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Old 12-09-2022, 12:48 PM   #1
Winnie-Wise
 
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energy Management System and Inverters

This might be a silly question but is something that occupies my mind when thinking of an upgrade to my Journey.

I am looking into upgrading to LiFePO4 batteries, DC to DC charger and a Victron Multiplus 12v 3kw split phase Inverter charger.

One of the cons of this Inverter Charger are that it only provided inverted power to one leg of power and in an inverting situation the other leg is left with no power. (I think I am correct about this)

When powering off of the inverter, I am wondering how the EMS is going to handle power management.

From what I have seen in my wring diagrams, the Fridge/Converter breaker (L1) feeds to the EMS with input at two locations, Fridge, and Converter then outputs to those two outlets through the EMS. The WH power (L2) also feeds to and through the EMS and out to the WH Electric Element.

Assuming I have L1 connected to the inverter side of the MultiPlus how will the EMS behave.

My over all plan is to do one of the two following scenarios.

1. Move RCPT 1 and 2 to L1, Move Rcpt 3 to L2 and leave the existing 600 watt inverter in place. This will provide inverter power from the Multiplus to the Microwave and Rept 1, and 2. With Rcpt 3 receiving inverter power from the existing 600W inverter.


2. Move move RCPT 1 and 2 to L1, leave Rcpt 3 on L1, and leave the Microwave on L1. Remove the existing 600W inverter. This provides power from the Multiplus to all Rcpts, and the Microwave.


Thoughts? My engineering mind is going a little crazy with all of this, LOL
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Old 12-09-2022, 02:55 PM   #2
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I think the Victron Multi-Plus II is sold in two models and one is made for 50-amp RVs with two legs of input and output. This Multiplus II cost a couple of hundred dollars more than the Multiplus II with only one leg of input/output.

Quote:
Note: THE PRODUCT IS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR INTEGRATION in 50A RV APPLICATIONS. THIS MODEL INCLUDES A TWO POLE 50A AC INPUT/OUTPUT.
I'm not at all sure how the EMS sees this - My EMS has a Network cable connection to my Magnum inverter and the EMS knows when the inverter is functioning. According to the EMS systems manual it can load share with the Magnum inverter - though I've certainly not seem this actually take place. When the inverter is on that is shown in the EMS display. I doubt the Victron works the same way.

I'm a bit foggy on all of these things. The EMS is pretty mysterious to me. So, I'm not much help.
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Old 12-10-2022, 05:31 AM   #3
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Tim-

Among the diagram sets for 2007 (link here), there's one each for the 36G and the 36SG. I looked at the "110 Volt Load Center..." diagram for the 36G, and it had two sheets. I am fairly sure which one of those two apply to your coach, I'd like to know which diagram set and diagrams you're using, so I can give better advice.

A couple pictures of your load center panel and inverter subpanel, each showing the labels on the breakers, would also help.
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Old 12-10-2022, 08:45 AM   #4
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Tim-

Among the diagram sets for 2007 (link here), there's one each for the 36G and the 36SG. I looked at the "110 Volt Load Center..." diagram for the 36G, and it had two sheets. I am fairly sure which one of those two apply to your coach, I'd like to know which diagram set and diagrams you're using, so I can give better advice.

A couple pictures of your load center panel and inverter subpanel, each showing the labels on the breakers, would also help.
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Old 12-11-2022, 09:29 AM   #5
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I have posted scans of the wiring diagrams with some of my notes added. I have confirmed that the AC panel layout matches the one from the diagram, but have not traced out each wire that goes through the EMS. My ems is set up to shed in the following order 1. Water Heater, 2. AC Comp 2, 3. Fan Speed, 4. Refrigerator.


The Refrigerator is no longer in the mix because I have upgraded it to a DC Comp Model and it no longer uses AC power, however my Converter/Charger is on that same circuit.


Another thing I am trying to confirm is the order of the power in the AC panel. I am assuming based on the two main breakers that it is L1, L2, L1, L2, L1, L2.


I am 99% sure that whether I go with a Multiplus 3KW, or a Quatro 3KW, the inverter only provides AC to one leg of 120V AC. I would likely rearrange the layout of power to make sure RCPT-1 and 2, and the microwave were on the inverter leg and allow RCPT 3 to still run through the original 600A Inverter.



