Lithium-ion battery yes or no

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Kbwitt

I ordered 3 BB batteries BB told me to put my charger on AGM setting and to install a li- bim 225 lithium battery Isolation Manager. That everything will work great.

That's odd because they told me to put my solar charger on LiFePO4 (which is what the BB batteries are) and to use a Sterling DC-DC charger. They said that the BIM would work but that it was old technology and the charger was much better.

My guess is there is more profit in the charger than in the BIM. And perhaps different tech people give different recommendations?

[Winterbagoal]

"waiter, cheque please"

[Tony65]

Originally Posted by HappiHenri

Tony65 - I do not know much about the capacitors you refer to, but you shouldn't make untrue statements about Lithium batteries being so unsafe. The LiFePO4 batteries which Battle Born, and a number of other battery manufacturers, offer have been proven to very safe technology - for many years.

Also - could you please provides links about the capacitors you promote - so I can learn moire about this technology, where they can be purchased, how much they cost, etc.
Thanks

If you like lithium batteries you are free to keep them, in my opinion supercapacitors are a safer and longer lasting investment.

I've put enough links, if you want more information look for them.

I don't sell capacitors.

[Allairea67]

I am completely confused and lost! I just want to acquire a Lithium LiFePo4 100ah and install it on my Micro Winnie 2108ds. Is the power station is compatible (is the battery charger configurable)? Is there any problem with my TV alternator? In fact, If I have to change something I will use a conventional battery. I like plug and play things. Thank you very much.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by Allairea67

I am completely confused and lost! I just want to acquire a Lithium LiFePo4 100ah and install it on my Micro Winnie 2108ds. Is the power station is compatible (is the battery charger configurable)? Is there any problem with my TV alternator? In fact, If I have to change something I will use a conventional battery. I like plug and play things. Thank you very much.

We have a WFCO Charger/converter n our 2018 Intent. I spoke with the folks at WFCO and they said that their converter will work with FLA, AGM, or lithium batteries but Lithium batteries won’t fully charge with their unit even though it will work.
They make a special plug and play component that will be exclusive to lithium batteries. The charging profile is a little different because it drops the float charge which is unnecessary for lithium batteries. It also boosts the bulk charge rate from 13.6 V to 14.6 V for lithium batteries as that is what they like to reach for state of charge.

Swapping that part out took me a half an hour and there’s only five wires to be need to be swapped out pretty easy and well worth it in my opinion.

[Marine359]

Originally Posted by Allairea67

I am completely confused and lost! I just want to acquire a Lithium LiFePo4 100ah and install it on my Micro Winnie 2108ds. Is the power station is compatible (is the battery charger configurable)? Is there any problem with my TV alternator? In fact, If I have to change something I will use a conventional battery. I like plug and play things. Thank you very much.

The nice thing about LiFePo4 is that you can mount them in the pass thru of your 2108 without any major safety concerns. You can also put AGMs in your pass thru, but they need to be vented. You have to consider the cost per useable amp hour. AGMs have 50% useable Amp hours. LifFePo4 has 90% useable amp hours. So although AGM cost less, their cost per useable amp hour is not a great advantage. Also consider that LiFePo4 gives you 3,000 or more charge cycles vrs 500-800 cycles for AGM. So if you plan to own your RV more than a couple of years, LiFePo4 pencils out cheaper. If you’re not sure, go with AGM.

LiFePo4 will also accept a higher charge amperage than AGM, meaning you can charge up your batteries twice as fast. If you go with LiFePo4, you will need to budget for at suitable Charger. Since a really good charger, plus the cost of a transfer switch is almost as much as a smart inverter/charger, we chose to go with a good 2000w inverter/charger. Victron and Xantrex have good products for this, but the inverter will cost as much as the battery.

There’s no problem with your TV alternator. It delivers 12v charging through your 7 pin connector under normal wiring conditions (limited by the stock wiring and voltage drop of your tv) If you have solar, you’d be getting a similar charge amperage.

[Elkman]

With the newer solar charge controllers and inverter chargers the profiles for lithium phosphate battery charging is ready to set and no need to trick the system. With an older inverter it would be one reason to consider upgrading to a newer one and one providing more power to the RV.

