Lithium-ion battery yes or no

[Winterbagoal]

For those (like me) that aren't terribly familiar with "supercapacitors", I did a little searching and found what I believe to be a layman's version (supercapcitors for dummies?) website that explains what they are, and the differences between them, and more conventional and widely used electrical storage media (12V DC batteries, et al).

https://www.explainthatstuff.com/how...tors-work.html

[AJMike]

Brand new and better?

If my standard luck holds out the RV version of these will sell for about $2.95 installed, probably tomorrow, since I just spent more than $2000 on BB batteries. Fits right in with what my investment strategy has turned out to be - buy high, sell low.

[Winterbagoal]

I don't think they're designed to used for slow steady rates of discharge, so I doubt they'll be replacing the existing RV battery technology in the forseeable future.

[Tony65]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

I don't think they're designed to used for slow steady rates of discharge, so I doubt they'll be replacing the existing RV battery technology in the forseeable future.

Error, those of Kilowatt Labs are designed precisely with the opposite criterion to those of Maxwell, that is, to guarantee a slow and constant delivery.

[Winterbagoal]

Originally Posted by Tony65

Error, those of Kilowatt Labs are designed precisely with the opposite criterion to those of Maxwell, that is, to guarantee a slow and constant delivery.

In that case, the "supercapacitor" becomes smoke and mirrors, because that requires electrolyte and huge plates to function in that manner, and they can't store enough energy in that form either, to compete with more conventional storage methods, like FLA and lithium. Lastly, if it was possible to do it on a commercial scale, someone would have already done it, as the technology has been around since the 1950s. For RV applications.

[creativepart]

I used Google Translate to read that page in Italian. Those look great. Fantastic specs.

Couple of problems... they are 5 feet long (3" wide and 4.6" Tall) They'd never fit anywhere unless something was made special for them. One of them is only 83aH but they are able to be paralleled. Four of them would provide 332aH.

So, they are oddly shaped to not fit and their amp hour rating is too low for such a high price. You would get similar benefits with more amp hours for less money with Battleborn LiPo batteries. Four of these would cost $5,990 USD and provide 332aH while four Battleborns would cost $3,800 and provide 400aH.

Thanks for posting about those Tony, but I'm afraid you proved that the LiFePo4 based batteries are the better choice.

Here's a screen shot of the translated page - impressive specs. Maybe one day they'll make them drop in compatible.

[Winterbagoal]

Like I said, smoke and mirrors.

[SLOweather]

Besides the size, there's the weight, at 50 lbs per capacitor, it works out to 19.8 watt hours per lb, where a BB is 34.5 watt hours per lb. That was one of the advantages of my 2 BBs, eliminating some of the dead lead weight.


Is there any note on their self discharge rate?

[SLOweather]

By another metric, the supercapacitors store 1 AH in 10 in^3 volume, BBs store 1 AH in 7.74 in^3 volume. Interestingly, the 2 are fairly close in volume. The supecapacitor is 0.48 ft^3, while the Battle Born is 0.45 ft^3.

And. lastly, reducing Creativepart's numbers from above, the supercapacitor costs$18/AH, while Battle Borns cost a little more than half, at, $9.51/AH.

By any and all of the metrics, I'll keep my Battle Borns... at least until the supercapacitor substantially beats them in most metrics.

[jcurtisis]

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

Lithium ion, NO.
Lithium iron phosphate, YES.
There are two schools of thought on what other gadgets you might need if you go the LiFePO4 route.
I opted for KISS.
I added a Progressive Industries Charge Wizard Pendant to my OEM PD9245, so I could bump up the charge rate while plugged in to shore power, just to give them a little boost, since you're paying for it anyway.
I also have a factory installed Zamp ZS-30A solar charge controller that helps top them off when the sun is shining, and it has a "Lithium" charge algorithm setting (the AGM setting does the same things as the Lithium setting) that knows when to boost the charging voltage. I caught it doing that just yesterday, as a matter of fact, on a bright sunny afternoon.
My 3rd charging source is my Mercedes-Benz 220 A alternator. There's enough smarts built into the 2 Relion RB100-LT batteries, that it will cut off all charging sources when it decides they are full, so I didn't bother adding anything else. I accepted the risk of burning out an alternator, because of that.
So far, like AJMike, I'm pretty pleased with the Relion battery performance, and recently spent most of a 4,000 mile trip to Texas, via South Carolina, off grid using just 12V DC power from my new batteries to power all my other stuff. Like the compressor fridge, water pump, lights, Truma water heater circuitry, TVs, USB charging ports, etc., etc.......
Set it and forget it, as the info-mercials used to say.

