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Old 12-05-2019, 01:54 PM   #1
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Converting to Lithium house Batteries

Has anyone installed the “Battle Born” Lithium batteries in place of the Lead acid that come standard with the Navion/View? My 2018 Navion 24D battery tray appears to be about 22” wide, but two “drop-in” battle born batteries Will take up 24+ inches. The Other dimensions look doable, but not the width....and the battery tray isn’t easily widened either.
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:34 PM   #2
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Your tray must hold the batteries end to end, rather than side by side?


In our Sunstar, 2 side by side BBs mounted are about 15" wide, 12.5" deep, and 9" high.


Will 2 of these fit?
https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...cycle-battery/
10.32 x 7.36 x 11 (L x W xH)


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Old 12-05-2019, 03:40 PM   #3
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Batteries come in various sizes, usually “Group” sizes. As in Group 24, Group 27, Group 31. And the group number indicates the dimensions of the battery. Do you know what group size your current batteries are?

Sounds like yours are Group 24 (10.25 x 6.8125 x 8.875).

Drop in 100aH LiPo deep cycle are harder to find in Group 24 size. I don’t think Battle Born makes one.
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:52 PM   #4
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Thanks for the reply! No- that one is too tall. My tray is only 7” deep. The batteries I bought are the BB10012 100Ah 12V LiFePO4 Deep Cycle type (12”x9”x7”).
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:54 PM   #5
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You purchased Group 31 batteries... based on the size you mentioned.

They are drop in replacements for Group 31 batteries - a common size for house batteries in Class A motorhomes.
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:02 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by jcurtisis View Post
Has anyone installed the “Battle Born” Lithium batteries in place of the Lead acid that come standard with the Navion/View? My 2018 Navion 24D battery tray appears to be about 22” wide, but two “drop-in” battle born batteries Will take up 24+ inches. The Other dimensions look doable, but not the width....and the battery tray isn’t easily widened either.
You're talking BB1012 X 2? You're right, the Napa 8240s are GR24, and the BBs are GR31.
I swapped in 2 X RB100-LT models (same size as the BBs) and had to grind off the flanges at either side of the tray to get them to fit left to right. As per Billbo/Kayak73. I also added a soft synthetic pad as extra support underneath them. It's a tight squeeze, but they fit, and are looking good.
Get the Napa batteries and all the wires out of the way first, then go pick up one of these little beauties. Worked perfectly and made the job quick and simple.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Hyper-Tou...013G/390442865
Also pick up some Tremclad or Rustoleum paint to paint the bare metal after the grinding is complete.
Alternately, you could measure up those GC2 BB models and see if they'd fit.
Others have suggested they did, when they swapped in Trojan T105s.
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:37 PM   #7
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Thanks! Grinding off the lip on both sides is what I thought was needed. Once done, how did the clamp on top fit? Looks like the LI batteries are ~1 inch taller; did the existing clamp work as is?
FYI one RV dealer is estimating $500-$800 as they say one needs to “install angle iron all the way around to properly weld the ends in place”. Did I understand you correctly from your note that once you ground off the lips on the sides you didn’t re-cover the ends for protection/support- just put a pad underneath?
Also: how about the battery cables- did you need new ones? Looks like the existing negative to negative connector (and the positive to positive one) is too short for the new batteries
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:52 PM   #8
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Thanks! Grinding off the lip on both sides is what I thought was needed. Once done, how did the clamp on top fit? Looks like the LI batteries are ~1 inch taller; did the existing clamp work as is?
FYI one RV dealer is estimating $500-$800 as they say one needs to “install angle iron all the way around to properly weld the ends in place”. Did I understand you correctly from your note that once you ground off the lips on the sides you didn’t re-cover the ends- just out a pad underneath?
Also: how about the battery cables- did you need new ones? Looks like the existing negative to negative connector (and the positive to positive one) is too short for the new batteries
Yes, I had to grind off the lip at either side of the original tray base. My new battery cases are almost 25" wide, placed end to end/side by side. I don't think they're going to fall out, as the tie downs seem very secure holding them in place.
For my RB100-LT models, the tie downs still fit over the cases. Had to adjust/raise slightly the large bolt holding the top of the tie down to the back wall of the battery trays a bit, but after a little fiddling, it all fit eventually.
The tie downs were a pita during squeezing the 2 batteries into the tray, as they kept falling into the way. I should have maybe taped them to the sides of the tray, before trying to place the new batteries.
It was getting dark and later in the day, so I did a quick paint job of the bare metal ends, and then placed a piece of that interlocking floor mat stuff people use to cushion the floor in a home gym area. Cut it to size first, of course.
All told, it cost me about 2 hours of labor (and some occasional profanities), about $20 for the grinder (I live in Canada, and even with our weaker $ the US model is cheaper, so I picked one up in Michigan), and a couple of bucks for a package of that floor mat stuff. I already had some Tremclad paint.
re: battery cables - thanks for reminding me. Yes the parallel (short) cables were too short by a hair, so I had to pick up a couple of generics from the local Canadian Tire. I think they were about $15 for 1/0 gauge cables 18" with the ends already crimped with eyelet lug connectors.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/m...1088p.html#srp
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:53 PM   #9
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When in place, I see that a parallel wiring plan has the battery negative terminals cabled together and the positives wired together - does it matter which side of the positive terminals the House positive cable connects to? Seems like it wouldn’t matter. Same question for negative side.
Also: any trick about connecting to the Battle born terminals? Existing Napa battery has posts that are vertical, but the BB terminals have holes to bolt in horizontally.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:19 PM   #10
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Some like to configure the cables tso that the - cables connect at one end of the parallel circuit, and the + end terminates at the opposite entry point for the current draws. Sorry, not explaining it very well. I didn't worry about it for mine.
My Relions have standard 8MM-10MM battery posts.
Check with Battle Born. I think they sell connecting nuts/bolts kits for their batteries. You can probably get them at any home improvement or hardware store.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:56 PM   #11
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Ok- got it. Thanks again!
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:26 PM   #12
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The idea of having the positive at one end of the paralleling pair and the negative at the orther end probably makes some sense if you're dealing with plated lead acid batteries to balance charging/dicharging across the entire plate/cell "farm". I think the BMS in the newer lithiums takes care of the cell balancing internally, so it's not as much of an issue. Like the usage management of an SSD in a laptop. It's invisible to us, but runs in the background to balance "drive wear".
However, I could be misintertpreting how the BMS works.
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:58 PM   #13
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Like this:
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Old 12-06-2019, 06:54 PM   #14
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Like this:
Not really required for BMS internally managed LiFePO4 batteries. The BMS takes care of the charge/discharge balancing of the cells internally. As suggested in my prior post.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:39 PM   #15
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I still like to install as creativepart depicts in his drawing - just because it does follow good practice. The idea in the 24D is to attach the load and inverter to the far positive post (at the + sign in his drawing) and the chassis cable to ground at the last or end of the negative (the - sign in his drawing). This should induce current flow as near to equal in both batteries as possible.

