Coach Batteries Not Fully Charging

[dave_denn8]

Originally Posted by dave_denn8

Take a look at my load center, at least from the front. Again, I assume the actual wire corrections are hidden behind the plastic piece that may be held on by the single screw/bolt in the center. Does anyone have any experience with this particular load center? If so, does removing the screw expose the wire and breaker connections? I’d appreciate any ideas anyone has about how to access the connections.

I forgot to include the photo! Sorry about that.

[Morich]

Maybe we need to look for a shorter route?
what we think is the output from the converter comes to the load center and you don't see it out where you can get to it very easy! But we also think it comes from that connection to a main of some sort before splitting to each of the smaller breakers.
So maybe a smaller idea(less work?)is to check the voltage getting to one of those smaller breakers?
If you take the batteries off, the only place left for the power to get there will be the output of the converter and you can check it there?

This drawing may help show what I'm thinking you may find easier but do some looking before saying it is the best way.
Still don't see your picture??


Idea is that there are only two places to get voltage, from the converter or what we have stored in the batteries.
If we unplug that stops voltage from the converter and we see what is in the batteries.

OR? If we cut off flow from the batteries by taking the big cable off at the batteries, we can only see what the converter is putting out when we have the RV plugged in!
IF we want to remove any doubt that something out on the circuits in the RV might be doing weird things like drawing too much power, we can disconnect all those circuits if we pull all the small fuses!

Rather than take the load center apart, we can decide what we want to see when testing by deciding where we open what path!
If you want to see the converter is putting out voltage, taking the cables off the batteries is one sure way to cut them off! If we pull all the small fuses we can see what we have when no load is there.
We can look at the battery power if we unplug the fuses and cord. or we can check the battery voltage getting to the fuses if we probe one side of the empty fuse space.
Just a way to isolate any one single part of the wiring without actually taking much apart other thasn taking the battery cable off.

I'm not finding a manual for the PD5245C model?? Just not online info or any chance that number got messed up?

[l1v3fr33ord1]

Originally Posted by dave_denn8

Thanks Morich,
I’m want to check the converter breaker (15 amp) but the bus is behind a panel and it seems to be held by a screw/bolt (see the previously posted photos). It apparently needs a special square tool to remove it, but I’ve not seen one like it so I’m reluctant to try and remove it, because I’m not sure it will expose the bus.
I have a variety of one quarter square bits that will fit in a drill motor that will probably work. But again, the fastener looks like aluminum and is probably pretty soft and easy to strip out.

The Web page for the Progressive Dynamics PD5000 distribution panel is here. The support docs for the panel say nothing about how to remove the cover over the 120V breaker section. So, to move ahead, please post a clear, close-up picture of the screw. With that we can tell you what tool to use. I suspect a hand tool will work- a power tool would be overkill for a metal screw that goes into a plastic box.

I believe the converter model is a PD9245C (link here).

[dave_denn8]

Originally Posted by Morich

Maybe we need to look for a shorter route?
what we think is the output from the converter comes to the load center and you don't see it out where you can get to it very easy! But we also think it comes from that connection to a main of some sort before splitting to each of the smaller breakers.
So maybe a smaller idea(less work?)is to check the voltage getting to one of those smaller breakers?
If you take the batteries off, the only place left for the power to get there will be the output of the converter and you can check it there?

This drawing may help show what I'm thinking you may find easier but do some looking before saying it is the best way.
Still don't see your picture??
Attachment 187940

Idea is that there are only two places to get voltage, from the converter or what we have stored in the batteries.
If we unplug that stops voltage from the converter and we see what is in the batteries.

OR? If we cut off flow from the batteries by taking the big cable off at the batteries, we can only see what the converter is putting out when we have the RV plugged in!
IF we want to remove any doubt that something out on the circuits in the RV might be doing weird things like drawing too much power, we can disconnect all those circuits if we pull all the small fuses!

Rather than take the load center apart, we can decide what we want to see when testing by deciding where we open what path!
If you want to see the converter is putting out voltage, taking the cables off the batteries is one sure way to cut them off! If we pull all the small fuses we can see what we have when no load is there.
We can look at the battery power if we unplug the fuses and cord. or we can check the battery voltage getting to the fuses if we probe one side of the empty fuse space.
Just a way to isolate any one single part of the wiring without actually taking much apart other thasn taking the battery cable off.