The built-in battery management circuitry with the lithium-phosphate battery packs will shut down charging when the batteries are too cold and so no damage is going to occur with ongoing below freezing temperatures. I would only need a couple of hours during the day with the temperatures above freezing to bring the two batteries back to 100% SOC.

When deciding on the lithium-phospate with maximum capacity (Lithionics) or ones that can be charged in very low temperatures (Relion LT) I opted for the higher capacity batteries. I doubt that where we go the number of days where it is below freezing all day and all night is extremely rare and so nothing to worry about.

With our Navion the factory lead acid were are 50% SOC after two days of running the DC fridge and it took nearly 4 hours of generator run time plus solar to bring them back to a full charge. After I replaced the lead acid with the Lithiounics the time to recharge them after two days of running the fridge was less and 1 hour. There is a diesel fuel cost to run the generator 3-4 times as long with the AGM type of battery that should be factored into the total cost for using them.

I have only found 12V AGM "marine" type batteries and to get a true deep cycle battery I would need to go with 6 volt ones and is a cell in one of the batteries failed I would be in trouble. A marine battery is designed to start a boat engine and to run low draw electronics equipment or possibly a small trolling motor and not to support the load of an inverter supply current to a microwave oven or induction burner or DC fridge/freezer.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Marine359

You can also put AGMs in your pass thru, but they need to be vented.

AGMs are sealed batteries and I thought they did not need venting. Why would you need to vent them? Not being argumentative, just trying to understand.

Originally Posted by Marine359

If you go with LiFePo4, you will need to budget for at suitable Charger. Since a really good charger, plus the cost of a transfer switch is almost as much as a smart inverter/charger, we chose to go with a good 2000w inverter/charger.

I added 2 100AH Lithium batteries and a Victron DC-DC Charger. The cost for the batteries was about $1900 and the cost for the Victron was about $250. The cost for a Renogy DC-DC Charger is even less. As far as I know there is no need for me to install anything else to take care of the battery replacement and I just use the existing transfer switch, which has been no problem.

What am I missing here?

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Elkman

With our Navion the factory lead acid were are 50% SOC after two days of running the DC fridge and it took nearly 4 hours of generator run time plus solar to bring them back to a full charge. After I replaced the lead acid with the Lithiounics the time to recharge them after two days of running the fridge was less and 1 hour. There is a diesel fuel cost to run the generator 3-4 times as long with the AGM type of battery that should be factored into the total cost for using them.

I would have thought that in California the sun would be enough to charge the Lithium batteries back up, at least in the Summer. Is that not right? It generally is for us in the late Spring, Summer and early Fall, although we have to run our generator in the Winter because the sun is loo low in the sky to provide enough power to fully recharge our Lithium batteries.

Of course we have 400 watts of solar, but in the Summer we often get fully recharged by 1 pm or so.

Originally Posted by Elkman

There is a diesel fuel cost to run the generator 3-4 times as long with the AGM type of battery that should be factored into the total cost for using them.

Interesting. I did not know that the Navions came with a diesel generator. Our diesel Fuse came with an LP generator and I thought that all of the newer Winnebago Cs came that way. Or was your diesel generator and upgrade?

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by AJMike

AGMs are sealed batteries and I thought they did not need venting. Why would you need to vent them? Not being argumentative, just trying to understand.

Mike, AGMs are not totally sealed and do have some internal venting. They do need to be installed in a ventilated area. They don’t off-gas as much as FLA batteries but that doesn’t mean the don’t off-gas at all.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Mike, AGMs are not totally sealed and do have some internal venting. They do need to be installed in a ventilated area. They don’t off-gas as much as FLA batteries but that doesn’t mean the don’t off-gas at all.

Thanks. I did not know that, so I learned something today. Not a bad thing.

[Marine359]

Mike,
I’m no expert, but I do know that AGM batteries produce hydrogen gas when charging. The gas is captured in the glass mat (AGM= absorptive glass mat). If overcharged, or charged at too high an amperage, they can outgas. It’s why the RVIA standard requires venting for AGM. You may want to check out this article: https://rvnerds.com/2017/11/01/elect...t-need-venting.
I don’t have a motorized rig like you, so I don’t see the need for a dc/dc charger. And my trailer did not have a transfer switch, or a charger that could handle LiFePo4. So it made perfect sense for me to install a quality inverter charger that could do both jobs.

