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Old 07-15-2015, 09:33 AM   #61
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I've got an oscilloscope, but as this is only affecting my interior LEDs that are all of the same type (ITC) - I don't think it's the fault of nefarious electronics...

While I wait on a "dealer" solution (warranty) - I've had to order alternate replacements. Likely a simple fix might be putting a series resistor in to slightly turn down the lighting from running at 100% capacity, but again, shouldn't be necessary...
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Old 07-15-2015, 02:23 PM   #62
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So after having limited luck with the dealer, I called ITC directly today (1-888-871-8860 Monday-Friday, 8-5 Eastern Time) - they acknowledged the problem, said they had a known "bad batch" and are shipping replacements.

The new part number is:
69240PPNS-15-3ke
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Old 07-16-2015, 10:29 AM   #63
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I've got an oscilloscope, but as this is only affecting my interior LEDs that are all of the same type (ITC) - I don't think it's the fault of nefarious electronics...

While I wait on a "dealer" solution (warranty) - I've had to order alternate replacements. Likely a simple fix might be putting a series resistor in to slightly turn down the lighting from running at 100% capacity, but again, shouldn't be necessary...
Please, help us ALL out here. Put the o-scope onto one of the light sockets and see if there is some RF noise present. My LED's are rated for 30VDC. What good would a resistor do? I need a filter, like a capacitor of the correct value, across my B+ feed to my lights. I simply don't know how to figure that out or where my feed is from. Winnebago has stopped publishing schematics of the newer coaches. The Wiring Instualtion Diagrams are useless for the most part.

Rick Y
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Old 07-16-2015, 10:36 AM   #64
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It appears to me that the manufacturer has admitted fault and is willing to fix the lights.
I have friends who converted their coaches to LEDs as many as 4 years ago and have had no issues. What makes you guys think this is anything more than just a bad batch?

My 2015 was built in February and I took delivery in early April. I have had no issues and we have stayed in it a good bit.
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Old 07-16-2015, 10:38 AM   #65
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Sorry, I'm mainly a lurker on this forum. I need to fix my signature.
I am driving a 2015 Cambria 30J, towing a Ford Explorer, with a brake buddy and tpms and live in Southern Illinois in the warm months and migrate to Titusville, TGO, Florida during the cold months.
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:16 AM   #66
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This is off topic.....but related. I love my LEDs but they are too bright. ITC makes and sells on Amazon a dimmer. But I can't see specs anywhere that tells me these are dimmable?
Amazon.com: ITC (21005-DB) 100 Watt Dimmer Switch: Automotive
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:34 AM   #67
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This is off topic.....but related. I love my LEDs but they are too bright. ITC makes and sells on Amazon a dimmer. But I can't see specs anywhere that tells me these are dimmable?
Amazon.com: ITC (21005-DB) 100 Watt Dimmer Switch: Automotive
Not all LED's are dimmable as you know and if the spec does not state they are I am guessing they are not.
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:40 AM   #68
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It appears to me that the manufacturer has admitted fault and is willing to fix the lights.
I have friends who converted their coaches to LEDs as many as 4 years ago and have had no issues. What makes you guys think this is anything more than just a bad batch?

My 2015 was built in February and I took delivery in early April. I have had no issues and we have stayed in it a good bit.
Possibly you have not had your unit long enough yet. My first LED failed after about 7 or 8 months of full-time usage. Besides, not all RV's are the same under the skin. One may have some sort of a noisy component that another rig doesn't have. Only testing with a o-scope will give a definitive answer.

Happy trails,
Rick Y
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Old 07-17-2015, 10:26 AM   #69
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Please, help us ALL out here. Put the o-scope onto one of the light sockets and see if there is some RF noise present. My LED's are rated for 30VDC. What good would a resistor do?
It'll have to wait until the unit is back home where I have the scope. Please PM to remind me. I almost guarantee there will be some level of noise.

A resistor (across the wires) creates a current divider. It's how lights are typically dimmed. You'd need to experiment with values, although if you measure the resistance of your LED inputs, I can provide a starting point... The resistor will decrease the current going to the LED, lower the light output, and lower the operating temperature.

None of this should be necessary with a properly built LED... In my case and in the OPs case, we have the same LEDs which apparently have solder issues - the head causes the SMDs to drop off the board.

Note, in terms of failure rate, we had 7 fail in the first 2 weeks of use.
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Old 07-17-2015, 09:20 PM   #70
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This thread has been interesting to me, since it involves electronics, electrical theory, and attempts at trouble shooting a “problem”, that may not be what it seems.


I believe that some here are victims of a “too narrow view” of the LED situation. It most certainly is not restricted to the RV industry, but is rampant throughout all applications that use high brightness LED's. Every city that has upgraded traffic signals, has signs that show multiple failures. Automotive aftermarket light suppliers are plagued by excessive failure rates. The expense of failures in this market makes the RV situation look trivial.


