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Old 02-26-2021, 05:54 PM   #1
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It really is a dirty job.

I seem to be having some trouble with my black water tank.

On our previous trip the gauge told me that the tank was full, but when I emptied it there was not nearly enough fluid to account for dumping a 43 gallon black water tank. My thought was that the gauges were just not accurate so on our last trip I actually kept on eye on the level in the tank itself by peering down the toilet when it was open. Ugh.

This time I knew it was full because the fluid level was almost up to the toilet itself, but when I again emptied it it only seemed to dump perhaps 5 or 10 gallons, based on how much fluid I could see in the transparent 90 degree bend that goes into the dump tank, and it showed as being 2/3 full even after repeated rinsing with the black water fill hose. I could see no fluid in the tank when I looked in the toilet, but the tank seems to angle right under the toilet and I could not see the rest of the tank.

I worry that during one of our night time visits to the toilet something like a washcloth or towel might have fallen into the toilet and been flushed down, and it might be preventing the tank from emptying properly, but the only way I know to be sure is to remove the toilet and look. The problem is that I don't know how to remove the toilet, or if there is a better way to check.

Looking for a way out of this nasty job I checked Google to see if any shops around here do that sort of work, but I could not find any, and I have to admit that I would not like to have that as my primary job either, so perhaps I will have to do it.

Can anyone suggest any other way to check to see if there is something in the black tank preventing it from draining properly? Or even if there is any fluid still in the tank? Or any easy way to remove the toilet? The tank is not transparent or even translucent so I can not see the level by shining a light into the toilet and looking at the outside of the tank. And with the tank seeming to angle away from the toilet drop I can not see the bottom by looking. Perhaps there is some waterproof camera on a bendable rod that I could insert to look, but I don't know where I could find something like that, or even what name to browse for on the internet.

Any help would be appreciated.
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Old 02-26-2021, 06:50 PM   #2
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I tend to look for the easier ways to try first, so I might suggest a couple other ideas which I feel might be as good a chance and perhaps one of them might work.

Looking at the parts drawings here:
https://catalog3d.winnebagoind.com/2018/323265.htm

From what I see, you would only gain a limited amount of more view by removing the stool as you can likely see almost as much. The distance between the yellow lines I've drawn in the first picture?

I'm guessing that a clog right at that point would be something you might see, so I move to another point which might be suspect.

If a rag got flushed or any other clog, seems more likely to be at the pipe going out of the tank as in picture two???
I'm more inclined to think a clog might jam at that point or the valve body!

Keeping in mind I'm looking for the easy way, I have two suggestions.
I would not hesitate at all to go first for filling the tank with a hose down the stool or vanity sink as it does go into your black tank, wait a while and see if the increased pressure from a totally full tank, suddenly released, might blow a rag out. Any chance of a sanitary napkin missing?
They vex landlords frequently!

But assuming more is needed?
First is that I use a lot of bleach and I certainly know it is safe to use on most plastics and it DOES certainly eat up organics like cloth! You may have found it will eat your shirt, so maybe now is a good time to test the idea that a rag is stuck and pour a jug of cheap bleach in the tank, let it set overnight or so and then see if it flows.

Use care if doing this, if you are not up on what bleach does as it WILL ruin anything organic, like shirt, pants, shoes and grass, etc.
Watch where and how you dump it!

A different and harder idea is that one might be able to remove the bolts from the drain valves and get them out to run something in the drain to clear a clog.
In theory----a guy "might" be lucky enough to run a fish tape in through the drain and get past the valve to the right and snag a rag out????? I might go for something that is kind of stiff like a #12 copper wire, so that if it got hooked on the valve, I could still pull it out and not have an added problem with a fish tape stuck in the line!

How about trying to seal a water hose pushed up the drain with the grey valve closed and black opened to try to "backflush" the line?

A little luck may be needed to I'm sending happy thoughts your way because this could get messy!
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Old 02-26-2021, 07:43 PM   #3
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AJMike, what I would do is first try to completely drain the tank as best I could. Be sure to do it on a level surface so the tank is not tilted away from the drain. Then I would start to dump 5 gallon buckets of water into the toilet and count how many buckets/gallons it takes to fill the tank. Maybe try this twice. Based on the results of this I would then have a better idea what to do next. If it only takes 10 gallons to refill the tank, then you are correct - it is not draining properly.

To me at first it was hard to judge how much fluid came out of our tanks. A 4" pipe can drain a lot of water pretty fast. After dumping the tanks many times, I kind of developed a sixth sense to how long it would "normally" take to dump a completely full tank and also what it would sound like. Another thought is that most plumbers have cameras that they can insert through the toilet into the tank to scope it out. Just tell them to be careful they don't damage the toilet ball seal.
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Old 02-26-2021, 10:11 PM   #4
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Just a guess:

A) If you have a mechanical toilet you push on a foot peddle... open the toilet down spout and use a USB camera you connect to your cell phone.

