Lithium-ion battery yes or no

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by BobC

I've been researching Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries for a while and they have a lot going for them. Although not the cheapest, I've never read anything negative about Battleborn.

In my own case, I'm not using my MH enough (even pre- COVID19) to justify the expense since the batteries would just be sitting in storage for most of their life. Plus my golf cart batteries are going strong and LiFePO4 batteries are only going to get less expensive and better.

Like you, we don’t plan on doing a lot off the grid, so when our world opens up again, I’m installing these AGM’s.

https://lifelinebatteries.com/

[BobC]

I just found a pretty good deal on a 110 Ah AGM true deep cycle battery at Lowe's for my van at $190 incl. shipping. A 100 Ah version is available for a little less. It's available elsewhere for the same price but Lowe's gives me a 10% veteran's discount.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Mighty-Max-...ies/1001401826

I'll be using it in my wheelchair lift equipped van as the primary power for the lift so as to not run down the starting battery. It will also serve as a house battery for a minimal van conversion project. I'm also installing a 100w solar panel.

[Tony65]

Guys, how can you still install lithium batteries?

It's old technology!

They are very expensive, very very dangerous and difficult to manage! It takes a computer to manage lithium batteries!

Now in my opinion it's time to move on to supercapacitors: they cost much less than lithium batteries, they are very safe, very light and they are managed like lead batteries.

This is the future: supercapacitors!

4 components of 1 kW each cost approximately $ 4,000, have an almost unlimited life, and can be exploited 100% without any problem and... they also recharge in no time!

Each component weighs approximately 22 kg.

What more do you want?

You can throw lithium away.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tony65

Guys, how can you still install lithium batteries?

It's old technology!

They are very expensive, very very dangerous and difficult to manage! It takes a computer to manage lithium batteries!

Now in my opinion it's time to move on to supercapacitors: they cost much less than lithium batteries, they are very safe, very light and they are managed like lead batteries.

This is the future: supercapacitors!

4 components of 1 kW each cost approximately $ 4,000, have an almost unlimited life, and can be exploited 100% without any problem and... they also recharge in no time!

Each component weighs approximately 22 kg.

What more do you want?

You can throw lithium away.

My MiSi acoustic guitar pick-up uses a much smaller supercapacitor in lieu of a battery and it works great. I wasn't aware they were available in much larger versions, how about a link?

[Tony65]

I only know one Italian company that sells them, in the USA I can't give you any indication.

In Italy they sell them in banks of 4 kW 48 Volt and in banks of 1 kW 12 Volt.

By the end of the year I would like to purchase 4 kW of it for my Ultimate Advantage.

I would also have an idea.... make an international buying group.

More we buy them, more the price drops.

This is the link: https://www.iorisparmioenergia.com/f...t-labs-it.html

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Kbwitt

I am going all out. I ordered 3 Battle Born Batteries, Precision lithium battery Isolation Manager and victron BMV 702 monitor.
I will repost in a couple of weeks after it's all installed and used for a week or longer.

GREAT!
Do yourself and all of us a favor and put your RV and Today details in your Signature so it shows on every post:

Click on "User CP" top left hand side of the page in orange
Click on "Edit Signature" on the left column menu
Enter your Year, Model, floorplan, Toad, etc
Click "Save Signature"

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by BobC

I just found a pretty good deal on a 110 Ah AGM true deep cycle battery at Lowe's for my van at $190 incl. shipping.

Bob, those are not AGM they are SLA - Sealed Lead Acid Maintenance Free batteries. Those are different from AGMs.

Sealed Batteries

This term can refer to a number of different constructions, including only a slight modification to the flooded style. In that case, even though the user does not have access to the cell compartments, the internal structure is still basically the same as a flooded battery. The only difference is that the manufacturer has ensured that a sufficient amount of acid is in the battery to sustain the chemical reaction under normal use throughout the battery warranty period. Other types of lead acid batteries are also sealed, as explained below. Very popular uses are engine starting and limited starting/deep cycle applications.

For this type of battery the typical absorption voltage range 14.2 to 14.7 volts; typical float voltage range 13.1 to 13.4 volts.

AGM Batteries

The Absorbed Glass Mat construction allows the electrolyte to be suspended in close proximity with the plates active material. In theory, this enhances both the discharge and recharge efficiency. Actually, the AGM batteries are a variant of Sealed VRLA batteries, just a more advanced design. Popular usage includes high performance engine starting, power sports, deep cycle, solar and storage batteries.

For this type of battery the typical absorption voltage range 14.4 to 15.0 volts; typical float voltage range 13.2 to 13.8 volts.

AGM batteries are common and found in many applications such as RV batteries, boat batteries, motorcycle batteries, ATV batteries, and UPS & Telecom batteries for generators.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Tony65

Look carefully, my data is all there!

Are you KBWITT? See the quote in my post.

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Tony65

Guys, how can you still install lithium batteries?

It's old technology!

They are very expensive, very very dangerous and difficult to manage! It takes a computer to manage lithium batteries!