Simply put, the high intensity LED technology is not yet mature. Variations in process quality are not yet controllable to the point that a production run of devices will be uniform throughout. Since the failure mode of the devices requires time to manifest, a production procedure to cull the potentially defective units is not possible. Thus a large percentage of units will fail when run to the device's specified maximum.


Add to this, the jobbers (lamp assembly manufacturers) lack the engineering expertise to compensate for a problem that occurred further up stream. They will find a way to cope, eventually, because the fail rate is not sustainable for their bottom line.


The main point is, the lamp assembly company's are trying to push too much light from the current state of the technology.


Now, as to the observed noise seen by one poster....We need to be aware that there are basically three ways to power a light emitting diode. All must keep the junction temperature below destructive levels to prolong the life of the device. As alluded to earlier in this post, production variances make this point a variable.


In the beginning, LED's were low current (20 ma) devices that could be current limited by a small, low value resistor and the value had only slight effect on the brightness of the device. There was no advantage to be had by raising the current and so the life was very long. Today I repair equipment that has LED indicators and displays that have run continuously for over 20 years and the LED's are still strong.


Small lamp assemblies can be powered through an integrated circuit known as a constant current source. This is a very inefficient device, much as the current limiting resistor in the previous example, and generates heat that must be removed from the lamp assembly. This method has the advantage of maintaining a fixed level of brightness with applied voltage changes. This method is not used in the lamp assembly's in our RV's, and is not generally used in high brightness applications because of heat considerations.


Lastly, PWM or pulse width modulation techniques are applied to regulate the AVERAGE current through the LED. This method is the most efficient and generates little heat of its own. This is the technique used for most all high brightness, high current lighting today and is what is used in the lighting in our RV's. The switching noise byproducts are what has been observed on the oscilloscope. The noise is detrimental to RF communications and has been associated with vehicle computer / instrumentation malfunctions in some aftermarket installation of LED headlamps. The noise observed via the oscilloscope is not indicative of any longevity “problem” and the accuracy is suspect because that particular instrument has unknown input characteristics. Measuring noise at this point is to be expected because of the distance from the power source.


Ohm's law requires that the current pulses from the PWM circuitry, develop a voltage across the length of the wire supplying the current to the device. This is what has been observed and other than EMI, is of no consequence. Certainly not to other LED lamps on the same circuit.


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Old 07-18-2015, 06:01 AM   #71
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Great reply Phil! I have 10 LED spotlights in can fixtures in my kitchen. In less than 4 months 5 failed. These 5 are from 2 different manufacturers. Yes, high intensity LED lighting does seem to have its problems.
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Old 07-18-2015, 08:44 AM   #72
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This thread has been interesting to me, since it involves electronics, electrical theory, and attempts at trouble shooting a “problem”, that may not be what it seems.


I believe that some here are victims of a “too narrow view” of the LED situation. It most certainly is not restricted to the RV industry, but is rampant throughout all applications that use high brightness LED's. Every city that has upgraded traffic signals, has signs that show multiple failures. Automotive aftermarket light suppliers are plagued by excessive failure rates. The expense of failures in this market makes the RV situation look trivial.


Simply put, the high intensity LED technology is not yet mature. Variations in process quality are not yet controllable to the point that a production run of devices will be uniform throughout. Since the failure mode of the devices requires time to manifest, a production procedure to cull the potentially defective units is not possible. Thus a large percentage of units will fail when run to the device's specified maximum.


Add to this, the jobbers (lamp assembly manufacturers) lack the engineering expertise to compensate for a problem that occurred further up stream. They will find a way to cope, eventually, because the fail rate is not sustainable for their bottom line.


The main point is, the lamp assembly company's are trying to push too much light from the current state of the technology.


Now, as to the observed noise seen by one poster....We need to be aware that there are basically three ways to power a light emitting diode. All must keep the junction temperature below destructive levels to prolong the life of the device. As alluded to earlier in this post, production variances make this point a variable.


In the beginning, LED's were low current (20 ma) devices that could be current limited by a small, low value resistor and the value had only slight effect on the brightness of the device. There was no advantage to be had by raising the current and so the life was very long. Today I repair equipment that has LED indicators and displays that have run continuously for over 20 years and the LED's are still strong.


Small lamp assemblies can be powered through an integrated circuit known as a constant current source. This is a very inefficient device, much as the current limiting resistor in the previous example, and generates heat that must be removed from the lamp assembly. This method has the advantage of maintaining a fixed level of brightness with applied voltage changes. This method is not used in the lamp assembly's in our RV's, and is not generally used in high brightness applications because of heat considerations.