I just ordered one to inspect inside my water heater, can it has a 16' metal wand for any type of colonoscopy you need to preform on your black water system if you can get inside. (And you can keep the camera lens from getting wet... but I understand the camera it's IP67 water tight, so you can't hurt it. Now seeing something is another concern.)

Note: This camera scope has a metal hook you can put on the end too. Maybe this hook will allow your snag the washcloth you find inside?

What sort of discharge concerns or blockage are you experiencing?

B) If you have an electric toilet like I do, I highly recommend you do not obstruct that ball valve and bend it somehow, because if you do you could disrupt the seal and fresh water will no longer pool inside the toilet.


So I can envision this: Open the toilet electrically... and when the ball retracts, pull the power by disconnecting the 12V wire... hidden behind the toilet. Hopefully, this will hold the ball valve open so you can insert the USB Camera Probe. Note: I have never tried it so I can't say this will work. TBD.

C) You should be able to scope the other end where your drains are located too.


$23 on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And then you upload the "Mscopes" App to your cell phone to view the video signal. Works great.

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Do you need special permissions or need to register to use Winnebago's 3D tools? I can't seem to get it to work for my coach.
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Old 02-27-2021, 12:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imnprsd View Post
Just a guess:

A) If you have a mechanical toilet you push on a foot peddle... open the toilet down spout and use a USB camera you connect to your cell phone.

I just ordered one to inspect inside my water heater, can it has a 16' metal wand for any type of colonoscopy you need to preform on your black water system if you can get inside. (And you can keep the camera lens from getting wet... but I understand the camera it's IP67 water tight, so you can't hurt it. Now seeing something is another concern.)

Note: This camera scope has a metal hook you can put on the end too. Maybe this hook will allow your snag the washcloth you find inside?

What sort of discharge concerns or blockage are you experiencing?

B) If you have an electric toilet like I do, I highly recommend you do not obstruct that ball valve and bend it somehow, because if you do you could disrupt the seal and fresh water will no longer pool inside the toilet.


So I can envision this: Open the toilet electrically... and when the ball retracts, pull the power by disconnecting the 12V wire... hidden behind the toilet. Hopefully, this will hold the ball valve open so you can insert the USB Camera Probe. Note: I have never tried it so I can't say this will work. TBD.

C) You should be able to scope the other end where your drains are located too.


$23 on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And then you upload the "Mscopes" App to your cell phone to view the video signal. Works great.

PS
Do you need special permissions or need to register to use Winnebago's 3D tools? I can't seem to get it to work for my coach.
I like this idea, it’s what I’d do, (and have done). And I used one of these, to hold the toilet valve open, without damaging it.

Insofar as the 3D Winnebago schematics, no, you do not need special access, other than the right internet browser.

Here’s the link.... https://catalog3d.winnebagoind.com/menu/Parts.htm
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Old 02-27-2021, 04:14 AM   #6
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AJMike-

1) According to the link "Morich" provides, the pipe between the toilet and the tank is a straight drop of about 12 inches- no bends in it. That description conflicts with your description.

2) According to the same link, it's a 40-gallon-capacity black tank, not 43-gallon.

These make me question if the link matches what is in your coach.

3) A careful backflush will dislodge and clear many drain problems. I recommend a Valterra Flush-King (link here). There are other products, but in my limited experience they do not work as well.

Notes on use:
a) A Flush-King can put 4 gallons per minute up the 3-inch sewer piping, so it pays to be gentle/gradual if you're trying to dislodge a clog. Add a little, release a little, until you get a feel for how it works.
b) Begin by making sure the flexible drain pipe between the Flush-King and the discharge (into the underground piping) is unclogged.
c) To keep an eye on how much water you are adding, put a flowmeter (link here) on the inlet hose.
d) If you can, shut off the water to the toilet before backflushing (see next note).
e) Backflushing can pressurize the tank. If you fill it and then open the toilet valve quickly, that pressure can create a "geyser." Be careful when you open the toilet flush valve (by stepping on the pedal). A slow release of pressure is best.
f) Never leave the back-flush unattended while the water is running.
g) Attach the provided check valve to the Flush-King and always use it.
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Old 02-27-2021, 07:00 AM   #7
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First, thank you, all of you, for the replies. The fact is that I had not thought of many of these methods to solve the problem, and I am going to try a couple of them.

One of the problems is that I don't have a handy place to drain the black tank when I am home, as I am now. Our storage facility has no dump station and there is no place where I can park the RV and just sit there while filling the tank, then dump it, then fill it again, and so on. Even the commercial dump stations around here are not going to let me just sit there and work on the black tank unless I am willing to pay for each and every dump, and even then there may be others waiting.

