9 out of 16 LED lightbulbs failed in 2015 38Q

[ImagineIF]

Wow, those must be some hot fixtures. Most solder begins to melt at 180 degrees or more with flow temperatures if 210 degrees or more. The hottest LED fixture I've seen was about 140 degrees. It was a 100W equivalent 120V replacement light.

[PSOUZA]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

Phil, I need to address this statement you ended with: "I think M4 may have reason not to understand the problem."

Steve at M4Products has been working with me in a very diligent way to try to figure out why my rig is suffering with this high failure rate. You are too harsh here.
Again, I direct this question to Phil: Do you see any connection between the charging rate of my inverter and the LED problem? I am using the factory installed Magnum MS2812 (true sine wave) to charge my NAPA AGM battery bank consisting of 6 group 31's. These are made by Optima.

Thanks again for your input. (No pun intended. lol)

Rick Y

Not harsh at all, merely acknowledging a possible business necessity of not not revealing too much in public communications. Plausible deniability is a methodology in customer relations that allows both sides to interact with more freedom in possibly contentious situations. Sounds like you have found a good contact and good company culture.


I would venture to say that most people who have had lamp fixture failures will never know who made them.... or the particulars of what technology is inside them. I confess that I had no knowledge of mine until, in response to your post, I went out to look at mine. I even took out one of my 'scopes to monitor the electrical noise.


All my recessed ceiling fixtures are of ITC origin and are composed of all passive components, so generate no noise. No noise in my system with either solar charge or shore power in operation. Batteries were fully charged, so this may (will) change in other conditions.


I have no direct technical knowledge of your particular lamp assemblies other than the “noise” samples you provided. I assumed that the noise is generated by them because it is so difficult to impress that much ripple, at that frequency, and at that current level drawn by the lights, on a fully charged storage battery in good condition.


It would be helpful in further diagnosis, to monitor the noise level at the battery terminals. If the noise is present at the same level, or higher, than it was at the lamp connection then there is reason to consider the coach systems as a possible contributor. This is an important observation to make. Perhaps definitive.


The charging rate in current is not relevant, but the terminal voltage of the battery is. To confuse the issue...The charger is usually some distance from the battery. About 20 feet of wire in the case of my unit. The power take off point for distribution is usually at the output of converted/charger, thus guaranteeing the coach system voltage while under charge will be higher than at the battery. The voltage increase and noise present will be proportional to the resistance of the wire between the charger and the battery. Both the positive and negative wire length figure in this loss. So a repair, if this is part of the problem will not be trivial. In my unit the total wire length is 40 feet!!


If you find high levels of noise at the battery caused by the charger and the level is as low as you measured before, I can not attribute the failure of the lamps to that small a voltage. It would be wise to also measure the noise at the output of the charger. Comparing the relative levels will aid in determining the source of noise.


Sorry the answer is not a direct and simple one.

Briefly stated, I see no observed data yet that indicates why your coach is eating lamps. BUT if the noise you observed can be attributed to the coach and NOT the lamp(s) then I would have to dig deeper in to some other anomaly, as yet not observed, related to the coach charging, distribution system. Voltage spikes caused by the water pump(s) would be an example. Spikes from generator or chassis starter motor another.


Phil

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by PSOUZA

Not harsh at all, merely acknowledging a possible business necessity of not not revealing too much in public communications. Plausible deniability is a methodology in customer relations that allows both sides to interact with more freedom in possibly contentious situations. Sounds like you have found a good contact and good company culture.


I would venture to say that most people who have had lamp fixture failures will never know who made them.... or the particulars of what technology is inside them. I confess that I had no knowledge of mine until, in response to your post, I went out to look at mine. I even took out one of my 'scopes to monitor the electrical noise.


All my recessed ceiling fixtures are of ITC origin and are composed of all passive components, so generate no noise. No noise in my system with either solar charge or shore power in operation. Batteries were fully charged, so this may (will) change in other conditions.


I have no direct technical knowledge of your particular lamp assemblies other than the “noise” samples you provided. I assumed that the noise is generated by them because it is so difficult to impress that much ripple, at that frequency, and at that current level drawn by the lights, on a fully charged storage battery in good condition.


It would be helpful in further diagnosis, to monitor the noise level at the battery terminals. If the noise is present at the same level, or higher, than it was at the lamp connection then there is reason to consider the coach systems as a possible contributor. This is an important observation to make. Perhaps definitive.


