Replacing 3 way fridge with compressor fridge

[BobC]

Originally Posted by BobC

I don't know about the previous ones, but the Winnebago parts catalog list my current one as part # 121569-05-01A which cross reference to an N822, which is listed at 7.5 cu ft.

I do know that my two others were about the same size if not a little, but not much, smaller.

[DavidM]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

Yep, maybe just as I suspected .... it's the larger cubic footage propane RV refrigerators that are disappointing their owners.

Maybe that's another reason to "stay small" in overall RV size for the most flexibility when one wants to drycamp conveniently in the largest variety of situations.

That makes sense. The Dometic cooling "guts" is probably the same in all full height units from 6 cu ft up to 10 or more. They work fine for 6 cu ft. but the bigger the fridge the more heat is lost and that puts too much load on the Dometic guts for a 10 cu ft or bigger fridge, so performance worsens.

David

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by DavidM

That makes sense. The Dometic cooling "guts" is probably the same in all full height units from 6 cu ft up to 10 or more. They work fine for 6 cu ft. but the bigger the fridge the more heat is lost and that puts too much load on the Dometic guts for a 10 cu ft or bigger fridge, so performance worsens.

David

..... And maybe danger of a refrigerator fire worsens, too, as a large size propane refrigerator operates with a longer and longer heating cycle struggling to maintain temperatues inside the box.

[DavidM]

I have looked carefully at the solenoid, burner, heating tube, etc on my 6 cu ft Dometic fridge and I am satisfied that the fire danger is nil. There is probably more fire danger in the propane fired furnace or water heater on my RV.

David

[AJMike]

Obviously a decision about what to do about an RV fridge depends upon the needs and wants to the user but personally I don't think I would ever want to return to a 2-way or 3-way fridge.

Our 2018 Winnebago Fuse came with a Norcold 2 door DC refrigerator (DC0061) and we love it. We live in southern Arizona so the summers are very hot and the refrigerator does a much better job of keeping things cold than any of our propane fridges ever did. We have 3 100 watt solar panels on the roof and that pretty much took care of our electric needs with our OEM batteries provided it was sunny and the sun was high in the sky. Winter was more of an issue, but the fridge ran less in the winter than in the summer anyway. We always try to level our RV, but not because of the fridge which does not need to be level to run properly.

We ended up replacing our OEM batteries and now have 2 100AH Lithium batteries but that was not because of our electric fridge, but because we sometimes camp for several days where there is little or no sun for solar and we wanted sufficient power to get us through that time.

Now our ice cream stays cold and firm, our frozen food stays frozen and the refrigerator stays cold. We keep temperatures sensors in both and generally the freezer is in the 5-10 degree range and the refrigerator in the 32-39 degree range.

[Phil G.]

Originally Posted by AJMike

Obviously a decision about what to do about an RV fridge depends upon the needs and wants to the user but personally I don't think I would ever want to return to a 2-way or 3-way fridge.

Our 2018 Winnebago Fuse came with a Norcold 2 door DC refrigerator (DC0061) and we love it. We live in southern Arizona so the summers are very hot and the refrigerator does a much better job of keeping things cold than any of our propane fridges ever did. We have 3 100 watt solar panels on the roof and that pretty much took care of our electric needs with our OEM batteries provided it was sunny and the sun was high in the sky. Winter was more of an issue, but the fridge ran less in the winter than in the summer anyway. We always try to level our RV, but not because of the fridge which does not need to be level to run properly.

We ended up replacing our OEM batteries and now have 2 100AH Lithium batteries but that was not because of our electric fridge, but because we sometimes camp for several days where there is little or no sun for solar and we wanted sufficient power to get us through that time.

Now our ice cream stays cold and firm, our frozen food stays frozen and the refrigerator stays cold. We keep temperatures sensors in both and generally the freezer is in the 5-10 degree range and the refrigerator in the 32-39 degree range.

I'm curious as to how your two 12V 100AH Lithium Group 27 batteries provide more capacity than would two 12V 125AH AGM Group 31 batteries?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

I'm curious as to how your two 12V 100AH Lithium Group 27 batteries provide more capacity than would two 12V 125AH AGM Group 31 batteries?

Lithium batteries pretty much supply full voltage for their entire AH capacity while AGM and conventional flooded batteries are pretty much useless once they're down to half of their capacity, due to the voltage drop and can be damaged if discharged further. This is why your cordless lithium powered electric drill just stops without slowing down first while your old NiCad powered drill got slower and slower before stopping.

This means that two 12V 100AH Lithium batteries will provide close to 200AH of power while two 12C 125AH AGM batteries will only provide about .5 x 250 = 125AH.

It kind of makes you wonder how the battery industry gets away with rating the AGMs at 125AH if 50% is unusable:

https://relionbattery.com/technology...m-vs-lead-acid

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

I'm curious as to how your two 12V 100AH Lithium Group 27 batteries provide more capacity than would two 12V 125AH AGM Group 31 batteries?

Yes. What BobC wrote.