Given that the first thing I will do is get the camera and see what I can see in the tank. Perhaps I am wrong and there is no problem, but I don't see how my wife and I can fill up a 43 gallon black tank (that is what the specs say the tank size is) in 5 days unless it is not fully draining. After that I will try filling the tank with water, dump it and then count the amount I am putting in to see what it takes to fill it again.

The one thing I can not see how I can do is to use some "fish hook" device to clear the drain from the outlet valve. To do that I wold have to open the drain and insert something to try to clear any clog. But if I did that, and there was a clog, then I am going to get drenched by the outflow from the drain and I don't really want to look like Robin Williams in the movie RV.

Thanks to these posts I now have a way to proceed. Thank you, all of you, for your help, and I will post the results.

Please let me know of any other suggestions as these have been very helpful.
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Old 02-27-2021, 07:19 AM   #8
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Mike there are companies in Arizona that specialize in black tank cleaning. They use special high pressure hoses to power flush the tank. I couldn’t find one in AJ but did find one in Havasu. I’d think there would be one of these near Mesa, but I couldn’t find one.

https://hydrocleanaz.com/

UPDATE: Found one: www.tanktechsrx.com
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Old 02-27-2021, 07:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creativepart View Post
Mike there are companies in Arizona that specialize in black tank cleaning. They use special high pressure hoses to power flush the tank. I couldn’t find one in AJ but did find one in Havasu. I’d think there would be one of these near Mesa, but I couldn’t find one.

https://hydrocleanaz.com/

UPDATE: Found one: www.tanktechsrx.com
Thank you for that. It made me realize that perhaps I ought to be searching for something like "Black Tank Flushing" and I did find one in Mesa and have sent them an email to ask if they can do this.

I also ordered one of those "snake cameras" that should allow me to see into the tank itself, although any fluid is likely to be too dark to see through. Still, it should allow me to see if there is any fluid left in the tank after what should be a complete dump.

This thread has really been very, very helpful for me and I am grateful for all of the excellent and helpful answers and suggestions.
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Old 02-27-2021, 08:12 AM   #10
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With the new info on how long and how you've determined there is a problem, I might change the advise and say to just ride with it for a time while you get a better idea of the capacity of the tank.
There may not be a big problem but more a "perception" problem of what to expect??
Not being quite used to the tank and combined with a possible fouling of the level sensor, would a simple dipstick tell you if it is in fact holding a load of waste? It would likely not get a good answer to the amount as the tank is not a flat surface and what is an actual 2/3 might show up different that the stick. But a somewhat easy way to get more info what the problems might be.
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Old 02-27-2021, 09:38 AM   #11
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MIke, I was going to respond to the snake/fish up through the pipes but now all I can do is suggest, if you use that method, is to have your DW do it while you stand back and video record.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

All the solutions seem viable and the best one for me would be to find a back flush service.
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Old 02-27-2021, 09:49 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morich View Post
I tend to look for the easier ways to try first, so I might suggest a couple other ideas which I feel might be as good a chance and perhaps one of them might work.

Looking at the parts drawings here:
https://catalog3d.winnebagoind.com/2018/323265.htm

From what I see, you would only gain a limited amount of more view by removing the stool as you can likely see almost as much. The distance between the yellow lines I've drawn in the first picture?

I'm guessing that a clog right at that point would be something you might see, so I move to another point which might be suspect.

If a rag got flushed or any other clog, seems more likely to be at the pipe going out of the tank as in picture two???
I'm more inclined to think a clog might jam at that point or the valve body!

Keeping in mind I'm looking for the easy way, I have two suggestions.
I would not hesitate at all to go first for filling the tank with a hose down the stool or vanity sink as it does go into your black tank, wait a while and see if the increased pressure from a totally full tank, suddenly released, might blow a rag out. Any chance of a sanitary napkin missing?
They vex landlords frequently!

But assuming more is needed?
First is that I use a lot of bleach and I certainly know it is safe to use on most plastics and it DOES certainly eat up organics like cloth! You may have found it will eat your shirt, so maybe now is a good time to test the idea that a rag is stuck and pour a jug of cheap bleach in the tank, let it set overnight or so and then see if it flows.

Use care if doing this, if you are not up on what bleach does as it WILL ruin anything organic, like shirt, pants, shoes and grass, etc.
Watch where and how you dump it!

A different and harder idea is that one might be able to remove the bolts from the drain valves and get them out to run something in the drain to clear a clog.
In theory----a guy "might" be lucky enough to run a fish tape in through the drain and get past the valve to the right and snag a rag out????? I might go for something that is kind of stiff like a #12 copper wire, so that if it got hooked on the valve, I could still pull it out and not have an added problem with a fish tape stuck in the line!

How about trying to seal a water hose pushed up the drain with the grey valve closed and black opened to try to "backflush" the line?

