Wow - house batteries already low on water! (Dimensions Inverter!)

John_Canfield · 08-03-2005, 03:35 PM

Time to do a little work in the coach today. Opened the door and tried to turn the XM radio/RV Radio - nothing! Tried a light or two - nothing but flickers. Yes - the coach is plugged into shore power!

House batteries are reading 8 or 9 volts (YIKES!)

The Dimensions invertor/convertor is shut off due to low battery voltage (figure that one out.) When I did get it to start charging after connecting the engine and house batteries together briefly, it would only charge at a rate of about 15 amps - NOT GOOD!

I metered the batteries directly and they were really really discharged

Then I checked the water -AH-HA we are way, way down in the water department. Try about one gallon worth among three batteries.

Apparently this "slick" Dimensions battery charger has boiled out much of my battery water in only two months. This has given me more impetus to yank the thing out and replace it with a Xantrex.

Tomorrow I am going to Batteries Plus in Orlando and buying three Lifeline AGM batteries. No more water for me (on the boat I always used gels.)

Anyway - after I filled the batteries with water, the charger was pumping about 85 amps into the bank. This is a good thing.

Bye bye wet batteries!

--John

John_Canfield · 08-03-2005, 03:35 PM

Time to do a little work in the coach today. Opened the door and tried to turn the XM radio/RV Radio - nothing! Tried a light or two - nothing but flickers. Yes - the coach is plugged into shore power!

House batteries are reading 8 or 9 volts (YIKES!)

The Dimensions invertor/convertor is shut off due to low battery voltage (figure that one out.) When I did get it to start charging after connecting the engine and house batteries together briefly, it would only charge at a rate of about 15 amps - NOT GOOD!

I metered the batteries directly and they were really really discharged

Then I checked the water -AH-HA we are way, way down in the water department. Try about one gallon worth among three batteries.

Apparently this "slick" Dimensions battery charger has boiled out much of my battery water in only two months. This has given me more impetus to yank the thing out and replace it with a Xantrex.

Tomorrow I am going to Batteries Plus in Orlando and buying three Lifeline AGM batteries. No more water for me (on the boat I always used gels.)

Anyway - after I filled the batteries with water, the charger was pumping about 85 amps into the bank. This is a good thing.

Bye bye wet batteries!

--John

smlranger · 08-03-2005, 04:04 PM

John:

We won't be using our coach as much as you (darn) so I can't justify replacing the three Interstate RV batteries on mine with AGM...not yet, anyway. I keep my coach plugged in to a shore line and so far, no problem. I do have the Pro Fill manifolds so it is very easy to add water with the little pump. In the past 3 months, the batteries have only taken on a small amount of water. I have the Xantrex.

I did call the closest Batteries Plus (or Battery Mart) in my region and inquired about the Lifeline AGM. They were quick to recommend Douglas AGM as an alternative...they claimed Douglas was just as good and they were in stock. Lifeline was special order only.

BucknJeff · 08-03-2005, 04:57 PM

Hey John,

HOLD ON!

Don't go replacing those batteries until you get rid of that "Dimented" inverter/charger. As you have carefully suggested many times, it's a real p.o.s. Connecting those wonderful new batteries to that train-wreck of an inverter is a recipe for disaster. Do you really want to trust those new batteries to THAT thing?

As you may have guessed (and I think I told you) we replaced our Dimented inverter with a ProSine 2.0, and we love it. All of our inverter and hum/interference issues magically disappeared.

We threw the Dimensions inverter in the trash.
Couldn't bring myself to sell it to anyone.

Cheers,

Stan Birch · 08-03-2005, 06:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John_Canfield:
Tomorrow I am going to Batteries Plus in Orlando and buying three Lifeline AGM batteries. No more water for me (on the boat I always used gels.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
AGM batteries are not going to solve your problem. They are much less tolerant of overcharging than flooded wet cells. If your current charger is causing problems with wet cells, it will fry AGMs in short order. :-(

LK23 · 08-03-2005, 07:40 PM

I have had no problems with my Dimensions inverter. Maybe I am naive. What problems should I be looking for.

BucknJeff · 08-03-2005, 11:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LK23:
I have had no problems with my Dimensions inverter. Maybe I am naive. What problems should I be looking for. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears that these inverter/chargers suffer a greater failure rate than the previously installed Xantrex/Heart models. Frequently, this failure includes unregulated charging (under or over). It also appears that the charge algorithm for flooded batteries is flawed in several ways.