In addition the Lithium batteries recharge more quickly than wet cell or AGM batteries so the Lithiums are back to fully charge faster than would otherwise be the case.

[BobC]

They also have a big weight advantage. On the other hand, there's a big difference in the initial cost although they have a longer life so the total life cycle cost is less.

Personally, I'm intrigued by Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries but I'm not using my MH enough right now to justify the investment. I figure that, like most technology, costs will go down.

[gurroz]

Lithium upgrade is well worth the money and the prices are coming down. I recently saw a review on the SOK battery from Ray @Love Your RV on Youtube. At $650 it is worth a look. I would like to see Will Prowse review it.

[scottrose]

I replaced my Norcold N841 with a compressor unit from https://jc-refrigeration.com and run it from the inverter when stopped and the alternator when driving since it draws less than 1A (it is never turned off, even when I'm back home with nothing in it). It has been installed for over a year and 24 states and 30k miles later still generates ice and keeps everything cold, as needed...no issues. The installation using the provided videos was simple and the support was awesome as I asked a few stupid questions during the install. I would never go back to propane and/or DC again. The cost was $600 and I did the conversion myself.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by gurroz

Lithium upgrade is well worth the money and the prices are coming down. I recently saw a review on the SOK battery from Ray @Love Your RV on Youtube. At $650 it is worth a look. I would like to see Will Prowse review it.

Will Prowse has a good Youtube channel on Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, solar and related topics. He periodically does tear downs on various batteries showing the good and the bad. There are also videos on building your own batteries. Although not specifically RV targeted, there are some videos specific to RVs and much of it is universally applicable:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj...q8kmJme-5dnN0Q

You'll learn a lot if you subscribe to his Youtube channel and start watching his videos. They've done a good job of educating me.

[NeilV]

Of course the presupposes that Residential Refrigerators many of which now use an ISO-Butane or Methane Refrigerant do not also pose a fire or explosion hazard. This has over the past few years been recognized as a global problem even regarding the smaller apartment and dorm sized residential refrigerators and air conditioning units.

There have been a number of very dramatic explosions over the past year here in the US and if you dig into the owners and service manuals of these new residential refrigerators you will start seeing warnings about the minimum cubic feet or air space required in the rooms where they are installed and the safety equipment service technicians need to wear while servicing them. And yes people have been seriously injured when they explode with a few incidents of dismemberment's and fatalities with a number of folks blinded too by the fireball or plume of flame that sometimes erupts.

You might be unpleasantly surprised to see how many residential refrigerators on resilient or wooden floors have left the flooring discolored or scorched under the compressors.

[TheArthurs]

Originally Posted by BobC

I'm not overly concerned about the safety, either. There are many, many, threads on RV forums about absorption refrigerator fires, but I've never seen any statistics about the frequency or incidence of such events. From the forum posts you'd think RVs were burning up in RV parks on a daily basis. Gas stoves in RVs are probably a greater fire risk.

On the other hand, I'm taking some precautions, as I previously stated, just in case.

I often dry camp without shore power and hate running my generator so I'll stick with my Norcold. I've had two TTs and now an RV with them over the course of 15 years and they've always worked well.

BobC,
Thank you for giving me a good chuckle I immediately pictured RVs in flames everywhere. Although you didn't mean to be funny, nor am I making light of a very scary event...it just struck me at the moment. You always post such well thought out ideas.

[Journey39n]

I replaced my Norcold propane/electric cooling unit with the JC Refrigeration cooling unit last November. This was a bigger unit than yours I suspect, as mine is a four door unit. The process was easy, took about 3 hours with two old guys with no experience doing it.

Consistent cold, consistent hard ice cream, uses 66 watts of power when running. Depending upon outside temps, duty cycle seems to be about 50%. Works fine at normal temps, and also over 110 degrees in AZ this last spring. I have the 120v version, a 12v version is also available. I plug into my 1000w MSW inverter when travelling or boondocking.

I installed it because a pin-hole leak in the coils started hissing and spewing yellow gunk & gas. Glad I was not on propane at the time.

[HappiHenri]

Stay with the Norcold.

We have been full timing for years in our 2005 38' Class A, using the OE Norcold refrigerator onto which we installed the ARP protection w/aux cooling fan. Have had no issues with it, and love the ability of our Norcold to run on very little propane very reliably.

I just saw a Youtube video of an experienced RV custom shop which said it will no longer replace absorption refrigerators with residential because they had too many fail due to vibration. They claimed that residential refrigerators were just never designed for rough RV use, and they had too many fail. Also, the cost was a lot higher to owners to do that due to the cost of adding batteries and better inverters - many finding that the had to run the generator all the time just to support the refrigerator.

From our experience the ability of the refrigerator to run on propane or 120v has been invaluable Ours runs on propane most of the time and we just do not have to worry about it. When boondocking (much of the time) it is nice to have the secondary propane energy supply.