[ottojf]

Originally Posted by Wyatt

Like you, we don’t plan on doing a lot off the grid, so when our world opens up again, I’m installing these AGM’s.

https://lifelinebatteries.com/

I would like to talk to you> We are taking delivery on 2018 Intent 26M on Monday. I need some expertise on a few things.
Could you contact me at [email protected] ?

[Elkman]

Hours of daylight depends on the time of year and on the latitude. At 36 degrees north latitiude in October the hours of direct sun on the panels is about 5 hours. If I was at the equator it would be 12 hours of sunlight 12 months of the year which is quite a dfference.

The 5 hours of sunlight was not enough to recharge the factory flooded lead acid batteries while running the DC only fridge. By Day 3 I needed to run the generator as the batteries were falling below 50% SOC. Replacing the two batteries with lithium phosphate ones made a great deal of difference as these batteries can accept more charge current from the solar charge controller. No a 100% solution with the factory 200W solar installation but a big improvement. I needed to run the generator a fourth as long to bring the lithium phosphate batteries to 95% SOC as with the lead acid batteries.A also added an additional 280W of solar on the RV to be able to rely less on the generator.

With a 3-way fridge that could run off the propane it would be a very different situation but one does not get to make that choice but rather one accepts what the manufacturer decides to provide with its RVs.

[Wyatt]

That was an old post. I since abandoned the AGM and went with lithium, at, I might add, a considerable expense.
I did a lot of testing, and my calculations, at the rate we burn through electricity, would mean 4 AGM batts.
That’s 240# of weight I can’t afford in a 16k chassis.
So I went with four lithium Battle Born batteries, at half the weight, and factoring in the discharge floor, twice the power,.

[christmas]

Great post. I have a 2016 winnebago view g and want to swap out lead for lithium and was told to install a dc/dc controller/charge to avoid burning up the alternator. You mentioned you didn't do this as to the smarts of your lithium batteries? Curious if you could expound or if you have any issues since. Would had to burn up my alternator!

[christmas]

did you also add a dc/dc controler/charger to avoid burning out the coaches alternator? I have a View and was told to add the dc/dc controller to avoid issues...thx

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by christmas

did you also add a dc/dc controler/charger to avoid burning out the coaches alternator? I have a View and was told to add the dc/dc controller to avoid issues...thx

I don't know who your question was directed to, and I am no expert on this issue, but I can try to address your concern.

First, the reason there is a concern is that Lithium batteries, unlike the wet cells, can take a lot of charge. BB says that their batteries can absorb 100 amps and if you have multiple batteries that means even higher current. Wet cells have much more internal resistance and so the charging current for them is, by Ohm's Law, lower. V = IR or, for current, I = V/R. The higher the resistance the lower the resulting current for a fixed voltage. Thus the concern is that Lithium batteries will draw so much current from the alternator that it, the alternator, may burn itself up.

There are some people on this forum who believe that some alternators are smart enough to limit their output current regardless of the ability of the batteries to absorb that current. If they are right, and if your alternator is one of them, then you should not need to limit the alternator output. For myself, I don't know if they are right and, even if they are, I don't know if the alternator in my RV is one of the "smart" ones, so I installed a current limiting device.

There are two basic types of current limiting devices - DC-DC Charger and BIM (Battery Isolation Manager). They work in different ways.

The DC-DC Charger basically limits the output from the charger to whatever current it is designed to output and, in doing so, also limits the output from the alternator. You can buy this kind of device in a lot of locations. Personally I use the Victron OrionSmart 30 amp Isolated charger (12/12/30) and that is designed to output 30 amps, but there are a lot of other manufacturers and you can select from them and the various current outputs they produce. In addition all of these that I have seen have the ability to set the different voltage stages for a charge and some have bluetooth capability so you can observe and change the settings via a smartphone.