Tony perhaps a language difference. Lithium ION batteries? That's what you are thinking of. We are talking about Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries that are drip in replacements for standard lead acid batteries. They are not at all dangerous, difficult to manage nor do they need a computer to manage.

One day supercapacitor may will be an option, but that day has not arrived yet. It's future that is not here for RV power storage solutions.

[Tony65]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Tony perhaps a language difference. Lithium ION batteries? That's what you are thinking of. We are talking about Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries that are drip in replacements for standard lead acid batteries. They are not at all dangerous, difficult to manage nor do they need a computer to manage.

One day supercapacitor may will be an option, but that day has not arrived yet. It's future that is not here for RV power storage solutions.

I speak of all lithium batteries, of any kind.

It's an already old and very expensive technology, as well as dangerous, especially Lithium-Ion.

Why do you think supercapacitors are not valid for our RVs?

[AJMike]

I am still a newbie here when it comes to Lithium house batteries and have little practical background in wiring so I would not have tried to install them myself. The installer said that replacing the AGMs that I had with the Lithiums and installing the DC-DC charger was simple, but I doubt that it would have been for me. Still, I have become a believer (I think there is a Monkee's Song in there somewhere).

Our first trip where the BB Lithium batteries were put to any real test was this week and they passed with flying colors. Where my old AGMs would have died after less than a day, given the power consumed by our compressor fridge and the small amount of solar available, the BB batteries would have lasted us for perhaps 4 days before they got really low. It was not just that there was about 3 times the power available compared to the old AGMs, but also that they seemed to charge from what little solar was available very, very quickly and after 2 days we were at more than 70% when we pulled out.

I originally thought that spending the money for the Lithium batteries, the DC-DC charger and the installation would be a waste but not any longer, and I am grateful to those who answered all of my questions on various threads.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Tony65

as well as dangerous, especially Lithium-Ion.

I have not heard of any dangerous issues involving LiFePO4 batteries. Not straight Lithium, but Lithium-iron-phosphate? In fact all I have seen is information about how safe they are. Do you have some specific information about what the dangers are? Any news articles or posts indicating that they have failed in any dangerous way?

I ask because we just had them installed and I would like to know.

[creativepart]

Tony65 has to be referring to Lithium ION and not the LiFePO batteries you've installed and under discussion here. Because LiFePO batteries are safe and not hazardous. Different chemistry than Li Ion.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by creativepart

Tony65 has to be referring to Lithium ION and not the LiFePO batteries you've installed and under discussion here. Because LiFePO batteries are safe and not hazardous. Different chemistry than Li Ion.

I think we're going around in circles and need to be careful with terminology.
I believe creativepart meant to use the term "LifePO4" which stands for "Lithium Iron Phosphate". These batteries are safe. Hopefully this article will explain things to everyone's satisfaction.

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/arti...-overview.html

[Tony65]

LifePO4 batteries are the safest lithium batteries, despite this there are cases in which they give equally serious problems.

Even a minimal accident is enough and the vehicle is completely destroyed!

For example, search in Google the Tesla cases that caught fire.

The other problem with lithium batteries in general is that there is still no safe procedure to extinguish the fires caused by them.

I don't play a $ 300,000 RV for a $ 1,000 lithium battery.

And you guys?

So then? Why do you think supercapacitors are not valid for our RVs?

[creativepart]

Originally Posted by Tony65

For example, search in Google the Tesla cases that caught fire.

No, again, totally different chemistry. Not the same. Not the same problems. Find one instance of a drop in LifePO3 battery fire.

As to supercapacitors, please point out one suitable commercially available battery using this technology for current vehicles, cars or RVs. Like maybe something sized for an RV's battery compartment, voltage, charging, etc.

PS. In English please, I'm not able to read Italian. I did take Italian lessons but dropped out by the third session.

[Winterbagoal]

No one ever reads these threads from the beginning, do they?
The lithium-ion versus lithium iron phosphate question was challenged/resolved in post #3. (by yours, truly )

[Tony65]

Originally Posted by creativepart

No, again, totally different chemistry. Not the same. Not the same problems. Find one instance of a drop in LifePO3 battery fire.

As to supercapacitors, please point out one suitable commercially available battery using this technology for current vehicles, cars or RVs. Like maybe something sized for an RV's battery compartment, voltage, charging, etc.

PS. In English please, I'm not able to read Italian. I did take Italian lessons but dropped out by the third session.

I don't know any US factories for these products.

The only one that would be there is Maxwell but it only produces supercapacitors for starting the engines, very similar to normal batteries (https://www.maxwell.com/products/esm/).

In Italy, however, there is a factory that produces 1 kW supercapacitors.

The website is what I have indicated, if you don't know Italian translate the page by Google.

Alternatively see the attached datasheet.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Tony65

For example, search in Google the Tesla cases that caught fire.

Tesla batteries are Lithium-ion. BattleBorn batteries are Lithium-iron-Phosphate. They are different battery types and you can not blame Lithium-Iron-Phosphate batteries for problems with Lithium-ion batteries.

[Tony65]

I have now discovered that the headquarters is in the USA, Kilowatt Labs, but I cannot find anyone who sells their supercapacitors online in the USA.