2018 ND: I agree with Winterbagoal; only difference is I went with Battle Borne batteries. No problems since January 2020. I do recommend you get a battery monitoring system as well. I went cheaper: the Aili Unit is ~$45; the Victron is also popular at ~$200 (but has Bluetooth to smartphone display capability).

[Kbwitt]

Is it common practice for people to hyjack and take over posts on this forum.? It sure makes it hard when your trying to reasearch and read all these personal posts, some realy ramble on.

[AJMike]

One thing about the LiFePO4 batteries that continues to puzzle me is the charging. The battery is supposed to charge at approx 14.2 volts but the Zamp solar on my system only says that it is apply 13.4 volts. Similarly the shore power/generator charger only applies 13.4 volts or so. Yes, the pendant boosts that to 14.4 for about 4 hours but then drops back to 13.4 again.

So my question is - what does applying only 13.4 volts to a battery that should be charged to 14.2 volts do? Are the batteries really fully charged when they are marked as "full", but only at 13.4 volts? Does the lower charge damage the batteries in any way? Or does it not matter?

[thataway4]

I am sold on Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries, and have been using them for 2 years. They float at a higher voltage than the AGM/FLA, I don't believe that you are getting the full charge capacity out of the batteries unless you are using a charge properly profiled for the LiFePO4 battery. They will. work with a lower charge profile. To get the most of them you do really need to use a battery monitor--I choose the Victron 702 (712 is better with the cell phone and ability to do more accurate profiling). I also use a Victron 2000 watt PSW inverter/80 amp battery charger. The one advantage that many are not using is the ability for a quick charge using the generator. (Not applicable if you are using enough solar--but maybe the carbon foam is a better $$ choice then??).

The issue with the big alternators is not just voltage output but also over heating the 200 amp alternator (Such as I have on my Via with a Mercedes chassis.). The battery to battery charger (Sterling 30 or 60 amp) is the best for charing, but manual cut out works, or the Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Isolation Manager Li-BIM225.

I choose Battle Born because I was impressed with the battery construction and the knowledge of their staff. For example when I had an issue with the Victron inverter/charger, they put me directly in touch with the tech in the US who they would have consulted, rather than trying to solve a problem which was over their capability.

There is another choice that is between the two in price: Firefly Carbon Foam batteries. A group 31 size rated at 116 amp hours (20 hr discharge rate) is $512 currently, about half the price of LiFePO4. They are as heavy as lead acid or AGM, but do allow the deep discharge of over 90%, can be left partly discharged and have the same rapid charge and discharge characteristics as the LiF3PO4 batteries.

The alternatives to FLA are expensive and far more complex technology. If you have the need--basically do a lot of off the grid, and are going to hold onto the RV for a number of years, then it is worthwhile. For the average RVer--probably not the Best Buy.

[Kbwitt]

AJ Mike ( does AJ stand for Apache Junction we be neighbors if so).Thank You for your info on the charging. My understanding is there is built in technology that will not let you draw them down to a too low of charge state. When it goes from 100 to zero there is a reserve being held to protect the cell. I believe the 13.4 is the amount going in but it will keep charging to the full amount just not quite as fast. I am having the 702 monitor installed so I should know if fully charged. The big thing with the monitor is I will know how soon I will need to start generator to recharge. I do a lot of disperse camping have an on board 7,500 quite generator but still do not want to run late or early in the day.
Once it's all hooked up and I get better knowledge I will repost. I am now looking for an installer for June 1st who has good knowledge and can gover it all with me. Also explain the Isolated they will be installing.

[Kbwitt]

Thataway, Thanks for great info. If I learn anything from my installers I will pass it on. My inverter/charger has several settings no lithium but AGM and the guys at BB told me it would work. Now they were wanting to sell me a system so never said or did I ask if it will be a full or as fast as possible charge. The guy I talked to though seemed very up front and did say I would need to buy the Libim225 Battery Isolation mngr.
Thanks Kenn

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by thataway4

I don't believe that you are getting the full charge capacity out of the batteries unless you are using a charge properly profiled for the LiFePO4 battery. They will. work with a lower charge profile. To get the most of them you do really need to use a battery monitor--I choose the Victron 702 (712 is better with the cell phone and ability to do more accurate profiling).

I am using the Zamp Solar Controller and it is set for LiFePO4 and that should be the right profile for Lithium-iron-phosphate batteries. Still it only shows 13.4 volts when charging.

I do have the Victron 712 and keep an eye on the smartphone display when we are on the road.