If I used the Quatro, which is what I am leaning towards, I could eliminate the Parallax ATS as the Quatro has a built in ATS
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Old 12-14-2022, 05:34 PM   #6
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I wonder if you're over-thinking it? Unless I am horribly mistaken, LiFePO4 batteries with EMS are a drop-in item, and you won't need the DC-DC converter... and if you throw a few more buck in the mix, you can get those batteries with built-in heating as well as on/off switch. (You need to turn them off when your rig is in storage, to save battery lifespan.)

Check with Battleborn or Renogy for expert advice.
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Old 12-14-2022, 05:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Four Seasons View Post
Unless I am horribly mistaken, LiFePO4 batteries with EMS are a drop-in item,
Unfortunately... this is not the case.

Some folks sell them as "drop in" replacements. But standard RV converter/chargers don't properly charge them when on shore power and the batteries can demand so much power from an RV's alternator that the alternator burns up trying to supply all that power.

You can just drop them in... but the results are not acceptable in the long run.
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Old 12-14-2022, 05:42 PM   #8
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Back to drawing board, I guess... LoL!
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Old 12-14-2022, 05:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creativepart View Post
I think the Victron Multi-Plus II is sold in two models and one is made for 50-amp RVs with two legs of input and output. This Multiplus II cost a couple of hundred dollars more than the Multiplus II with only one leg of input/output.



I'm not at all sure how the EMS sees this - My EMS has a Network cable connection to my Magnum inverter and the EMS knows when the inverter is functioning. According to the EMS systems manual it can load share with the Magnum inverter - though I've certainly not seem this actually take place. When the inverter is on that is shown in the EMS display. I doubt the Victron works the same way.

I'm a bit foggy on all of these things. The EMS is pretty mysterious to me. So, I'm not much help.
I have had the load share feature work on my rig several times when on 30A service. The first time I saw this happen I was very please.


About communicating with a inverter other than Magnum? I would not commit to that idea. If I recall correctly the Precision Circuits manual states specifically "Magnum Inverter". This might help the OP: https://www.precisioncircuitsinc.com...-Rev111708.pdf



Contacting them might shed more light on this type of upgrade.
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Old 12-15-2022, 05:44 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim myers View Post
This might be a silly question but is something that occupies my mind when thinking of an upgrade to my Journey.

I am looking into upgrading to LiFePO4 batteries, DC to DC charger and a Victron Multiplus 12v 3kw split phase Inverter charger.

One of the cons of this Inverter Charger are that it only provided inverted power to one leg of power and in an inverting situation the other leg is left with no power. (I think I am correct about this)

When powering off of the inverter, I am wondering how the EMS is going to handle power management.

From what I have seen in my wring diagrams, the Fridge/Converter breaker (L1) feeds to the EMS with input at two locations, Fridge, and Converter then outputs to those two outlets through the EMS. The WH power (L2) also feeds to and through the EMS and out to the WH Electric Element.

Assuming I have L1 connected to the inverter side of the MultiPlus how will the EMS behave.

My over all plan is to do one of the two following scenarios.

1. Move RCPT 1 and 2 to L1, Move Rcpt 3 to L2 and leave the existing 600 watt inverter in place. This will provide inverter power from the Multiplus to the Microwave and Rept 1, and 2. With Rcpt 3 receiving inverter power from the existing 600W inverter.


2. Move move RCPT 1 and 2 to L1, leave Rcpt 3 on L1, and leave the Microwave on L1. Remove the existing 600W inverter. This provides power from the Multiplus to all Rcpts, and the Microwave.


Thoughts? My engineering mind is going a little crazy with all of this, LOL
A second thought is to go to these folks for all your supplies and upgrade to an appropriate Magnum Inverter. There is a sale going on now. https://www.donrowe.com/
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Old 12-15-2022, 01:16 PM   #11
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I did have a conversation with Intellitec about what I am proposing. He could not tell me what would happen if I only had power on one leg of the AC System, but strongly advised against it.
His strong suggestion was to install a breaker in the main panel to feed a 3KW inverter the inverter would then feed AC power through to a sub panel with the loads I wanted to be available when inverting 12v to 120v. This would take the EMS completely out of the equation.
This would also make the Victron Quatro and Multi-Plus a bit of overkill since I would only be feeding one leg of 120v through the inverter.
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