I'm not finding a manual for the PD5245C model?? Just not online info or any chance that number got messed up?

So, if I remove the battery cable coming from the converter will it still send power to the batteries even with no connection? Can converter output be measured by that cable and ground? As for the model number manual, I can’t find anything either so I’m going to check it asap. Happy Thanksgiving!

[Jado27]

We can all agree your converter is not working properly, but I agree with some others you haven’t verified it’s gone bad. If you have faulty wiring to the converter from shore power (110v side), or from the converter to the battery, (12v side) then replacing the unit will be pointless. “Faulty” could be a bad connection or a short anywhere in the system.
It might be a big pain, but you should isolate the converter for testing. (I would yank it out to bench test it, but easier said than done). I would:
1-Run 110 extension cord from shore straight to converter
2-monitor the voltage output straight from converter to any isolated 12v battery with separate (non RV wires.)
If the converter works continuously then work back from there. Hook back up into the RV 12v system to your RV batteries OR hook back up the 110v from RV breaker/wiring and monitor the system -likely for hours, and put under load tests.

If it’s working, the converter will always show over 13v-with no draw, if you connect an old battery or other 12v devices it might show a little drop but will stay in the 12’s. May the Winnie force be with you.

[Morich]

Going out on a limb and thinking one digit may have come out wrong, we want to look for troubleshooting on 9200 series as referenced above! So I see it means any method to disconnect the converter from batteries as a good check of output that seems somewhat simple.
Since they build them, I go fully with their suggestions on troubleshooting!
https://www.progressivedyn.com/servi...er-converters/

worth noting that they don't mention anything flaky like a come and go situation the converter might cause. They seem confident in saying it gives us a good voltage or forget it!
That would make me look for a spot to disconnect the converter output from the batteries, not bother with any sub battery connected and just check if it is working!

Since batteries tend to be terribly confusing, I might jump first to just plugging the RV in with everything connected as normal and just watch what the voltage on the batteries is actually doing.

Sometimes we can get so hung up on thinking something is wrong, when the problem was some small point we missed!
If the batteries are good, start out at some charge lower than 13, we plug in and the voltage comes up to 12.6+ and stays for several hours after we disconnect the charging, I would call it good and not work harder to find a problem!

I leave the sleeping dog lie, unless he jumps up and barks!

[dave_denn8]

Originally Posted by Jado27

We can all agree your converter is not working properly, but I agree with some others you haven’t verified it’s gone bad. If you have faulty wiring to the converter from shore power (110v side), or from the converter to the battery, (12v side) then replacing the unit will be pointless. “Faulty” could be a bad connection or a short anywhere in the system.
It might be a big pain, but you should isolate the converter for testing. (I would yank it out to bench test it, but easier said than done). I would:
1-Run 110 extension cord from shore straight to converter
2-monitor the voltage output straight from converter to any isolated 12v battery with separate (non RV wires.)
If the converter works continuously then work back from there. Hook back up into the RV 12v system to your RV batteries OR hook back up the 110v from RV breaker/wiring and monitor the system -likely for hours, and put under load tests.

If it’s working, the converter will always show over 13v-with no draw, if you connect an old battery or other 12v devices it might show a little drop but will stay in the 12’s. May the Winnie force be with you.

Thanks for your suggestion. After the holiday I’m going to try that since it’s easy to just unplug it from the load center and plug it into an extension cord. Have a great Thanksgiving.

[dave_denn8]

Originally Posted by dave_denn8

Thanks for your suggestion. After the holiday I’m going to try that since it’s easy to just unplug it from the load center and plug it into an extension cord. Have a great Thanksgiving.

So, This morning I turned on the furnace, turned on all the lights and let them run and stay on for 4 hours. Before I started the experiment, I checked the batteries and found them to be at12.3 volts. When I turned on the furnace and lights, the voltage dropped to 12.0 volts and stayed there for the 4 hours.

After that time, I checked the batteries and found them to be at 12.0 volts.

After about 3 hours, I again checked the batteries and found them to be at 13.2 volts!
Taking one of the suggestions from you, I disconnected the converter cable from the batteries as well as the ground cable. When I tested the output from the converter I discovered it to be putting 14.1 volts into the batteries.

That seems a bit high but it is definitely charging the batteries.

I reconnected the converter cable to the batteries and they still read 13.2 volts. I'm not sure how or why, but the converter seems to be working to charge the batteries. Any suggestions, ideas, wild guesses on why this is happening?