First, it contains a cyclically triggered "equalizing" or overcharging routine designed to help keep the batteries at their best. In theory, this was a great idea, but in practice, not so much. The problem occurs when people cycle their shore power connection (or generator) frequently triggering excessive "equalization" sessions, overcharging the batteries, and boiling the bedaylights out of them. This is to say nothing of the potential stress placed on the other 12VDC components routinely exposed to over-voltage due to this feature. Many other inverter/chargers (in fact, all that I am aware of that are currently commercially used in RV's) require you to manually initiate the equalization cycle so that you can prepare the electrical system, water and maintain the batteries, and decide when its necessary. Imagine what is happening to your batteries if your automatic equalization cycle occurs on a nice 100 degree day, after a hot, long drive.

Furthermore, these units seem to generate a great deal of electrical interference, notably present on TV's and the audio system. The interference seems present when charging as well as when inverting. This infers to me that the system is somewhat "dirty" in that it generates considerable noise. I realize that the output is "modified sine wave" while inverting, and that some hum is expected. But the charging portion is relatively dirty as well.

Winnebago had the Dimensions unit basically custom built for their purposes, and to their specifications. They have to appeal to a broad market, and I think they intended for this unit to be serviceable for the "general customer". Indeed, many people are less selective than me, and find no problem with it.

In my opinion, it's poorly conceived and poorly implemented. Winnebago would have saved themselves and their customer's great frustration and cost and just installed a decent sine-wave inverter/charger. On a wholesale basis, the cost difference is negligible. Think of the savings in warranty claims, service costs, and down time they would have saved. Not to mention the inconvenience to customers. As in so many other examples, I sincerely hope Winnebago learns from this experience, and makes positive changes. Given time and encouragement, they generally do.

I hope to encourage them!

troth · 08-04-2005, 01:26 AM

Well said BucknJeff, and I appreciate your candor. I don't think this is bashing, it's just telling it like it is. Wish the title of this thread said "Dimensions Inverter" so future searchers could find the info easily.

John_Canfield · 08-04-2005, 02:30 AM

Good suggestion Tom - the thread subject now has Dimensions Inverter!

I can't trust the batteries anymore since very low water causes irreparable harm to the batteries. Once the plates are uncovered, that's it! As I understand it, even rehydrating will not restore the capacity of the uncovered plate.

The Dimensions unit will be out the door shortly. It does have a setting for other than wet batteries, so it should be okay for the short period of time it will still be in use. Even when the coach was only a few days old, I was planning on replacing the Dimensions unit. Actually going to AGMs was also part of the plan; I just need to do it much sooner than I was anticipating.

Nice analysis BucknJeff!

--John

Tom N · 08-04-2005, 03:48 AM

Haven't had to add any water to the batteries in my 6 month old Suncruiser 38R. I've been plugged in all the time except for 2 weeks on the road. I never use the battery disconnect because we do not store the coach.

Cruzer · 08-04-2005, 04:20 AM

While not personally familiar with the Dimension inverter I am familiar with a few others.

First, the Xantrex Freedom 458 is a modified sine wave 2,000 watt inverter. It was pretty much the industry OEM standard and I had this on my Allegro Bus when I got it. It did not overcook the batteries and it never had a failure, although that can always happen. It's an "average" inverter/charger. My biggest issue was that it was modified sine wave.

On my 2003 Suncruiser I installed a Xantrex Prosine 2500 watt true sine wave inverter/charger. This was an excellent unit and never gave me a lick of trouble and always provided pure power. When I ran my microwave on the Freedom 458, the modified sine wave would make it groan more compared to the generator or shore power. Modified sine wave also doesn't treat electronics very well.

Shortly after I got my Bus I measured to see if I could replace my Freedom 458 with another Prosine. But, the Freedom 458 was somewhat cube shaped while the Prosine was more flat and spread out. It would have been a major chop job to get it to fit. Instead, I waited until the new Xantrex RS2000 cam out, which was earlier this spring. I then installed it into my Bus, replaceing the Freedom 458.

The RS2000 is a true sine wave inverter. It's basically the same physical dimensions as the Freedom 458 so it's an easy swap. It's also less money than the older Prosine design. I now have true sine wave power. This system also uses the new Xanbus network topology. It's like an Ethernet cable except the pinouts are different. It talks to other devices so I picked up the new Xanbus enabled Automatic Generator Start, and a System Control Panel. This is a very slick system.

If you want to replace your inverter I'd highly recommend looking at the RS2000 (or even RS3000) on the Xantrex website. I bought mine at http://www.donrowe.com and am quite pleased with it.

LK23 · 08-04-2005, 05:52 AM

BunknJeff and Cruzer,

Thanks for the great replies. In ballpark figures, how expensive are the better inverters? How difficult to replace? Does it impact anything on Winnebago's energy management system?

Cruzer · 08-04-2005, 08:41 AM

DonRowe presently have the RS2000 at $1,516.00 and they also include the System Control Panel, which you have to have. Most dealers charge another hundred for that.

