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Old 10-10-2023, 10:53 AM   #1
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Fully charged - no starter click 2021 Vita 24P

2021 Vita 24p
Hi all! I let my chassis battery run down. I pulled the battery master and fully charged it. It's at home plugged in so the BattleBorn house batteries are fully charged too. I press the start button, everything jumps to life, the gauge needles do that sweep thing - then nothing. No errors, no starter click. It's in park, parking brake and it's light on, brake pedal pressed with brake lights lit.

Fuse 31b (starter) under the passenger floor board is good.

I tried jumping it too. I don't think it would help but I can't use the Boost button because it wasn't installed. The wires for it and the "support down" warning light are there but not connected to anything.

Any ideas I can try?

TIA
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Old 10-10-2023, 01:47 PM   #2
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I believe the German Engineering on this will not allow even a "click" if the battery voltage is too low. As you tried to jump-start it, were you keeping the brake pedal depressed at the time? Sometimes when jumping, you are not in the normal drive & go position.
It is so odd that your battery boost is not hooked-up.
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Old 10-10-2023, 01:52 PM   #3
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Thanks for the reply

The brake light come on when I press the pedal, the parking brake is engaged and it's dash light is on. When the battery is low the dash say "Start Engine - See Owners Manual"



I'm trying to find the place that feeds the starter solenoid. Maybe these newer engines handle it differently?


Even the manual fails here. It says to see section 3, Driving your Motorhome, to learn about the boost button but Section 3 doesn't mention it. The Winnebago wiring diagrams show where it should be but... I don't know if the dealer (useless) was supposed to install it or if Winnebago was.


Thanks again - any suggestions would be welcomed. Towing it 100 miles to the dealer will be a huge problem.
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Old 10-10-2023, 02:11 PM   #4
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You are running into what I see as "progress" which is making it almost impossible to repair things like we used to do it.
I traded a pretty nice 2015 Ford Focus which had a starting problem that we finally gave up as three different Ford garages and lots of visits could not fix!
The newer ignitions have a number of things that will not allow power to get to the solenoid. some is to avoid theft, some to conserve battery for all the electronic gizmos that we have added and some are things the mechanics don't know what they do. Just the computer diagnostics say to change things which don't fix it!

We had an extended warranty which had $100 deductible but they changed the transmission control module so many times they finally broke a tooth off a gear which went down through the transmission, so they got to eat that $7000 (they said) but it still would not start at times!
When they insisted it had to be a bad battery for the third time and not covered by warranty, I quit!

You may be dealing with an engine/chassis part which most of us have never heard of before! Winnebago will not have any info either as they just buy the stripped chassis to build on.
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Old 10-10-2023, 10:17 PM   #5
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On the older 2018 Chassis the starter circuit goes thru a Nuetral safety switch in the Transmission, which would overheat and cause a no start condition, however your rig is on a newer chassis so I dont believe they are related. Your Mercedes also may have a memory backup battery under the passenger seat,could that battery be dead.? Wonder if you need a reflash on your computer?
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Old 10-11-2023, 07:56 AM   #6
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A couple questions to clear some things? Is this a new RV to you or are you used to finding things on it?

Some doubt about what you mean when you say you pulled the battery master? Are you speaking of a switch or just the chassis battery? Then the missing boost switch seems highly unlikely that it was not installed as that is part of the factory job and not the dealership??
Do you have an empty hole somewhere like the switch has been removed or what tells you it is missing?

Have you located and checked the chassis battery disconnect down to the right of the accelerator pedal?

Also the gizmo to connect coach and chassis batteries together should be checked.
It would also be helpful on this RV to know whether you have the early or late build. This can be sorted by checking the label next to the driver for serial number. If 7th digit is 1, you are early or 2 for later build. Sometimes the differences are small but they can be vital at times, so it just pays to look at the correct info when possible.

A small point may also be confusing things as the manual mentions the coach battery disconnect light will be on when plugged in, even if the switch is off!
Possibly check to make sure all switches and disconnects are on?