Originally Posted by thataway4

The issue with the big alternators is not just voltage output but also over heating the 200 amp alternator (Such as I have on my Via with a Mercedes chassis.). The battery to battery charger (Sterling 30 or 60 amp) is the best for charing, but manual cut out works, or the Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Isolation Manager Li-BIM22.

I have a Renogy 40 amp DC-DC charger installed so the output from the alternator (the one in our Fuse is rated at 210 amps) is kept within limits. I chose it over the BIM because it is supposed to be newer technology and I would think it would be better than just a constant interruption of the alternator output from the BIM. But then again I am hardly an expert on the subject.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Kbwitt

AJ Mike ( does AJ stand for Apache Junction we be neighbors if so).

Yes. AJ is for Apache Junction. We used to live in Mesa but moved further east some years ago.

Originally Posted by Kbwitt

I believe the 13.4 is the amount going in but it will keep charging to the full amount just not quite as fast.

You can not charge a 14.4 volt battery up to 14.4 volts with a 13.4 volt input. The charging device voltage has to be higher than the receiving device voltage or it will not charge. At least that is the theory. Something like a transformer would be required to boost the voltage, so it would not involve just taking longer. It just should not be able to charge to that higher voltage.

Originally Posted by Kbwitt

Once it's all hooked up and I get better knowledge I will repost. I am now looking for an installer for June 1st who has good knowledge and can gover it all with me. Also explain the Isolated they will be installing.

Battle Born sent me the names of 2 installers in this area and I chose one of those to do the installation. If you check with BB they will send you the names of people they consider to be knowledgeable enough to do the work with their batteries or, if you wish, I can sent you the information they gave me.

One of those installers is now in Prescott to get away from the heat but the other runs a shop in AJ and they should still be here. The guy who did the work on my RV did a great job at a very reasonable price and listened to what I wanted to have done. I was pleased enough to plan on having him also replace the Progressive Dynamics charger with the Lithium version and, perhaps, to install a larger inverter to go with the 200 AH batteries. Perhaps as I am not sure that we would actually need a larger inverter.

Just PM me if you want that information.

[thataway4]

From Battle Born's web site:

resting voltage of a fully charged Battle Born Battery is 13.5 to 13.6

The best charging voltage is:

bulk and absorption voltage of 14.4V.

A LiFePO4 single cell fully charged will be about 3.5 volts x 4 =14 volts (mine at rest are 13.8 volts). The discharge curve is almost flat at 3.3 volts x 4 = 13.2 volts until it is about 90% discharged when it has dropped to 12.8 volts (same as fully charged AGM). The last 10% is a steep curve to 10.8 volts where it is essentially dead--the BMS should stop the discharge before then. So you don't really have the full 100% capacity of the battery, and I never discharge mine more than 90%. Looking at those numbers, it becomes apparent that a charging voltage of 13.4 is just not going to charge the battery.

I agree that the battery to battery charger is a better method than a device which interrupts the current. Yes an AGM charging profile is similar to the LiFePO4. I don't have my notes in the house, but I set the Sterling Battery to Battery charger slightly differently than the AGM curve. The Sterling battery to battery charger. allows you to set bulk and adsorption voltages, current and times as appropriate.

Aside from the heavy cables necessary for high currents there is the necessity for each wire which carries load (charging or discharging) has to be fused on both ends. This is very important from a safety issue.

[WolfgangS]

I built my own LiFePo4 battery back with a BMS so it's roughly the same as Battle Born back for half the cost. I enjoy doing things like this so for me it was fun for others I'd say buy the Battle Born. The Lithium Iron batteries are safe and long term cost less to own than AGM or regular lead acid. The light weight, long life and ability to discharge almost to zero without damage (versus 50% for lead acid) make up for their high cost. Note, you may need to upgrade your converter and check out to see if your alternator can handle charging (there are a number of ways to handle that including just disconnecting your battery from that means of charging).

[BobC]

Originally Posted by WolfgangS

I built my own LiFePo4 battery back with a BMS so it's roughly the same as Battle Born back for half the cost. I enjoy doing things like this so for me it was fun for others I'd say buy the Battle Born. The Lithium Iron batteries are safe and long term cost less to own than AGM or regular lead acid. The light weight, long life and ability to discharge almost to zero without damage (versus 50% for lead acid) make up for their high cost. Note, you may need to upgrade your converter and check out to see if your alternator can handle charging (there are a number of ways to handle that including just disconnecting your battery from that means of charging).

A good site for learning about this is Will Prowse's Youtube channel (I mentioned one of his videos in post #4):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj...q8kmJme-5dnN0Q