Lastly, PWM or pulse width modulation techniques are applied to regulate the AVERAGE current through the LED. This method is the most efficient and generates little heat of its own. This is the technique used for most all high brightness, high current lighting today and is what is used in the lighting in our RV's. The switching noise byproducts are what has been observed on the oscilloscope. The noise is detrimental to RF communications and has been associated with vehicle computer / instrumentation malfunctions in some aftermarket installation of LED headlamps. The noise observed via the oscilloscope is not indicative of any longevity “problem” and the accuracy is suspect because that particular instrument has unknown input characteristics. Measuring noise at this point is to be expected because of the distance from the power source.


Ohm's law requires that the current pulses from the PWM circuitry, develop a voltage across the length of the wire supplying the current to the device. This is what has been observed and other than EMI, is of no consequence. Certainly not to other LED lamps on the same circuit.


Phil
:welcome: and great start out the gate!

Thanks Phil for the great, well written, lesson. I posted the o-scope pictures. M4products is convinced that this is what is causing my failures.

As you have indicated, these devices are not real world tested to perfection yet. Here I have given the supplier of a high end LED a chance to compensate for one of the many reasons a LED can fail and I was sent on a "find your problem" chase.

Phil, one of the problems sighted by M4 is the fact that I am running my Magnum invert at 100% charging capability to satisfy my AGM's Some how this is supposed to be detrimental to the LED's. Can you explain how?

It is always refreshing to have a field professional in a technical discussion of this nature. Thank you for joining in.

Rick Y
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Old 07-18-2015, 11:16 AM   #73
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Phil, one of the problems sighted by M4 is the fact that I am running my Magnum invert at 100% charging capability to satisfy my AGM's Some how this is supposed to be detrimental to the LED's. Can you explain how?


Rick Y
I would like to reply to you without calling M4's competency into question.


The very good picture of the scope data shows me a signal level of approx .35 volts at roughly 200 kilohertz. This signal obviously comes from the light fixture PWM circuitry. The signal sample, I will assume, was taken right at the fixture connection to the coach wire run.


There is a long run of two wires that meander back to the battery, eventually. This length of wiring has both resistance and inductance. Lets call that impedance, since we are dealing with an high frequency current. This impedance insures that this “noise” will manifest itself quite strongly. If the fixture was connected right at the battery with very short wires, it is unlikely the same test would show any “noise” at all.


This noise that M4 believes is responsible for the failures is generated by the same device that is failing. How this relates to the coach electrical system being responsible, eludes me.


The electrical environment in a coach can be severe at times with noisy electrical supply throughout the system. Battery maintenance systems, regardless of type, can push system voltages well above 14 volts regardless of the battery technology used. These voltages may be short term or long term and contain transients much higher than 14.4 volts. This is the environment a product must be designed to thrive in. If it can't thrive here, then the weakness is in the lighting system, not the coach.


The evidence provided so far shows that overheating is responsible for some failures. SMD parts falling off circuit boards because of melted solder is a clue that the design has a problem. This is too much heat to be controlled in the space allotted to the fixture in the installation. One only need look at it, to see.


No evidence exists here, that points to any cause other than heat, but there are other factors that are related to over driving a LED junction with a PWM system.

It is common that the junction will suffer a form of secondary breakdown where small sections of the diode die (physical structure) will over heat and short the junction, without causing a gross increase in overall heat generation. This is the most common failure mode in high output LED lighting, industry wide, and I believe is a factor here also.


Voltage transients will never reach the LED (device) because of the power conditioning circuits driving the LED. The drivers are, however, susceptible. The LED itself is not especially susceptible to this type of damage.


I think M4 may have reason not to understand the problem.


Phil
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Old 07-18-2015, 01:46 PM   #74
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Bad form to post reply to my post, but...

I wanted to add that I have had our Reyo for six months and have had time to observe the LED lighting. Have not lost any yet. We only run them for 4 to 6 hours a night and while we travel a lot, we don't spend a lot of time in the MH.

Heat is very well controlled in our light units and when we have trouble, it will not be because of that.

Our battery voltage maxes at 14.3 during certain times of the maintenance program and averages 13.4. Between the solar power and the house charger and the vehicle alternator, the batteries tend to run frequently on the high side. This is loose observation as I don't obsess over it as I have seen some do. Of course the lamps usually run only on shore power.


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Old 07-19-2015, 09:14 AM   #75
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I would like to reply to you without calling M4's competency into question.


The very good picture of the scope data shows me a signal level of approx .35 volts at roughly 200 kilohertz. This signal obviously comes from the light fixture PWM circuitry. The signal sample, I will assume, was taken right at the fixture connection to the coach wire run.


There is a long run of two wires that meander back to the battery, eventually. This length of wiring has both resistance and inductance. Lets call that impedance, since we are dealing with an high frequency current. This impedance insures that this “noise” will manifest itself quite strongly. If the fixture was connected right at the battery with very short wires, it is unlikely the same test would show any “noise” at all.