Do you have a meter to check voltages from the chassis battery going out to the starter?
I would consider this to be a case of first finding if the power is getting to the starter and then second if the wiring from the key and ignitions parts are getting the signal to that solenoid.
Easier part to check is the 12Volts getting to the starter solenoid. If not, that part is much easier to chase down as it is the big battery cables that we can see and identify!
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Old 10-13-2023, 12:44 PM   #7
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Thanks Lenore. I took the passenger seat out to look. I see the relay for the generator on the center side and the ?battery charger? with all the heat sinks. What would the battery look like. I'm fairly technical. how would I flash the computer?

I have a nice computer reader but the Mercedes details are locked out.
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Old 10-13-2023, 12:51 PM   #8
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Thanks Morich. The cable I'm disconnecting is the chassis battery disconnect. When I pull that all the battery power go off. The chassis battery charges quickly that way. When I plug it back in the system jumps back to life but still no starter solenoid movement.

I assume there is a relay somewhere that says if the starter gets juice or not. I can't find it sadly.

I'm reading the Mercedes wiring diagrams but they can leave me lost sometimes.

I am on shore power so the coach battery light is on. I've tried unplugging and turning off the coach battery switch with no effect.
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Old 10-13-2023, 01:24 PM   #9
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My serial number starts with 10C1612. I think that's the latest Vita 24P made in 2021.
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Old 10-13-2023, 04:01 PM   #10
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Yes, the 2 should show you have the later build for that year.
Sometimes the differences are small but we can work with less possible confusion on what exact RV you have!

Yes, I also have a lot of trouble reading many of the chassis builder's diagrams as each industry seem to have certain things to get used to in reading.
Part of the trouble with the auto builders is that they have service departments which hold the info very tightly as a way to keep service rolling into their shops!

So we can often get info on the RV part but little from the chassis builders. This starter problem and wiring will be in the chassis info where we have trouble getting info!

There may be some small help as Winnebago uses a system of placing tape on the ends of large cables like battery cables as a way to let us ID which may go to what items.
This chart may help when looking at the cables?
Click to get a better view to read!
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To avoid confusion let me mention that there are two solenoids that we might look at on this question. Note that there are solenoids on the chassis engine starter as well as the generator engine starter! Those are marked with red and green tape when new but don't mention solenoids!
Not to confuse them with the cables with purple and yellow tape as this solenoid may not actually be a solenoid but newer RV may have a newer solid state item called a battery isolation manager (BIM) . The BIM is a solid state item while the solenoid is a mechanical set of contacts!
This solenoid or BIM if new style is what connects the two batteries together when the engine is running or we push a switch near the driver. the switch is labeled differently on different RV but AUX, Boost, AUX boost are some different names for this switch!

Under the passenger seat is where to find the BIM and relay that the battery disconnect switch works to cut power to most of the RV inside 12V items.

Click to get best view!
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This is NOT the main points you need to know as it is part of the RV info and NOT what you need from the chassis builders for their part of the wiring.
I send this as a way to avoid spotting cables here and thinking they are involved with the path from chassis battery to starter solenoid.
The BIM has cables from the chassis battery to it where it connects to the coach but they are not the main line to the starter!

Something to be aware of that Winnebago provides but not to confuse you?

The chassis folks don't tell us even where the chassis battery is located but there are sometimes large fuses in the line from battery to things. These are called mega fuses if you are not familiar with those.
They can look like big lumps in the cable is they are placed where they get dirt and road oil on them, so we may have to look very close to spot them!
The problem is that they have cable connections on each end that can get dirty and corroded to stop the power!

This is a picture from the parts catalog of two near the coach batteries.
There may/ may not be one in the chassis battery line???
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Old 10-14-2023, 12:56 AM   #11
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Thanks for digging in Richard. I'm recovering from back surgery so I hope to stay off the ground. The first picture is a point of interest. I thought the item you labeled "battery disconnect .." was for the generator? The mystery item is the relay in between. The wiring diagram doesn't help much. Pic attached.


Tomorrow I'll dig back into the chassis battery. It looks like the cable leaving the chassis battery to the starter has a fuse? Pic attached.

On the battery boost and stabilizer not being connected, the stabilizer warning thing is in the dash but none of the bundle of yellow and white wires are connected. The Winnebago diagrams show the boost button was to be installed under the stabilir warning piece. No hole, no switch but it seems the wires are there.