The charging rate in current is not relevant, but the terminal voltage of the battery is. To confuse the issue...The charger is usually some distance from the battery. About 20 feet of wire in the case of my unit. The power take off point for distribution is usually at the output of converted/charger, thus guaranteeing the coach system voltage while under charge will be higher than at the battery. The voltage increase and noise present will be proportional to the resistance of the wire between the charger and the battery. Both the positive and negative wire length figure in this loss. So a repair, if this is part of the problem will not be trivial. In my unit the total wire length is 40 feet!!


If you find high levels of noise at the battery caused by the charger and the level is as low as you measured before, I can not attribute the failure of the lamps to that small a voltage. It would be wise to also measure the noise at the output of the charger. Comparing the relative levels will aid in determining the source of noise.


Sorry the answer is not a direct and simple one.

Briefly stated, I see no observed data yet that indicates why your coach is eating lamps. BUT if the noise you observed can be attributed to the coach and NOT the lamp(s) then I would have to dig deeper in to some other anomaly, as yet not observed, related to the coach charging, distribution system. Voltage spikes caused by the water pump(s) would be an example. Spikes from generator or chassis starter motor another.


Phil

Thanks Phil for clarifying. Steve at M4 is sending me, out of warranty, new LED's. Those replace under warranty are working fine. They upgraded a capacitor, if I understand him correctly.

I agree about doing more testing. I just have not had the time. My first test will be at the fixture that the LED test was done. I will have only halogens in the circuit. When I test I will not have any LED's on just to get a "clean" reading.

I'll update ASAP. Today my CR-V is going to the shop for a steering problem so I'll not be able to work on the lights. I'll be heading to a volunteer project in a week and I hope to get all of the coach issues behind me by then.

Rick Y

[dbaer70]

We have had 6 failures so far, ours are the 21 led, 4.5" ITC fixtures. My feeling is they have a lousy heat sink & overheat. I am rusty with waveforms but I saw nothing alarming with them. My dealings with M4 LED's have been outstanding. They have outstanding customer service.

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by dbaer70

We have had 6 failures so far, ours are the 21 led, 4.5" ITC fixtures. My feeling is they have a lousy heat sink & overheat. I am rusty with waveforms but I saw nothing alarming with them. My dealings with M4 LED's have been outstanding. They have outstanding customer service.

Please see post #79 concerning the ITC failures. It looks like they are trying to find a solution.

M4 products does have outstanding customer service. I have several replacement from them from a different batch. They seem to be working fine. Steve at M4 is arraigning for more replacements to be shipped to me.

I am going to retest my light circuit with halogens in it to see the difference. I am suspecting Phil is correct with his analysis but I just want to be certain that there is not any other hidden noise that could be causing problems. What I don't understand is why should my coach have received all of the bad LED's in that batch? M4 has not had massive failures as I am getting. In a earlier post I requested M4 Product LED users check to see if any segments are out or if they have had any failures. I have not gotten any replies to this request so I can only assume that the problem is local to me. Very frustrating.

I'll post the new test results here.

Rick Y

[PSOUZA]

Originally Posted by bobmac

I am currently at the GNR and talked to the ITC rep yesterday and sent them a link to this thread.
Evidently late last year they changed to "greener" lead-free solder in the manufacturing process. Evidently this has a lower melt point than the previous solder and is causing failures in some fixtures likely due to the heat on the circuit board.
Both ITC and Winnebago are well aware of the issue. The batch numbers of the potentially defect units are known and it will be interesting to see how Winnebago elects to manage the replacement process. If others with the issue are currently at the GNR, they can discuss it with the ITC rep there.

The change to lead free solder has been a difficult one for the electronics industry. High density consumer products have been most adversely affected by reliability issues caused by tin whiskers growing between the pads and causing shorts. This is why lead free solder was never certified for space flight and is not used in medical electronics.




Lead solder melts at 361*F / 183*C. Lead free melts at 428*F / 270*C We can't blame that for components falling off the board(s).


Automotive SMD resistor specifications set a high temperature limit for the film element at 175* C / 375* F. The numbers say that lead free solder is a good thing in these fixtures.


No engineer would ever intentionally create a design that runs the components that close to the limits.


The only way for heat to leave the component is by radiation, convection, and through conduction thru the soldered connection. The last is the most effective source of cooling. This means the traditional concept of a separate heat sink does not apply here. Most heat will be radiated out by the circuit board.


So I measured my own light fixture, a ITC and found, after allowing time for the temperature to stabilize, a maximum of 185 *F. I am comfortable with that.

Phil

[jerichorick]

This is mainly addressed to Phil but may be of interest to those following this thread.

