Vista Electrical Problem, continued

thirty · 07-01-2020, 02:02 PM

2014 Vista 31KE - second owner. Purchased in early 2019.

Everything has worked without an issue until this spring just before our first trip. The generator and been operated several times throughout the winter with and without an electrical load.

Condition:
with good batteries fully charged, the coach battery switch wouldn’t turn on 12vDC power on the RV. Replaced solenoid and the problem was still present. 110vAC seems unaffected.

I read many threads about the solenoid etc and discovered I should have had 12vDC power whenever connected to shore power or the generator. I’d often wondered why the coach batteries drained without an external charger in place.

I tracked down the converter and found it was unplugged. It’s a Inteli-Power 9245C. Since the 12vDC wasn’t turning on, I connected a Honda EU2000 to the coach and used a heavy extension cord to plug the converter in. Voila, the 12vDC now works, along with 110vAC components. The previously mentioned coach battery switch has a green LED indicator light that now lights up like it used to when the 12vDC would turn on.

However, despite batteries at full charge, the Onan generator acts like there’s insufficient volts to start. All the interior lights go dead when I engage the starter. See previous comment about the generator running without issue many times this past winter.

Secondly, the 110 cord on the converter is less than 3 feet long and the nearest outlet is at least 3.5 feet away. Has anyone else had this problem?

Thanks for your input.

Morich · 07-01-2020, 02:30 PM

Some questions to ask? How do you determine batteries are at full charge? By voltage, it is easy to get a fault feeling that they are charged and good if we do not let the charge "settle" for several hours. Look for info on surface charge.
Do you first start the engine before trying to start the genset? If you have weak batteries, the added power from the engine alternator plus the two battery strings being tied together is often enough to get it going.
If generator cranks much better when the engine is started/running first, I definitely see indication of low or bad battery and would want to verify all battery condition but not with a first look voltage as it can mislead us. While checking voltage is easy, it is not really reliable as a load test or specific gravity. Looking before the engine is started, there will normally be a different voltage on the coach battery string and the start battery and then if things are working right, you can start the engine and see both strings come up to around 14 volts as it is supplied from the alternator and there should be a connection made between the two strings to allow charging both as we drive.
The converter will charge the coach battery when AC is present but the engine alternator does it when no AC.
Finding the converter unplugged sounds like a plan to disguise a problem before sale. I might favor leaving it unplugged until I found more info on battery condition and that the other charge was working as designed.
I like to work a problem in small sections, getting past the smaller parts rather than the confusing whole ball of wax.

thirty · 07-01-2020, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

Some questions to ask? How do you determine batteries are at full charge? By voltage, it is easy to get a fault feeling that they are charged and good if we do not let the charge "settle" for several hours. Look for info on surface charge.

Do you first start the engine before trying to start the genset? If you have weak batteries, the added power from the engine alternator plus the two battery strings being tied together is often enough to get it going.

Well, I tried to start the Onan with the Honda supplying the 110 power and the engine running. The 12v power acted like I was trying to run two air conditioners off 12v!

If generator cranks much better when the engine is started/running first, I definitely see indication of low or bad battery and would want to verify all battery condition but not with a first look voltage as it can mislead us. While checking voltage is easy, it is not really reliable as a load test or specific gravity. Looking before the engine is started, there will normally be a different voltage on the coach battery string and the start battery and then if things are working right, you can start the engine and see both strings come up to around 14 volts as it is supplied from the alternator and there should be a connection made between the two strings to allow charging both as we drive.
The converter will charge the coach battery when AC is present but the engine alternator does it when no AC.
Finding the converter unplugged sounds like a plan to disguise a problem before sale. I might favor leaving it unplugged until I found more info on battery condition and that the other charge was working as designed.
I like to work a problem in small sections, getting past the smaller parts rather than the confusing whole ball of wax.

Thanks Morich.

The batteries were left for about 2 hours without a charge and showed 12.8 on a voltmeter.

I’m with you on winning small battles. However with the converter unplugged, I have zero 12v power. With it plugged in, I have 12vDC which is kinda the same original problem. I’ve replaced the solenoid and the battery shutoff relay and still zero 12v power.