Thanks again for all of your insight. This is our first RV and I am having a great time fixing and upgrading.
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Old 10-14-2023, 08:01 AM   #12
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Let go a different route, if you go under motorhome and measure on the starter is there 12.6 volts going to the starter. Want to make sure you have that. The solenoid on starter is what switches the 12.6 volts to the starter motor. that usually has a smaller wire, (not battery size) On my older chassis I had the 12.6 volts on the battery large cable, but the other wire I had nothing as the Transmission nuetral safety switch was failing to complete the circuit for the starter solenoid.
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Old 10-14-2023, 08:36 AM   #13
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Getting lots of details, so hang on if it gets confusing. I have studied these a lot and still not getting all the small points of difference on the solid state BIM versus the old "mode solenoid.
I see most of the wiring the same as I knew but minor changes at the BIM.
On mode solenoids, there are one or two wires from the dash boost switch. One is LR and has 12v when we push the switch or when engine is running and the other is FM. Some older RV use a three post solenoid and pick up ground through the metal body of the solenoid. Three post do not have FM but pick up ground local. There are four post solenoids and FM brings ground to the solenoid as it tied on the mounting screw to double down on getting good ground!

But on this BIM, it shows FM as bringing ground to control the BIM and no Battery brought from dash? Part of the solid state design we don't know about?? All things have to have a full path to work so maybe they swapped and already have the battery supply from inside components and decided to only bring ground to complete the circuit?

I tried to draw out the parts and flow as I see it on these two.
Use this chart to decode the IDs.
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf
Click to get better view!
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I marked in red and black the two big battery cables from each battery .
Marked the control wire FM in purple! They much have battery in some way they don't show us and when ground hits FM, the two battery supplies connect together inside for the boost or charge while driving!

Meanwhile the red mark connects over to the disconnect relay. When this relay is open, the green line still takes power to the fuses for safety items like CO detector, etc. that can run a battery down when stored long enough!
The control wires for this relay are next to the green but not labeled on this drawing?
When those wires from the disconnect switch operate this relay, power goes through to the big battery cable to the generator starter solenoid!
That also put power on the wires to the rest of the RV fuses on wire KKF. There is also another unlabeled wire that may also go to fuses?

The relay? I have no idea! Not gotten around to study that. So big question might be if it has a label on the wires to it, so we could look on the chart for clues? This drawing shows one wire but it has to have more as one wire gets nothing done! I'm guessing it has at least 2, maybe lots more?

The battery cable to the starter may have an inline fuse but not the mega fuse I mentioned. Newer RV with lots of "funny" different things?? And they stopped giving us as many good drawings as before! ARRGH!

It sounds like your RV got robbed of the dash switch?? Maybe a dealer pulled it out to repair another Rv until he got the parts and never came back?
Maybe they "forgot" at the factory? Hard to believe but I'm seeing lots of things happen that we would have never believed 10-20 years ago!

But when I look at the details of that spot, I see an alarm for sound and an alarm light nest to it, to keep you from driving with them down?
I would expect boost switch in some other location where the driver can reach it?
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Sorry about the back. I thought I had back trouble but resisted surgery for 10 years until finally I got lucky and found a doctor with a different view!
After many trips to MD and lots of chiropracters, two physical therapy sections cured me. Simple exercise to loosen muscles and I have no pain for ten years! No back pain, that is!! Everything else still hurts!
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Old 10-14-2023, 01:12 PM   #14
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I avoided surgery for a bit. A neighbor is going to do stem cell injections for the same problem. I feel better after fusion than laproscopy.

I'm going out to track the 12v and, I hope, verify your notes on the diagram.

Thanks again!
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Old 10-15-2023, 01:39 AM   #15
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Closer?

Hi Lenore and Richard. I drug myself under the Vita and see the starter solenoid. If I remember shop in high school The power is the middle pole and the other two kicks into action?



I think the mystery relay in the middle of Richard's picture is for the Stabilizer Warning panel on the dash. I hope that will help me hook it up.


I checked voltage under the passenger seat. With the ignition on all had 14.2 volts except the top of the BM which has 12.