My Battleborns came with the hardware to attach the cables and I did need to purchase cables to make it "right". Tractor Supply had the correct cables with lugs installed 1/0, easy.

In my case I had already done the gross mod when the rig was new to defeat the Group 24 tray restriction by pulling out the big sawzall and cutting the mess out of the way. Then riveted a new bottom in place over the two parallel pieces left with rivets on the sides left after the chop. The width was kept with cutouts at each corner in the new piece to allow cable pull through. At the time that was to allow the monster Trojans to fit.

I understand WGO has stopped restricting the size of the battery tray because they are now shipping with group 31 batteries.
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Old 12-07-2019, 05:50 AM   #16
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The TRIM command is a command in the ATA set which marks discrete parts of the SSD as deleted and good to write over. In the Linux world it is done for us since Ubuntu 14 once a week in the CRON so in theory we never have to think about it now. Still if in any Linux flavor or MS flavor you do a ton of file changing/deleting it does not hurt to run TRIM after that or FSTRIM in Linux, even daily, from terminal. It keeps the SSD from slowing down. If you run MS you have many other things to worry about to keep the OS speedy.


So...I suppose one could imagine TRIM works similar to BMS, mostly out of mind and out of sight to keep things smooth.
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:02 AM   #17
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I have my SSD setup to run it once a week. I have no idea how that will affect the SSD drive wear and longevity. My options for automatic SSD maintenance (Win10) were Daily, Weekly, Monthly, so I chose the middle ground. I hope the wear leveling algorithms do their thing and keep this one running for years. There's a DOS command that gives an estimate of drive wear, but I forget the format.
I also encrypt almost everything of any value prior to deletion, to prevent anyone from recovering anything without the encryption key(s). It's a pita to do, but it gives me a warmer fuzzy about identity and other types of theft. Overkill, yes.
It's my first laptop with SSD, and so far it's very impressive, speed wise. The BIOS startup takes about 10 seconds, and if I'm paying attention, the entire OS is up in less than a minute. It's much faster than the prior pc which had a 5th Gen I7 and a HDD. The new one has a 10th Gen I7 plus the SSD and it seems supercharged by comparison.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:11 AM   #18
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I think that LiPo cell balancing and battery management does not replace the need to balance both the power output and charging input of a total battery bank. Cell balancing and multi-battery parallel bank balancing seem to be different considerations.

PS. Interesting example of how a causal off-topic comment leads to wildly off topic discussion. Not scolding here - I've worked on Forums for 20+yrs and always find it interesting when things go so far off topic.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:30 AM   #19
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I think that LiPo cell balancing and battery management does not replace the need to balance both the power output and charging input of a total battery bank. Cell balancing and multi-battery parallel bank balancing seem to different considerations.

PS. Interesting example of how a causal off-topic comment leads to wildly off topic discussion. Not scolding here - I've worked on Forums for 20+yrs and always find it interesting when things go so far off topic.
Right you are.

Internal (within each individual battery) BMS systems cannot of course have any "control" over how much charging or load current winds up going to each battery in a parallel setup due to unequal current path lengths to each battery. A balanced wiring scheme for parallel batteries makes all external charging and load path cable lengths the same.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:32 AM   #20
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I do believe that (just my opinion) the current flow in and out of 2 lithium batteries whether separate or in parallel, is managed and balanced on that basis, and that both of the individual BMS react to what they see at either + or - terminal, and balance it across all the cells accordingly. That's what it's in there for, so there's no real need to worry about cable in and out positions. The same way that the rest of the coach sees the 2 batteries as one big 12V DC power source, not 2 batteries, and it doesn't care either. I would agree that maybe it makes more sense to do it that way in 12V FLA batteries with plates positioned physically in sequence within the 6 cells between the + and - terminals. Again, I would agree with it in this case because FLAs don't have an internal cell balanciing and management system, like the lithiums do. Again, just my opinion, and you are going to do what you feel is appropriate, and I will likewise, either way.
(have a look at the youtube vids out there where people take a lithium battery apart - it ain't 6 lead plates swimming in sulphuric acid between an anode and cathode, for sure)

Sorry about the SSD stuff. I used it as an analogy, and yes, got off topic.
Kayak73 started the meander, though, with his TRIM response......
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