I’m not sure the converter has ever been plugged in, since there isn’t a 110 outlet within its reach and it’s a factory installed item. I used a heavy extension cord to test it and it gives me 12v power and 110 power (when the Honda is connected).

Winterbagoal · 07-01-2020, 03:03 PM

So, the question is who/when/why was the converter charger unplugged?
Rough roads and a flaky plug? If everything was working until recently, that's a puzzle.

thirty · 07-01-2020, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterbagoal

So, the question is who/when/why was the converter charger unplugged?
Rough roads and a flaky plug? If everything was working until recently, that's a puzzle.

Puzzled doesn’t begin to describe this.

I know the only way the coach batteries were ever charged since I had it was thru a battery charger/maintainer that I installed because it wasn’t charging on its own.

I found the converter unplugged today and there’s no way it could have been plugged directly into the 110 system since there’s no outlet within its own cord reach. Also, the fans are clean. Doesn’t appear to have ever been turned on.

So, that’s the relative easy problem. The bigger issue is with the 12vDC system.

Morich · 07-01-2020, 04:17 PM

I'm afraid both of us are into a big transition period at Winnebago and not all the info online is good for what they actually did. I have a 2015 and found numerous items do not match the drawings, so we need to keep a really open mind when looking.
Since you have seen your converter (I've not) maybe you can look to see if part of the drawings for your unit match what you see. I suspect they will not because looking at two different drawings < see one a converter 45 amp and the other shows a load center with ATS (auto transfer switch)
Maybe look at the two drawings and try to spot which might be true for your setup?
My thought was to see where they thought they plugged the converter (they show none!) on the yellow item in the right drawing and in the left they show load center and ats???? Left is from inside as if looking through the cabinet toward the door. Right is as if outside the door looking in through things with the switches the small green items. I would also guess you have fuses and breakers in a load center there, just above the steps?

Difference is the right shows no load center. Hard to do without one? Left shows load center but no converter?

The left drawing is from sheet three this link:
https://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram...ire_184480.pdf The other is often a great set of drawings but has to have a program download to get it.

Got a thought on which or what you might see?

Morich · 07-01-2020, 04:22 PM

Whoops! Preview shows pictures left/right but post is up and down.
Oh well!
Also the color bottom pic shows two purple items listed as relays and those are likely to be involved with the converter and 12 volt----if you have them?

SLOweather · 07-01-2020, 04:31 PM

I have a 2014 Sunstar 31KE. My converter is under the kitchen cabinet aft of the entry stairs as shown in the picture. I was in there to install the inverter on the inside of the outer wall.

As I recall, my converter is hardwired to the breaker panel, bottom 15 amp breaker. (When I installed the inverter/charger, I left the converter in place as a backup, and flipped its AC breaker off, and pulled the DC side fuse.)

Thirty, check your breaker panel and see if there is one labeled CONV or CONVERTER. It sounds to me like the P.O. had to replace the converter, and never finished wiring it to the breaker, neutral bus, or ground bus.

thirty · 07-01-2020, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

I'm afraid both of us are into a big transition period at Winnebago and not all the info online is good for what they actually did. I have a 2015 and found numerous items do not match the drawings, so we need to keep a really open mind when looking.
Since you have seen your converter (I've not) maybe you can look to see if part of the drawings for your unit match what you see. I suspect they will not because looking at two different drawings < see one a converter 45 amp and the other shows a load center with ATS (auto transfer switch)
Maybe look at the two drawings and try to spot which might be true for your setup?
My thought was to see where they thought they plugged the converter (they show none!) on the yellow item in the right drawing and in the left they show load center and ats???? Left is from inside as if looking through the cabinet toward the door. Right is as if outside the door looking in through things with the switches the small green items. I would also guess you have fuses and breakers in a load center there, just above the steps?

Difference is the right shows no load center. Hard to do without one? Left shows load center but no converter?

The left drawing is from sheet three this link:
https://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram...ire_184480.pdf The other is often a great set of drawings but has to have a program download to get it.