Do you think the right post on the relay on right goes to the starter or generator or both?


I ordered a scanner for the Sprinter. That may shed some light too.


This is the starter, right?
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Old 10-15-2023, 08:06 AM   #16
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Just some things that may help?
The two big cables on the BIM should be one to the chassis battery and one to the coach battery.
If the RV has set overnight or so and both batteries are stable, one is likely to read a bit different than the other. That would tell us that the BIM is not connecting the two. But if we start the RV engine, then they should connect and read the same. If somebody revs the engine, then both should go high or lower as the rev speeds up or slows! That tells us the BIM is working right and connected them!
If you have some things like lights running in the RV, you may see the coach battery reading a little lower than chassis side. If you put the meter on the chassis side, you often see it 's voltage drop way down while the engine is cranking and drawing power, but just almost instantly as the engine begins to run, that power comes right back up.

What we read is called "surface charge" on batteries. That means it is not a true reading of the chemicals all down through ALL the battery, just what is happening right at the surface!
sometimes compared to looking in the hole in a barrel of water while we add black ink to the barrel? If we look right as we put the ink in, we may think the water is really full of ink as it looks really black. But if we let the ink settle for an hour and come back, we may not see any black at all as the "surface charge" has spread out all around the barrel!
The point is that batteries are a slow chemical process and it takes 6-8 hours to get a really flat battery back to fully charged and it also takes hours for it to become stable, so that we can read the true charge all through the battery.
When we read 14 volts we can say for sure the battery has been being charged recently because the chemicals will not hold more than 12.8 on the best lead acid battery. Anything higher is just the remains of the charge voltage!

On to the relay and stabilizer items?
We can use the wire ID chart herein two different ways!
https://www.winnebago.com/Files/File...ical_guide.pdf

If we look at the small wires on the center relay and find an ID, we can bring up the chart, hit Ctrl and F at the same time to bring a drop down place to input search terms like the wire ID.
Put in LR and it tells us how many places it finds LR in the list and also drops to the first in the list or we can then hit the small arrows to scroll.
OR we can do it backwards at times. If we know we want info on the stabilizer wires, we can put in a few letters like "stab" and get the list for that!
It is not a perfect system as we can put some terms in and find it listed 90-100 places, so it takes some playing to sort. But it's the best I find for some searching!

Stab get me this as a start and seems like it may tell you what wire ID you might find at the switches and alarms for the stabilizer wiring.

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We get a drawing that shows that relay with one wire connected to it. But logic says one wire is not going to make anything work, so it has to have more than one where they just show us a cable going out to the RV!
A look for the ID on those small wires at the relay will tell where they should come from and go to by looking at the chart.
You may find it is something with the stabilizer jacks? Or we may be guessing wrong and it has nothing to do with them?
But if you look at the dash wires where the alarm light should be, there is likely one labeled AFM!!
See how I got there?

On the battery disconnect relay, the big battery cables from coach come in on left and the green path takes power to the safety equipment fuses on the green line. If the relay is closed, power goes through to the right and on to the generator on a big cable. There is also a smaller wire going to the rest of the coach RV fuses that the relay DOES cut off on the orange path!
I did not mark it but the control wires are in the center at top. Part of them will have to go to the wall "battery disconnect switch" in the RV!
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Old 10-15-2023, 10:58 AM   #17
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That's fantastic information Richard - thanks! I think I can get the stabilizer warnings fixed once the motor starts. There is a bundle of 7 unused wires behind the warning light piece. I hope some are for the boost so I can install that too! Had the boost been installed I might have avoided all of this.


If I have juice to the starter then it's down to the starter relay, I think.

I'll let you know what I learn.
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Old 10-15-2023, 01:21 PM   #18
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The bad news - No 12v on center post of starter solenoid
The good news - I've learned how to spell solenoid.


Going back in. It's very hard to get under but here goes...
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Old 10-15-2023, 03:01 PM   #19
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Woops. The ignition was off. I have 12 at the starter solenoid, if this is the right place.
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Old 10-15-2023, 08:32 PM   #20
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That is good you have battery voltage, but the other post should have 12volts to actuate the solenoid for starting. That will take two people one to turn ignition key to start position.
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