I have an appointment to take the RV into a shop where an RV electrician works, but I'm sure it will be expensive and if I somehow fixed the problem, I'm not sure I should do that.
Any advice would be helpful.
Thanks,
Dave

[bigb]

When you disconnected the converter from the batteries you were seeing open circuit voltage. As soon as you connect to a load, like the batteries, the voltage will drop in relation to how much current is flowing into the batteries. Just like when you ran loads, the voltage drops. Then you shut off the loads and voltage rises.

I will add that OCV at 14.1 volts might be a bit on the low side.

[dave_denn8]

Originally Posted by bigb

When you disconnected the converter from the batteries you were seeing open circuit voltage. As soon as you connect to a load, like the batteries, the voltage will drop in relation to how much current is flowing into the batteries. Just like when you ran loads, the voltage drops. Then you shut off the loads and voltage rises.

I will add that OCV at 14.1 volts might be a bit on the low side.

So, if I understand, even though the converter shows 14 volts, it will drop in relation to the batteries voltage need. Is that correct?
Doesn’t it mean the converter is working?

[bigb]

Originally Posted by dave_denn8

So, if I understand, even though the converter shows 14 volts, it will drop in relation to the batteries voltage need. Is that correct?
Doesn’t it mean the converter is working?

Yes it seems to be working to some extent, but a better test would be to measure your batteries while everything is off, all loads and all charging. Then switch the converter on but do not switch on any loads. You should see a higher voltage than you saw with everything off. Then switch on some loads to see if the converter is keeping up.
It is unclear when you measured the 13.2 volts whether the batteries had been resting, whether the loads had been switched off and whether the converter was on or off.

In order for the batteries to charge or stay charged the converter has to keep supplying voltage that is higher than the battery voltage even when you are running loads, if it can't keep up you will lose ground and the batteries will gradually discharge.

To find that out, charge the batteries fully then let them rest for at least 4 hours with no loads and no charging and then measure them. Then run the loads and the converter for a decent amount like when you are camping (I would run lots of load as if it were a cold night). Then disconnect everything and let the batteries rest again for at least 4 hours and re-check the voltage.

[creativepart]

dave_denn8, from what you've said in post number 48 above... sounds like all is working normally.

But it seems you don't have a practical understanding of battery voltages and changing.

When you "tested" your batteries at 12.3v that means your batteries were 50% discharged at the start of your test. You ran loads in your test and depleted them more completely to about 10% state of charge.

I know someone posted a battery voltage chart earlier. 12.7v is full and 12.0 is pretty near empty. So, you can see the voltage range between full and empty is not large.

When charging via a converter, external charger or your alternator they will pump 14+v into your batteries. It will take many many hours to recharge those batteries. During that charging they will show 13+v because you're not reading the battery your reading the charger.

Charge them for 24 hours and turn off whatever you have charging your batteries and you "may" see 13v still. But that's still just seeing the a residual current left behind by the charger. If you read 13v with no charger for an hour or so all you have to do is turn on a light or two and immediately that will drop to 12.7v.

Outside of those givens, which you should learn to recognize, there is also a possibility that one or more battery is damaged. When that's the case the batteries can show fully charged but then drop rapidly with even a small load. That just means you have a bad battery.

How do you know if your converter is charging your batteries fully? Turn off all loads. Plug into shore power for 20 to 30 hours. Then turn off the charger and don't run anything or even check on the voltage for many hours... 6, 8 or even overnight. The next morning don't run anything but put a voltage meter directly on your batteries. If fully charged you'll see 12.7-12.8 volts.

That is how you know that your converter is charging your batteries properly.

If the batteries then drop immediately to say 12.3v with medium usage that could be a good indication that one or all of your batteries is damaged and can't hold it's charge.

[dave_denn8]

Originally Posted by bigb

Yes it seems to be working to some extent, but a better test would be to measure your batteries while everything is off, all loads and all charging. Then switch the converter on but do not switch on any loads. You should see a higher voltage than you saw with everything off. Then switch on some loads to see if the converter is keeping up.
It is unclear when you measured the 13.2 volts whether the batteries had been resting, whether the loads had been switched off and whether the converter was on or off.

In order for the batteries to charge or stay charged the converter has to keep supplying voltage that is higher than the battery voltage even when you are running loads, if it can't keep up you will lose ground and the batteries will gradually discharge.