The BIM works in a different way. Basically it switches the connection between the alternator on and off so that the alternator outputs whatever it is called upon to output for some specified period of time and then switches the connection off dropping the alternator output down to a lower level and allowing it to cool off. In doing so it protects the alternator from getting too hot from outputting too much power for too long a period of time. I believe that this is a less expensive option than the DC-DC charger, but I do not know if it is a "better" or "worse" choice.

What is the best solution for you? I don't know. I have seen comments that a BIM is better if the alternator is a low output model and a DC-DC Charger is better if the alternator is a high output model, but I don't know if that is accurate or not and, even if it is, I don't know the definition of High Output and Low Output. I also don't know if the alternator in my RV is smart or a high or low output model and, given that I don't know, I installed the Victron 30 amp DC-DC Charger.

Whatever choice you make you need to think about how much power you want to provide to recharge your batteries. I have 2 100AH BB batteries and usually find the RV down to about 60%-70% in the morning. That means that I have to provide 60AH to 80AH during the day to fully recharge the batteries. If I am traveling that means that I need to drive 2-3 hours to fully recharge the batteries (sort of. The charging output to the batteries comes from all charging sources. Since I have 400 watts of solar [which, on a sunny day in the summer near noon, will provide as much as 25 amps] the actual charging current to the batteries is the sum of the solar output and the DC-DC charger output minus the charge being used in the coach).

That is a lot to take in, but I hope it is of some help. And if anything in this post is wrong I expect someone will correct it, and there are plenty of folks on this forum who are more expert about this than I am.

One last comment. Winnebago offers a Lithium upgrade for some of their RVs. I have been told that when they do that they install a BIM to limit the current. The fact that they bother to install a current limiting device with the Lithium upgrade says to me that they believe that something needs to be done to limit the current from the alternator and that was enough to convince me to install a device on our RV. I chose the DC-DC charger because I believed it was the safest choice in terms of insuring the safety of the alternator, but that was my belief and it may be wrong.

[Kbwitt]

No but there is a Vector I think it's called a BMS. Or BIM that switches the current between the house batteries a motor or starter batteries.

[al1florida]

That is a great informative post by AJMike.

He is right on about the lower resistance of the Lithium battery and its ability to absorb more current than the lead acid batteries.

Somethings to consider when trying to decide IF you need a DC to DC charger:

-- The length and size of the wire going from the alternator to your house batteries. All wire has some amount of resistance to that amount of resistance has to be added to the internal resistance of the lithium battery.

-- If you have 10-15 feet of #8 wire going from the alternator to the lithium batteries you are going to hard pressed to force 100amps down that wire. Longer wire or smaller wire size and you have a larger resistance so the alternator will not be putting out as much current.

-- If you have #2 wire (much larger wire than #8) then the alternator will see lower resistance and hence able to push more current to the batteries.

-- To get the alternator to push this high amount of current down, the alternator has to decide to increase the voltage to quite a bit higher than what the voltage of the lithium battery is.

-- The battery voltage to SOC (State Of Charge) is very flat in lithium batteries. It goes from 13.4V at 90% full to 13.1V at 40% full.

-- To get the high current to the lithium batteries you need to get your charging voltage up to 14.4V to 14.6V AND have your batteries down to 10% to 20% full (or a voltage of around 12.5V to 12.8V).

-- My experience has been it is unusual to have an alternator put out 14.4-14.6V. Typical is more in the 13.8V range while charging.

-- 13.8V going to a lithium battery that is 13.1V to 13.4V means you are not going to see high amounts of charging current.

My suggestion:
-- Install the lithium batteries, take the batteries down to 12.8V, less than20% full (no load voltage measurement). Now start your engine and increase the RPM's to around 1500 or so and see how much current you are getting at your battery.

BTW unless you are going to do quite a bit of dry camping or boondocking you really don't need lithium batteries. If you just dry camp overnight occasionally the lead acid batteries work just fine.

If you do dry camp or boondock, as AJMike and others do, then the lithium batteries are what you need. Especially for those who have a compressor refrigerator.

If you do dry camp or boondock then your really need a good battery monitor, such as the Victron 712 or Trimetric. Without the monitor you are flying blind as to how much battery charge you have left and just how well recharged you are getting your batteries.

The battery monitor will also be able to tell you at a glance how much current you are getting at your lithium battery while your engine is running.