I just finished measuring the voltages with the same o-scope I used earlier but with only halogens in the circuit and only it turned on. I didn't get the wave form I did with the LED's. It was a pure DC voltage. The only confusing kicker is that the scope, DC coupling, and my VOM are reading 12.2VDC. My inverter, reading 13.6, and my OnePlace monitor, reading 13.3, are always in conflict. My confusion is why 12.2 at the light fixture? Later today, if DW doesn't have plans for me, I'll pull the 12V breaker panel under the bed and test there. None of the breakers are labeled so I'll be metering for a common problem or loss through a breaker.

Now I am way off the original purpose of testing. How the thought plickens.

Rick Y

[PSOUZA]

Originally Posted by jerichorick

This is mainly addressed to Phil but may be of interest to those following this thread.

I just finished measuring the voltages with the same o-scope I used earlier but with only halogens in the circuit and only it turned on. I didn't get the wave form I did with the LED's. It was a pure DC voltage. The only confusing kicker is that the scope, DC coupling, and my VOM are reading 12.2VDC. My inverter, reading 13.6, and my OnePlace monitor, reading 13.3, are always in conflict. My confusion is why 12.2 at the light fixture? Later today, if DW doesn't have plans for me, I'll pull the 12V breaker panel under the bed and test there. None of the breakers are labeled so I'll be metering for a common problem or loss through a breaker.

Now I am way off the original purpose of testing. How the thought plickens.

Rick Y

You are about to lift the cover off a bucket of well aged red herring. I can smell it from here. I suggest you proceed only with the intention of gaining an “education” and not finding a “problem”.


Several things are going to cause you confusion.


The accuracy of your instruments is not to be trusted. You are attempting to compare readings from several different sources. All, I bet, are with digital readouts. Never do this unless you have quality equipment with certified, current calibration from a certified cal lab. Even then no two instruments will ever agree. The old saying...A man with one clock knows the time. A man with two clocks is never sure. (or some thing like that), This is always true in test equipment. This is my area of expertise.


The voltage measuring abilities of One Place and all other devices found in a motor home are intended only for relative comparisons over time, on that particular device, not for comparisons between other devices which may not meter from the same location.


The only instrument you should use is your VOM. While not absolutely accurate, it will be consistent. Measure and record the voltage at the battery. Use this as your reference for all other measurements. Digital readouts give a false sense of accuracy to unwary users.


And remember ohm's law...if you place a load at the end of a long wire, the voltage will drop in proportion to the current the load draws. The voltage reading conflicts are caused by this, as well as basic instrument inaccuracies. Better to go help DW with her plans.


Phil

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by PSOUZA

You are about to lift the cover off a bucket of well aged red herring. I can smell it from here. I suggest you proceed only with the intention of gaining an “education” and not finding a “problem”.


Several things are going to cause you confusion.


The accuracy of your instruments is not to be trusted. You are attempting to compare readings from several different sources. All, I bet, are with digital readouts. Never do this unless you have quality equipment with certified, current calibration from a certified cal lab. Even then no two instruments will ever agree. The old saying...A man with one clock knows the time. A man with two clocks is never sure. (or some thing like that), This is always true in test equipment. This is my area of expertise.


The voltage measuring abilities of One Place and all other devices found in a motor home are intended only for relative comparisons over time, on that particular device, not for comparisons between other devices which may not meter from the same location.


The only instrument you should use is your VOM. While not absolutely accurate, it will be consistent. Measure and record the voltage at the battery. Use this as your reference for all other measurements. Digital readouts give a false sense of accuracy to unwary users.


And remember ohm's law...if you place a load at the end of a long wire, the voltage will drop in proportion to the current the load draws. The voltage reading conflicts are caused by this, as well as basic instrument inaccuracies. Better to go help DW with her plans.


Phil

Your a wise owl but still a hoot.

Yea, I know the coach supplied meters are just for reference. But I also know that my battery is not 12.2V and that the current for the wire size for those 3 lit halogens can't be that strong to give that much loss. I'm going to take a peak later to see if anything might be loose. Our rigs do a bit of shaking from time to time and expand and contract too with the temperature changes. Screws loosen on the busses and this is what I want to check. Better safe than to discover through failure.

More to come about this adventure.

Rick Y

[cb1000rider]

Again, the issue that triggered this post, and one of a Newmar, and my Keystone was a bad batch of lights made by ITC. In my case, ITC acknowledged the "bad batch" and shipped replacements after I provided a part number. Getting them from my dealer took much longer.

Alternate AC voltages may cause premature failures, but in the case here, my case, and I suspect a good number of other cases with 2015 RVs, the SMDs on the ITC lights are falling out or otherwise failing...

Search "ITC LED".