Got a thought on which or what you might see?

Thanks Morich. I have several things on my wiring diagram that aren’t actually on the RV. My converter is a 9245C model.

thirty · 07-01-2020, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

Whoops! Preview shows pictures left/right but post is up and down.
Oh well!
Also the color bottom pic shows two purple items listed as relays and those are likely to be involved with the converter and 12 volt----if you have them?

My converter sits where the yellow one is depicted. But, I haven’t seen those relays.

Morich · 07-01-2020, 04:42 PM

Different drawing! Those are on the 12 Volt DC not 110 AC.
The relays are not what we need .
Link to drawing
https://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram...ire_184479.pdf

I now suspect you may have the system I have with no auto transfer switch. Do you go to the electric cord and unplug it to go to shore power and plug it back in an outlet in the bay?

thirty · 07-01-2020, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOweather

I have a 2014 Sunstar 31KE. My converter is under the kitchen cabinet aft of the entry stairs as shown in the picture. I was in there to install the inverter on the inside of the outer wall.

As I recall, my converter is hardwired to the breaker panel, bottom 15 amp breaker. (When I installed the inverter/charger, I left the converter in place as a backup, and flipped its AC breaker off, and pulled the DC side fuse.)

Thirty, check your breaker panel and see if there is one labeled CONV or CONVERTER. It sounds to me like the P.O. had to replace the converter, and never finished wiring it to the breaker, neutral bus, or ground bus.

SLO, I’ll check that out and see. I’ve looked but can’t remember what’s labeled what. I’m not sure on the previous owner. I’ve got receipts for his repairs. He was meticulous about keeping stuff like that, thankfully. I might suspect a replacement if there was an outlet close. There’s nothing for the converter to plug in to. Where is yours plugged in to?

SLOweather · 07-01-2020, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thirty

SLO, I’ll check that out and see. I’ve looked but can’t remember what’s labeled what. I’m not sure on the previous owner. I’ve got receipts for his repairs. He was meticulous about keeping stuff like that, thankfully. I might suspect a replacement if there was an outlet close. There’s nothing for the converter to plug in to. Where is yours plugged in to?

Quote:

As I recall, my converter is hardwired to the breaker panel, bottom 15 amp breaker.

In both this motorhome, and our previous Suncruiser, the factory apparently cut the plug off the cord and wired it directly to the AC panel. No plug...

Morich · 07-01-2020, 04:53 PM

Maybe a clue to the converter is on the load center?
Does this look like what you have?

SLOweather · 07-01-2020, 05:07 PM

That's where mine is...

thirty · 07-01-2020, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

Different drawing! Those are on the 12 Volt DC not 110 AC.
The relays are not what we need .
Link to drawing
https://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram...ire_184479.pdf

I now suspect you may have the system I have with no auto transfer switch. Do you go to the electric cord and unplug it to go to shore power and plug it back in an outlet in the bay?

This diagram is the correct one for me. However, it doesn’t depict where the converter should be plugged in to. And, you are correct in the fact I have no auto transfer switch. I unplug the 30amp service from the generator and plug into the campsite pedestal if I want to use their power. Vice versa when finished camping.

thirty · 07-01-2020, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOweather

In both this motorhome, and our previous Suncruiser, the factory apparently cut the plug off the cord and wired it directly to the AC panel. No plug...

Interesting. I have a 15 amp breaker labeled “CONV”

thirty · 07-01-2020, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morich

Maybe a clue to the converter is on the load center?
Does this look like what you have?

Pretty close ...

SLOweather · 07-01-2020, 05:25 PM

OK, you are missing my point. There is NO outlet for the converter to plug into. The plug has been cut off the converter cord, and it is wired directly into the breaker panel.

thirty · 07-01-2020, 05:39 PM

Well Morich and SLO...

I can mark the dilemma of the converter off my list. I found an outlet going into the rear of the AC side of the CB panel. That’s plugged in and works. Thanks for your input on that.

Still have the DC side that’s not working independently of the converter if you all have any more ideas.