[tbbg II]

Originally Posted by PSOUZA

Very disappointed in my attempt at re flowing / reworking the failed lamp. What ever low temperature compound was used has contaminated the pc board to the point where the proper solder compounds are repelled much like detergent will repel grease. As soon as the solder liquefies, it is pushed to the side and will not alloy with the original material. Several very active flux products are of no help. Scrap bin has some new friends.

Phil

I also tried this on some LED replacements for my Jeep's underhood light. Same results. No matter what I tried, the solder simply would not adhear. In defence of any named company, these were el-cheapo bulbs that no reputable supplier would ever brand (I hope).

[PSOUZA]

I think what we are encountering with soldering problems, is the inability to deliver heat in the correct amount to the proper place. This may be because of the super efficient heat sinking properties of the substrate. I say this because, thus far, I have not found mention of any solder paste with properties that would be incompatible with what I have been using.

I have found several links with information that relates to the solder process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRW4gBcsRkY

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9z_IegPQxaIYkw

Both sources are credible.

Phil

[SafetyPhil]

I had one fail on our 38R but it was over the bunks table. Turned out to be a bad ground.

[debbiw]

I just got off the phone with Winnebago service, the LED lights are going out in my 2016 Sunova 33c. They told me that they had a bad batch of LED lights and all the lights in my coach need to be replaced under warranty. I am finding that the finish quality control at Winnebago is non existent. I am very surprised at the poor workmanship and QC in our new coach.

[superlucky]

DebbiW
Winnebego got screwed by this supplier and they are making it right.

If you are handy, or know someone who is.....
It takes all of five minutes to swap out the assemblies.
Push up slightly on the glass and turn it counter-clockwise about 1/2 inch
Take out the three retainer screws (phillips head)
Pull the housing out (It might act like it is glued in, use a plastic knife to pry it away from the leatherette ceiling material.
Clip the two wires and strip back the insulation on the wires
Use a new crimp connector to connect the new housing to the existing wires.
Ensure that the positive wire goes to the correct lead. LED lights are polarity-sensitive.
Screw housing back into ceiling
Replace glass cover.

I have replaced 7 out of 9 in my rig. I called Winnebego and they sent me new ones. This was much easier than a service appointment with my dealer.
Good luck
Bill

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by superlucky

DebbiW
Winnebego got screwed by this supplier and they are making it right.

If you are handy, or know someone who is.....
It takes all of five minutes to swap out the assemblies.
Push up slightly on the glass and turn it counter-clockwise about 1/2 inch
Take out the three retainer screws (phillips head)
Pull the housing out (It might act like it is glued in, use a plastic knife to pry it away from the leatherette ceiling material.
Clip the two wires and strip back the insulation on the wires
Use a new crimp connector to connect the new housing to the existing wires.
Ensure that the positive wire goes to the correct lead. LED lights are polarity-sensitive.
Screw housing back into ceiling
Replace glass cover.

I have replaced 7 out of 9 in my rig. I called Winnebego and they sent me new ones. This was much easier than a service appointment with my dealer.
Good luck
Bill

Some are and some are not. Just depends on the circuitry. Your description of how to replace the lights sounds pretty close to what ours are except ours have plug in connections. I've replaced over 60 of the halogen bulbs in our rig. The old lights got so hot they melted some of the housings and into the headliner which is why I wanted to go to LED's. Still need 3 wedge base bulbs and I'm done inside, next is the bays. Even replaced the headlight bulbs with LED's.

[Bacoats]

Thanks for the info. We had all of our lights replaced at the factory in July when we were at the rally. Within weeks they started going out one by one and the ones left have dimmed. We are using battery operated lantern in the bathroom, flashlight to read panel, and another lantern in the living area. We were traveling and did not want to spend time in a repair center. Thanks to your post, I called Winnebago and requested the lights to be mailed to me. This is such an easy solution....for me, not my handy husband.

[superlucky]

I have replaced all of my lights now.
None have failed.........



Yet!


Bill

[Hikerdogs]

Slightly off topic, but since I've subscribed to this thread I get as many as 4 emails for each new post. Is anyone else encountering the same situation?

[alank]

I just replaced two LED's on my Sunstar 36Y today. The first light I took out and sent to the dealer was a 21 LED light. The light actually had 15 LED's and the other 6 LED spaces were empty. Before I could get the replacement light from the dealer, another one started going bad and I asked them to send me two lights, which they did.
Upon close examination when I removed the second light which partially worked, I noticed one LED missing and one LED hanging off sideway at it's mounting area. By the time I carried the light to the shop, the second LED had come off and was gone. I then scratched on some solder joints that looked very overheated and another LED came loose.
What's wrong is the LED's are running so hot that they are melting the solder that holds them to the circuit board. After a number of heat cycles, the solder deteriorates to the point it no longer will conduct an electric current, and/or just drops the LED off the circuit board.
I experienced this type problem first on a C5 Corvette radio which had a display that would just get dimmer over a period of time until the display just went out. On that unit you could take the circuit board out of the radio and re-solder the resistors with new solder and everything was good again for a extended period of time.
When looking at the new lights I got, I see nothing to make me think the new replacement lights are any different than the defective lights they replaced. I would totally expect new lights to fail at about the same rate as the old ones. It's the amount of current they are passing through the LED to make it bright that creates the heat to melt the solder, and the new light circuit boards are exactly like the old ones.
Until the circuit boards in the lights are changed, I think the problem will continue.
But this is just all my opinion.

[bobmac]

Buried in earlier parts of this thread, ITC have acknowledged the problems occurred in manufacturing in late 2014 so are in coaches made subsequent to that date. They had switched to a "greener" lead-free soldering process and it didn't work as expected - the failures you see are the result of that manufacturing process problem. ITC acknowledged the problem and will replace them. These fixtures have been manufactured and widely used in Winn products since 2013 as well as by most other RV manufacturers. In fact, most of the light fixtures in Winn coaches are made by ITC. I doubt there will be any issues with the replacements and I think ITC have stepped up to the problem and are as anxious as you are to get it fixed. If you have only replaced some of these fixtures, you should arrange to get them all replaced as they likely fail if from the same defective batches. Hope this helps. Good luck,