It was a simple bolt-in replacement except that I had to run a better cat5 cable to the new remote panel (System Control Panel) rather than the basic phone wire cable that was used in the Freedom 458.

It does not affect the EMS one bit. The EMS interfaces with a DC module inside the breaker panel, which is untouched.

As long as you can get the cat5 control cable to wherever you decide to place the System Control Panel you'll be fine.

Jeanne M. · 08-04-2005, 09:53 AM

We haven't had any problem with our inverter either. No hum that I've noticed.

Like LK23...what should we be looking for besides the hum?

John_Canfield · 08-04-2005, 12:43 PM

Jeanne - The very first time I pulled out the house battery tray on the new coach I could see evidence of the acid bubbling out on the inside battery. And I don't think I ever noticed the charger go to 0 amps charge (no 12V load). I don't know why, but apparently the Dimensions charger was cooking my house batteries.

BucknJeff presented a very good summary about the limitations of the stock inverter/charger. So... what does this mean to you (and Rex)... if you notice evidence of the batteries gassing (acid bubbling out of the fill/vent caps), then maybe you have a bad battery (or two) or a charger issue. If you notice no other anomaly (no hum in TV, no high failure rate of electronics while on inverter) then maybe you are a great candidate to do nothing.

For me as a techie-nerdie, I want a pure sine wave inverter and a very, very intelligent battery charger for my 600$ worth of brand-new AGM batteries.

Okay - speaking of the new batteries! Yes - I picked them up this morning (Concord Lifeline group 31 AGM) and swapped them out for the factory Interstates. Later this afternoon I noticed on the Dimensions panel that with no 12V house load (to speak of), the charger was for the very first time in float mode with 0 amps output! Halleluiah!

I have a great deal on group 31 Interstates for you: Free - you pay shipping!

--John

John_Canfield · 08-04-2005, 12:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">... How difficult to replace? ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Rex - I think a swap-out of the Dimensions for the RS2000 would be a reasonably straightforward job. It appears that the Dimensions uses Cat5 from the main box to the remote panel. From what I can determine, all existing wiring can be reused. I will call Xantrex when the moment gets closer and pick their brain about the swap-out.

I'll take pictures of the surgery when I get to this project.

--John

LK23 · 08-04-2005, 03:43 PM

John,

Are you planning to swap out the Dimensions control panel for the RS2000 control panel? If so, are they the same size? Are you planning to run Cat5 cable?

I will probably wait until I see evidence that my Dimensions is damaging my batteries before I replace it. It's good to gather this information in advance and I'm especially interested to see how your installtion goes.

Cruzer · 08-04-2005, 05:47 PM

REgarding the cat5 cable:

I was told that you have to use the Xantrex cat5 cable assembly because they differ in their pinouts from the standard Ethernet pinout. However, I have a cat5 network cable crimp kit and I make my own cables all the time. The Xantrex pinouts are shown in the RS2000 manual so as long as you can crimp new ends onto the existing cat5 cable you'll be all right. Then again, maybe the Dimensions cat5 cable is wired the same way and you won't have to do anything. Something to keep in mind and check on before you plug stuff in and power it up.

John_Canfield · 08-05-2005, 02:56 AM

Rex & Mark - Yes - the Xantrex control panel is only a little larger than the Dimensions panel and I will swap it out.

Dimensions uses an eight conductor control cable which as Mark points may or may not have the same pinouts as Cat5/Xantrex. BTW, there are two wiring standards for Cat5 - "A" and "B". Standards are wonderful - I'm glad we have so many of them

I have a crimper and extra plugs so I can change the cable as needed.

Rex - another reason I wanted to go with Xantrex is that their automatic genny start control easily integrates with the Xantrex buss. It is just another add-on panel that will start the genny in user-defined situations (low house batteries, A/C demand, and others I can't remember.) I think the auto genny start can be easily wired into the "OnePlace" center since the gen start switch is right there.

--John

Cruzer · 08-05-2005, 04:12 AM

Yes, the AGS module is an easy fit with the RS2000. All of the Xanbus devices communicate via the network and everything is connected in a daisy chain (in no particular order) and each end of the chain is fitted with a simple RJ-45 plug-in terminating resistor. You do not need to mount the AGS module where you can see it. Mine is mounted in the basement right under the driver's door where it's easy access to the various 12 volt wires it interfaces with. Any device that is added will show up on the System Control Panel, so the only thing that needs to be in a handy place is the SCP, and that only requires the cat5 cable to feed it.

More Xanbus devices will be enabled in the future. From what I gather, other manufacturers are using the same network protocols (there was a recent article in the FMCA or MotorHome mags on this) so products from Silverleaf and other vendors will also interface. I'll probably have to add them as they become available just because it'd be cool to install them.