This noise that M4 believes is responsible for the failures is generated by the same device that is failing. How this relates to the coach electrical system being responsible, eludes me.


The electrical environment in a coach can be severe at times with noisy electrical supply throughout the system. Battery maintenance systems, regardless of type, can push system voltages well above 14 volts regardless of the battery technology used. These voltages may be short term or long term and contain transients much higher than 14.4 volts. This is the environment a product must be designed to thrive in. If it can't thrive here, then the weakness is in the lighting system, not the coach.


The evidence provided so far shows that overheating is responsible for some failures. SMD parts falling off circuit boards because of melted solder is a clue that the design has a problem. This is too much heat to be controlled in the space allotted to the fixture in the installation. One only need look at it, to see.


No evidence exists here, that points to any cause other than heat, but there are other factors that are related to over driving a LED junction with a PWM system.

It is common that the junction will suffer a form of secondary breakdown where small sections of the diode die (physical structure) will over heat and short the junction, without causing a gross increase in overall heat generation. This is the most common failure mode in high output LED lighting, industry wide, and I believe is a factor here also.


Voltage transients will never reach the LED (device) because of the power conditioning circuits driving the LED. The drivers are, however, susceptible. The LED itself is not especially susceptible to this type of damage.


I think M4 may have reason not to understand the problem.


Phil
When I was young, in the mid 60's, I studied LED's in collage, along with tubes and transistors. I have not worked with them to any great extent and never at the depth you have gone into here except, and maybe because the years are clouding my memory, when I was a student. I understand your explanation. I have asked M4 to read your posting on this thread for themselves.

We know when the coaches are assembled no regard is given to reactive noise pickup on the wires used throughout. These parallel running wires act like antenna receivers, resonating with all the electronic noise around. If they were twisted pairs much of this noise would be reduced. But, as you have indicated, they are what they are.

Thank you so much for joining in on this conversation.

Rick Y
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Old 07-21-2015, 10:53 AM   #76
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I wanted to wait until repairs to post. We are at GNC in Iowa and have spent three days at the service center. The tech said Winnebago was aware of the problem and will replace the lights for the life of the rig. They replaced all of our lights. This does not solve the problem but it does confirm that they do know about. Coming to the winnebago plant has been a great experience and if we ever need work...but can function...we will come here. They have plenty of space to spend the night in your rig with electric hookup. There is a 10 station dump/water less than a mile away and it is free. You get to talk to your service person!
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Old 07-21-2015, 11:06 AM   #77
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Not all LED's are dimmable as you know and if the spec does not state they are I am guessing they are not.
And even dimmable ones may not be dimmable if you have a system like ours. There isn't enough resistance with the LED's, they draw so little power that they won't dim in our rig.
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Old 07-22-2015, 08:19 AM   #78
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Phil, I need to address this statement you ended with: "I think M4 may have reason not to understand the problem."

Steve at M4Products has been working with me in a very diligent way to try to figure out why my rig is suffering with this high failure rate. You are too harsh here. Your insight on the topic is great and I don't want to take the focus off this fact.

For the record, I sent this link to my contact at M4 and he is using your insight. It is so good, for me a consumer, to have a supplier take a personal interest in a product problem that seems to be unique to my situation only. I have not had anyone respond to my question about M4 LED failures. So, the question still remains. What makes my coach so unique in this situation?

Again, I direct this question to Phil: Do you see any connection between the charging rate of my inverter and the LED problem? I am using the factory installed Magnum MS2812 (true sine wave) to charge my NAPA AGM battery bank consisting of 6 group 31's. These are made by Optima.

Thanks again for your input. (No pun intended. lol)

Rick Y
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Old 07-22-2015, 10:01 AM   #79
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I am currently at the GNR and talked to the ITC rep yesterday and sent them a link to this thread.
Evidently late last year they changed to "greener" lead-free solder in the manufacturing process. Evidently this has a lower melt point than the previous solder and is causing failures in some fixtures likely due to the heat on the circuit board.
Both ITC and Winnebago are well aware of the issue. The batch numbers of the potentially defect units are known and it will be interesting to see how Winnebago elects to manage the replacement process. If others with the issue are currently at the GNR, they can discuss it with the ITC rep there.
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Old 07-22-2015, 10:25 AM   #80
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It is getting difficult to use our kitchen as we no longer have working overhead lights. In fact, more than half of our LED overhead lights no longer work. I could understand that one light would fail early, but it is hard to believe that 9 failures in two months is due to chance.

Did Winnebago buy a bad batch of lights? Anybody else have this problem? I assume that they will be replaced under warranty when we get to Forest City in August, in the mean time we will use temporary lights bought at Loves.
Hello, We bought our 30T at the end of March. We have used it for about 3 weeks. We have one led light that is only half lit (in kitchen area). Dealer just had to order a whole new light for it.
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