[SubVet]

My experience is from the "Dark Ages" admittedly. But I can second the information that Phil is putting out. Before I retired from the Navy (20 +) years ago in one assignment I was in charge of a Electronics shop that had a Calibration Lab attached to it. We did primarily analog test equipment, the military specifically did not allow digital test gear in some areas. The lions share of Multi-meters were Simpson 260's. Even within that family of meters there were ones that were NOT allowed in certain critical salutations. It was the 260e meters that were not to be used in very sensitive applications.

I always take my Fluke digital readings with a grain of salt. I had an old Heathkit that was a clone of the 260 but it died.

Thanks,

[ImagineIF]

Simpson 260...I remember them well from my Air Force years. I've converted and do trust my Fluke.

[PSOUZA]

Originally Posted by cb1000rider

Again, the issue that triggered this post, and one of a Newmar, and my Keystone was a bad batch of lights made by ITC. In my case, ITC acknowledged the "bad batch" and shipped replacements after I provided a part number. Getting them from my dealer took much longer.

Alternate AC voltages may cause premature failures, but in the case here, my case, and I suspect a good number of other cases with 2015 RVs, the SMDs on the ITC lights are falling out or otherwise failing...

Search "ITC LED".

The issue with ITC is but one example of attempting to gain as much brilliance in the product with out regard for good engineering practices. I would guess without an engineer..period.


The ITC product is as simple as it gets. LED's with current limiting resistance in series. No regulated power supply, no magic. So simple anyone can do it. So what happened?


The SMD components did not just fall off. They melted the solder. That is a defect in parts value selection. There are many possible ways parts of the wrong type and characteristics can “just appear” in an otherwise sound design during production but it is not my intention to criticize the company. They are paying the price for it. They probably did not "make" the product any way and had no control over the "process".


Reported failures of lamp products from other manufacturers share a common cause. Inattention to the manufacture / documentation process and possible unawareness of the actual environment the product must be able to withstand.


All in all, a common shake out of new technology undertaken on the cheap.


Phil

[bobmac]

Phil
You need to understand that the ITC devices are not "new". They have been successfully installed in Winnebago coaches since 2013. Your allegation of poor engineering is unfounded and could even be considered libelous by the manufacturer. ITC have acknowledged that they had problems arise from the first batches when they attempted to switch to lead free solder. Specifically, the problem was with the paste used and they reverted to the previous process.
I have had 20+ of the same fixtures in my coach since 2013 and have absolutely no issues. There have been no complaints about ITC refusing to step up to the issue although it doesn't appear that Winnebago has seen a clear and efficient path to correcting the problem yet. Unless you are able to offer tangible evidence to support your claims then it might be time to step back and watch how the problem is ultimately resolved. Remember the old adage - "Don't let your mouth write cheques your body can't cash!"

[PSOUZA]

Originally Posted by bobmac

Phil
You need to understand that the ITC devices are not "new". They have been successfully installed in Winnebago coaches since 2013. Your allegation of poor engineering is unfounded and could even be considered libelous by the manufacturer. ITC have acknowledged that they had problems arise from the first batches when they attempted to switch to lead free solder. Specifically, the problem was with the paste used and they reverted to the previous process.
I have had 20+ of the same fixtures in my coach since 2013 and have absolutely no issues. There have been no complaints about ITC refusing to step up to the issue although it doesn't appear that Winnebago has seen a clear and efficient path to correcting the problem yet. Unless you are able to offer tangible evidence to support your claims then it might be time to step back and watch how the problem is ultimately resolved. Remember the old adage - "Don't let your mouth write cheques your body can't cash!"

Bob


It depends on what the meaning of new means to you. LED technology is not new. High intensity application of LED devices is new and has been directed toward an entirely new consumer market. Three years exposure in a competitive market is but an instant in time to establish a reputation of a product. A reputation can be destroyed in one engineering cycle.


A change in manufacturing process requires an ECO. Engineering change orders, in a traditionally organized manufacturing organization, requires an engineer to sign off on the process change. Seemingly simple adjustments to the manufacturing process can have wide ranging unintended consequences. Off shore manufacturing operations are more relaxed in this regard as well as in many other aspects of traditional process control. This relaxed attitude is easily seen in many of the products we are required to purchase. It is poor engineering practice at work.

Something must patently untrue to be considered libelous.


This problem has poor engineering at the heart of it. ITC probably did not commit the deed, but they must take the responsibility, as they have done.


I have a coach full of ITC lighting and have no complaints. I have measured the heat of the individual components and attendant heat rise and consider the design and implementation sound. Yes, I am qualified.


At no time have I implied that ITC has failed to honor its responsibilities. To the contrary, they seem to have done the right thing. Also the only thing. Do not attribute your stray thoughts to me.