One suggestion for your Norcold - We found with ours that the freezer never got extremely cold, and it frosted up a lot - particularly in the East in summer humid weather. But after studying the design of the freezer door it was apparent that it was latched by just a small plastic latch in the lower LH corner - and it was not really pulling the door fully closed. So I added a small post in the center of the LH side- by the edge of the door, onto which I installed a thumb screw & washer. That helped to fully seal the door and the difference was amazing. The freezer now gets really cold and there is almost no frost buildup at all.

But back to your question - while I see the initial appeal of the residential fridge they take a lot of power to run - on electricity only - and are apparently not built for RV use. But for us the ability of ours to run on propane has been amazing and we would never switch.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by HappiHenri

I just saw a Youtube video of an experienced RV custom shop which said it will no longer replace absorption refrigerators with residential because they had too many fail due to vibration. They claimed that residential refrigerators were just never designed for rough RV use, and they had too many fail.

I've seen folks with RV fridges trot this one out all the time like everyone with a residential fridge in their RV have seen them fail.

I have seen reports from 6 o 7 years ago about some brands that had issues. And in many if not all cases the fridges were being run on MSW inverters and had electronics issues.

But I must say I've seen hundreds of reports of RV fridges that just stop cooling and cost 3 times as much to replace as the Residential fridge. And, this doesn't count the couple dozen real world reports I've seen of RV fires started by fridges that totally destroyed the RVs.

In reading dozens of these kinds of Resi/RV threads here and on irv2.com and other forums the responses are pretty much the same. Folks that have never had a Residential fridge in their RV are staunch Absorption Fridge fans and people that have had a Residential Fridge in their RV would NEVER go back to an Absorption fridge.

Since one group has never had a Residential fridge in their RV they are speaking from zero experience, it's just their opinion Ok, but those of us with Residential fridges have pretty much all had direct experience with both styles. Yet, that other group somehow thinks they know better. Why is that?

[NeilV]

I've had both residential and absorption refrigerators in my RV's over the years and was using residential refrigerators in RV's as far back as the 1960's so I have many years of experience using both.

Residential refrigerators in RV service after long term use over those years actually did not hold up as well as the absorption units. I have never had an absorption refrigerator fail over the past 55 years but have had a number of residential refrigerators fail in RV use over that time period. My current absorption refrigerator has been working reliably and safely now for 19 years.

I have never had an absorption refrigerator scorch the floor underneath it in 55 years but have had 4 residential refrigerators of my own do so and have found numerous others scorched in customers homes while maintaining apartments and as a contractor doing kitchen renovations. I have also had a Dorm Sized residential fridge melt a counter top in one RV and another de-laminate one over that time frame.

Now that residential refrigerators are using ISO-Butaine, Propane and Methane based refrigerants the incidents of residential refrigerator explosions is increasing. Fire investigators are just starting to recognize kitchen fires they thought were from other sources are being caused by the new residential refrigerators many of which are exploding and catching fire after only a few months in operation. Add to that new guidelines on the minimum square footage of room size where a residential refrigerator filled with the current gases should be used and you will find that some/many RV's simply are not large enough to meet those requirements.

This is not based on how many ice cubes per hour they make or how many gallons of ice cream they can keep at -6 degrees Fahrenheit even though I have never had a bag of ice or a box of popsicles melt in a clean and well maintained absorption refrigerator.

Yes there are some poorly installed or maintained absorption refrigerator causing fires each year however there are also over 50,000 residential electrical fires causing around 500 deaths, about 1,500 injuries and over 1.5 billion dollars in losses every year yet we do not see the same level of fear, angst and consternation over this much greater threat as we do over RV Absorption refrigerators.

Bottom line after 55 years experience using both I am inclined to stay with the absorption refrigerator in the RV and will be following the best practice of regularly opening the outside access panel to perform routing inspection, housekeeping and maintenance to ensure continued safe operation. I will not be pulling a working unit that has been properly installed and been well maintained just based on internet hysteria. Based on the hysteria there should be no RV's over a few years old that have not been burnt up by their absorption refrigerators left around however what we do see is many, many thousands of them still safely operating after many decades of use.

[Phil G.]

Well stated above, Neil!

The Norcold propane refrig in our 2005 Class C (purchased new in 2006) has been flawless so far on maintaining temperatures in all kinds of outside air temperatures. We turn it on when we leave home, leave it on going down the road, and turn it off at the end of the trip when we get home.

HOWEVER ... it's only a 6.3 cubic foot refrigerator, we camp with the motorhome level, and Winnebago installed it correctly. These three things probably contribute to it still working well after 14 years.

No way would I want a compressor refrigerator sucking battery power 24/7 whenever we're drycamping in the shade.

[creativepart]

Well Neil, you've got me. I'm only 70 years old so I don't have 55 years experience with Residential fridges in an RV. I didn't have an RV when I was 15.

If residential fridges are that sensitive to being vibrated by a moving vehicle how can they be shipped all over the world in various kinds of utility vehicles?

Regardless, the market has spoken pretty loudly on this matter as a majority of new motorhomes are being produced with residential fridges.