A little luck may be needed to I'm sending happy thoughts your way because this could get messy!

So here's what happen to me. The wife and I have been out of camping for a while. On our second trip out the black water started to back up. I was like that is impossible. The size of the pipe and the shortness doesn't make sense. So It has a clean out I started to a bunch of fill and drains with the hose connection. Nothing was happening same **** ...no pund intended. I shot the water off and looked down the pipe and there was a mass of hardened toilet paper. It appeared the wife was just basically flushing and not filling up the bowl to let the waste get forced down. So I fed the water hose in the window and then started working a way at it with the hose pressure. Finally it broke free and problem was fixed.
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Old 02-27-2021, 10:09 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne M View Post
MIke, I was going to respond to the snake/fish up through the pipes but now all I can do is suggest, if you use that method, is to have your DW do it while you stand back and video record.
My guess is that this is probably not a good long-term solution.

Long time being measured as the time it would take my wife to get cleaned up and then come find me.
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Old 02-27-2021, 10:35 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJMike View Post
Given that the first thing I will do is get the camera and see what I can see in the tank. Perhaps I am wrong and there is no problem, but I don't see how my wife and I can fill up a 43 gallon black tank (that is what the specs say the tank size is) in 5 days unless it is not fully draining. After that I will try filling the tank with water, dump it and then count the amount I am putting in to see what it takes to fill it again.
AJMike; unless you are super careful how much water you use, it is very easy to fill a 43 gallon black tank in 5 days with two people. Especially if the drawing from Morich is correct and your bathroom sink also drains into your black tank. If you do use hardly any water when you flush, that creates other problems from too much very dry toilet paper as mentioned by HollywoodGT above.
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Old 02-27-2021, 10:43 AM   #15
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It might be noted that flushing from the bottom end was not my first thought but the last mentioned?
While it seems like a horrible issue, it really is not as much waste nor pressure as clearing a drain in a highrise building, so it just needs some thought before rushing into doing it!

I've never aspired to clan out drains and that is one really big reason I don't complain about the price they charge to do it for me!

But there does seem to be a lot of value in finding out if you actually have a problem before trying to work out how to solve it!! If the problem is only that the tank drains much quicker than expected, that really is not a problem to solve, is it?

My wife has called me at work to tell me things won't start and we find out she has forgotten to turn on the key!
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Old 02-27-2021, 10:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morich View Post
It might be noted that flushing from the bottom end was not my first thought but the last mentioned?
While it seems like a horrible issue, it really is not as much waste nor pressure as clearing a drain in a highrise building, so it just needs some thought before rushing into doing it!

I've never aspired to clan out drains and that is one really big reason I don't complain about the price they charge to do it for me!

But there does seem to be a lot of value in finding out if you actually have a problem before trying to work out how to solve it!! If the problem is only that the tank drains much quicker than expected, that really is not a problem to solve, is it?

My wife has called me at work to tell me things won't start and we find out she has forgotten to turn on the key!
Yes. The first step is to see what the camera shows me.

After that I hope to be more informed as to the next step. If I am lucky and find that there is no real problem, just that the waste is draining faster than I thought and we are filling more quickly than I thought, then I will be a bit embarrassed for posting, but also very happy to save the time and money.
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Old 03-03-2021, 05:24 PM   #17
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Hi AJ,
All these suggestions sound good. However, Before I went to all that trouble I would take a short cut. This is a common problem. Toilet paper gets hung on the sensors inside the black water tank. I would pore a box of Rid-X in the toilet and fill the tank. Move the coach back and forth to mix the Rid-X. Let it sit for a week or two. Then Drain. This normally works.
Good Luck.
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Old 03-03-2021, 06:07 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 69skylark View Post
Hi AJ,
All these suggestions sound good. However, Before I went to all that trouble I would take a short cut. This is a common problem. Toilet paper gets hung on the sensors inside the black water tank. I would pore a box of Rid-X in the toilet and fill the tank. Move the coach back and forth to mix the Rid-X. Let it sit for a week or two. Then Drain. This normally works.
Good Luck.
Gene
Since this is a 2018 model, I would assume it would not have the intank probes as mentioned but use the electronic pads that only stick on the outside of the tank using density to do the math, rather than closing a circuit.
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Old 03-03-2021, 06:09 PM   #19
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If you need a place to repeatedly dump and rinse, after you get camera and other supplies, just go spend a night at a local campground with full hook up.
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Old 03-03-2021, 06:41 PM   #20
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Fill and drain!
Use a spray stick ( don’t know why it’s called but a pipe with a sprayer on the end of a garden hose or adapt to your shower hose.
Use the hose spray type of attachment on the drain.
Water drain, water drain etc tank drains best when full . On short trips fill only half full so water spalashes around... to clean inside!
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