Winnebago will do what it thinks it must. They are caught in the middle of another company's problem. They will either replace with existing stock, which may not fix the issue, or wait for new, corrected product from the manufacturer. This may take some time. And least likely, Winnebago may supply product from another source, that may or may not require modification to fit.


The problem will be resolved, I have no doubt. And step back? I don't think so.

Are you requesting a loan, by chance??
Phil

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by bobmac

Phil
You need to understand that the ITC devices are not "new". They have been successfully installed in Winnebago coaches since 2013. Your allegation of poor engineering is unfounded and could even be considered libelous by the manufacturer. ITC have acknowledged that they had problems arise from the first batches when they attempted to switch to lead free solder. Specifically, the problem was with the paste used and they reverted to the previous process.
I have had 20+ of the same fixtures in my coach since 2013 and have absolutely no issues. There have been no complaints about ITC refusing to step up to the issue although it doesn't appear that Winnebago has seen a clear and efficient path to correcting the problem yet. Unless you are able to offer tangible evidence to support your claims then it might be time to step back and watch how the problem is ultimately resolved. Remember the old adage - "Don't let your mouth write cheques your body can't cash!"

Bob, I am posting my comments to your comments publicly just as a reminder to us all. We are all on this forum to find information and to share our knowledge. When one says something that seems to be offensive to you, whomever you may be, please send the one who offended you a private massage and resolve the problem privately.

Please consider this, Bob. Many companies have been around for a long time but they still have product lines that they introduce that are not well engineered. No "liable" charges are brought against the consumers who call them on it. If they ARE truly a truly successful company they admit their wrong thinking by troubleshooting the product failure and then apply an appropriate fix. It seems that ITC is doing just that in this case.

Don't overlook all of us who are complaining here on the forum and directly to Winnebago about their slipping quality control. Are you willing to hold us liable for stating this truth? To top it off Winnebago does not seem to care because their QC is still poor from with I can determine from the new buyers posting on this forum.

Bottom line? Let's all be kind and respectful when we disagree publicly.

Happy trails,
Rick Y

[RVHERE]

I have a 15 Sunstar 2k miles and 1 ceiling LED went out about 2 weeks ago I have been trying to get a replacement from dealer Camping World after much trouble getting them to order and return my calls/emails a new light is supposedly on the way. Today I have another one out and another one that is working half bright, I suppose I should get ahold of the mfg. Chuck

[PSOUZA]

Originally Posted by RVHERE

I have a 15 Sunstar 2k miles and 1 ceiling LED went out about 2 weeks ago I have been trying to get a replacement from dealer Camping World after much trouble getting them to order and return my calls/emails a new light is supposedly on the way. Today I have another one out and another one that is working half bright, I suppose I should get ahold of the mfg. Chuck

You don't give the particulars on the light manufacturer, but I just checked Ebay and Amazon for ITC led. Depending on your particular needs,they are available both places at reasonable prices.

I suggest people begin to explore other sources to expedite their own recovery from this "inconvenience".

Phil

[jerichorick]

Originally Posted by PSOUZA

You don't give the particulars on the light manufacturer, but I just checked Ebay and Amazon for ITC led. Depending on your particular needs,they are available both places at reasonable prices.

I suggest people begin to explore other sources to expedite their own recovery from this "inconvenience".

Phil

about other sources. Camping World is never a first choice in my opinion and with all the trouble folks are having with ITC I am wondering if they will finally fix their problem. But a closer look has to be taken at the age of the units that are failing. I am only guessing that these are, at most, a couple of years old if they are OEM.

I just got the replacements from M4 Products. They did a change to a capacitor. Let's see how these hold up. But, call me a fool, because the light is so comfortable to our eyes I bought more to replace the more used lights not converted yet.

I would like to hear from ALL who are reading this forum and who have LEDs a few years old.

Consider these observations: Number of months your rig is in service. Months of the year your rig is used most. Number of hours a day your lights are on. Manufacturer and size/style of the lamp.

We need some observations about the world the LEDs are functioning in. For example, my coach is in use full-time. We have used LED's for about a year and a half. We average about 8 to 9 hours a day as a guess. In winter and when we are in the coach all day the lights could be on from 7 AM to 8 PM with no problem.

I had a cheap set of LED's that I tried in my last coach. They didn't last 2 months in lamps with limited use. The segments turned black and fell off.

Rick Y

[RVHERE]

I called ITC this morning and they said they were aware of a batch of bad LEDs and will send me replacements as needed. They said it was a solder issue. The lights have a 3 year warranty. I am VERY dissapointed with CW and their response to my calls.