To find that out, charge the batteries fully then let them rest for at least 4 hours with no loads and no charging and then measure them. Then run the loads and the converter for a decent amount like when you are camping (I would run lots of load as if it were a cold night). Then disconnect everything and let the batteries rest again for at least 4 hours and re-check the voltage.

I’ll give that a try tomorrow.
Thanks

[dave_denn8]

Well, since my results are not consistent and I’ve tried every one of your (and others) suggestions, I’ve decided I can’t really trust the RV to do another cold night outing, so I’m going to bite the bullet and take it to a shop with a qualified electrician and get what needs to be fixed done.
Thanks to all of you for your help and sticking with me through all my bumbling attempts to fix my problem.
It’s really gratifying to realize there are so many people out there who are willing to take time out of their lives to try and help out someone they don’t even know! Again, thank all of you for your kind and generous help, I’ve learned a lot.
Dave

[Jado27]

Dave. I think an RV electrician is a great idea at this point. After reviewing your post I have more questions then answers.
I don't see that you ever verified your batteries are in good order, this could be the issue, your converter will kick off if there are bad cells.
Also if you have a BIM (battery isolation manager) it will kick off and redirect charging if the battery or connection is bad.
When you run your furnace are you using the electric furnace or the gas furnace (assuming you have both)? The electric will only run on shore power/110. If its the electric AC/heat it has nothing to do with your 12v system other than the fact that its likely shutting off your converter from low 110 voltage or a short somewhere, overheating is possible but unlikely. If your running the gas furnace thats a bit different, the only real power needed for that is the blower motor. Let us know what you find.

[dave_denn8]

Originally Posted by Jado27

Dave. I think an RV electrician is a great idea at this point. After reviewing your post I have more questions then answers.
I don't see that you ever verified your batteries are in good order, this could be the issue, your converter will kick off if there are bad cells.
Also if you have a BIM (battery isolation manager) it will kick off and redirect charging if the battery or connection is bad.
When you run your furnace are you using the electric furnace or the gas furnace (assuming you have both)? The electric will only run on shore power/110. If its the electric AC/heat it has nothing to do with your 12v system other than the fact that its likely shutting off your converter from low 110 voltage or a short somewhere, overheating is possible but unlikely. If your running the gas furnace thats a bit different, the only real power needed for that is the blower motor. Let us know what you find.

Several days ago I disconnected the coach batteries by removing all the cables from the posts. First I checked the batteries and found that one showed 13.1 volts and the other was 12.2 volts. I left both disconnected overnight and until the next afternoon and checked them again. I found that one read 12.0 and the other was 12.1 volts. I forgot to mention that I also disconnected shore power and turned off the converter breaker for good measure.
This morning after reconnecting the batteries, etc. they showed 12.0 on the meter.
I was surprised that plugging in to shore power and switching on the breaker for the converter did not change the voltage, but when I started the coach the battery voltage jumped up to 13.2 volts; Interesting.
It seemed to do a similar thing when the batteries died plugged at an rv park. The minute I started the engine, the batteries immediately showed over 12 volts and ran the furnace all the rest of the night.
I spoke to the RV electrician this morning and he seems to think a relay or some inline switch is not allowing power from the converter to the batteries and when u start the engine, it resets the switch. Until he can do some tests it remains a mystery. He calls them “Gremlins.”

[wahoonc]

If the engine is running the batteries are being charged by the alternator.

Aaron

[dave_denn8]

I thought the engine only charged the starter battery.

[bigb]

Originally Posted by dave_denn8

I thought the engine only charged the starter battery.

The engine charges both. When you start the engine a battery isolation manager or solenoid closes and allows the alternator to charge the house batteries. When you stop the engine the BIM/BIS opens and isolates the two battery banks so there is no risk of depleting the chassis battery with house loads while parked.

[dave_denn8]

Originally Posted by bigb

The engine charges both. When you start the engine a battery isolation manager or solenoid closes and allows the alternator to charge the house batteries. When you stop the engine the BIM/BIS opens and isolates the two battery banks so there is no risk of depleting the chassis battery with house loads while parked.

Thanks, I’m learning more every time you all give me information. I can explain and teach quantum mechanics to mush brained college Freshmen but sometime rv circuitry escapes me! Sorry for my dumbness! ��