The sad state of the RV industry....

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by MIDMONDN

I have got a group question. What is the best made most reliable RV out there?

Personally, I believe it's the luck of the draw. You can get a lemon in a million-dollar rig, and likewise you can get a gem in the lowest-priced Class C. Brand doesn't seem to matter; all the manufacturers have issues.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by millsrv

It seems to me that we are very capable of making great products in this country but fail to do so unless the competition forces us to. What incentive do RV manufacturers have to improve quality? Apparently we will continue to buy them no matter how poorly they are thrown together.

It took foreign competition in the auto industry to force the US auto makers to make better autos. I wonder if we will soon see foreign made RVs. Is there a Toyota or Honda Class C RV in our future?

[bbbrr]

I watched the same thing happen to the boating industry here in my town. Same scenarios same complaints. With this millennial generation starting to get into this lifestyle, they had better fix themselves quick.

[akeagle]

Originally Posted by millsrv

I always purchase Toyotas simply because they cause me zero grief and do what a vehicle is supposed to. One day my coworkers were giving me a bad time about not buying American and I pointed out that the Winnebago was made in America and cost 3 times more than my Toyota. They did not have much to say after that.

While you make valid points about the past dismal quality of American cars, I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around your comparison of the cost of your Toyota vs the cost of a Winnebago. Isn't that comparing apples and oranges?

[jhedges]

I believe the RV industry will take a major overall after the next large sustained increase in gas prices. This will reduce the number of RV manufacture's. Today, you can buy, a Montana, Zinger, Outback just to name a few. There are hundreds of different brands. Instead of concentrating on making a few brands good, they make a lot of brands bad.

As a result we can get a bad RV cheap, and many people are willing to purchase bad RV's cheap. Few RV manufactures can stay in business building quality RV's that most of us cannot afford. They are out there, but not many of us can spend $500,000+ on a RV.

Winnebago struggles to build a 28' foot pull behind trailer with a higher than normal quality build and price it to be competitive. Many other manufacturers build a 28 foot pull behind with many more bells and whistles with far less quality build, and yet priced way below Winnebago's price.

What happens. More people buy the less costly 28 foot pull behind because on the surface, there is more bells and whistles. Are they aware of the many quality features with a Winnebago? No, do they care? Not when they're looking at the price difference.

I do believe any RV manufacture is capable of building an RV that is "Toyota" like in quality, never breaks, always works, but none of us would be able to buy one. Corners have to be cut, when there are so many alternatives out there today. Even Winnebago has been caught up in it. They have tried to do the right things with their "in-house" manufacturing, however in the long run it's just not enough.

When the business principle of building as many units as you can in as little time changes, we will continue to have what we have today.

We all can't afford a Prevost.

[jhedges]

Now what Winnebago should be doing right now is studying Japanese manufacturing techniques concerning robots along with first in first out manufacturing. That's how they can increase quality and increase output. You cannot continue to "get them out quickly with quality" having a bunch of Amish behind the tool.

European RV manufacturing is not the answer. Look at their cars. Especially the British, god forbid you ever buy a British automobile!

Meanwhile, I'll continue to camp in my Vista, hope nothing major happens so I can sit my the fire, drink beer and roast a couple of hot dogs and marshmallows. All while occasionally petting my Lab. Course she doesn't like the campfire much.

[SamFye]

All it takes for better quality RVs is for the Japanese to start making RVs. Remember what happened to the car industry when Toyota and Honda brought in total quality management - the us automakers were forced to make better products in order to survive. The Cummins engines and Allison transmissions are very reliable components of an RV because they have to compete with foreign competition.

[millsrv]

Originally Posted by akeagle

While you make valid points about the past dismal quality of American cars, I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around your comparison of the cost of your Toyota vs the cost of a Winnebago. Isn't that comparing apples and oranges?

I was not comparing the two. I was simply pointing out to my coworkers that I did not want any grief about not buying American as I had spent north of 85 grand for my new American made Winnebago.

[akeagle]

Originally Posted by jhedges

Now what Winnebago should be doing right now is studying Japanese manufacturing techniques concerning robots along with first in first out manufacturing. That's how they can increase quality and increase output. You cannot continue to "get them out quickly with quality" having a bunch of Amish behind the tool.

European RV manufacturing is not the answer. Look at their cars. Especially the British, god forbid you ever buy a British automobile!

Meanwhile, I'll continue to camp in my Vista, hope nothing major happens so I can sit my the fire, drink beer and roast a couple of hot dogs and marshmallows. All while occasionally petting my Lab. Course she doesn't like the campfire much.

Your mention of Japanese manufacturing techniques spurred a memory of receiving training on Six Sigma quite a few years ago when I worked for Home Depot. The HD CEO had just come over from GE (where he was passed over for CEO of that company) and totally believed that Six Sigma would revolutionize HD's way of doing business (it didn't because Six Sigma is most effective in manufacturing which is not what HD does). Anyway, we learned that in post WWII Japan was infamous for making cheap products that either didn't work or broke down quickly. In stepped an American manufacturing expert named Demming (can't remember his first name) who showed the Japanese how to set up their manufacturing and quality control processes so they could quickly discover a problem, trace it back to it's source, and fix it. Fast forward to the 1970s and we saw that the Japanese learned the lessons well while American businesses appeared to become more interested in executive compensation and shareholder value while relegating quality control to a virtual afterthought.

Thus it seems you're right on target, the Japanese learned and advanced, while American businesses forgot and regressed. Actually I suggest greed is now the driving factor in American business and perhaps the regression is a natural byproduct of that. It's too bad they can't seem to break the mindset of personal power and wealth. I, for one, would be willing to pay reasonable prices for quality products.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by akeagle

Your mention of Japanese manufacturing techniques spurred a memory of receiving training on Six Sigma quite a few years ago when I worked for Home Depot. The HD CEO had just come over from GE (where he was passed over for CEO of that company) and totally believed that Six Sigma would revolutionize HD's way of doing business (it didn't because Six Sigma is most effective in manufacturing which is not what HD does). Anyway, we learned that in post WWII Japan was infamous for making cheap products that either didn't work or broke down quickly. In stepped an American manufacturing expert named Demming (can't remember his first name) who showed the Japanese how to set up their manufacturing and quality control processes so they could quickly discover a problem, trace it back to it's source, and fix it. Fast forward to the 1970s and we saw that the Japanese learned the lessons well while American businesses appeared to become more interested in executive compensation and shareholder value while relegating quality control to a virtual afterthought.

Thus it seems you're right on target, the Japanese learned and advanced, while American businesses forgot and regressed. Actually I suggest greed is now the driving factor in American business and perhaps the regression is a natural byproduct of that. It's too bad they can't seem to break the mindset of personal power and wealth. I, for one, would be willing to pay reasonable prices for quality products.

The gentleman's name was William Edwards Deming.

I suspect that are are relatively unique in your willingness to pay more. Least expensive seems to largely be the rule in most things and brand names in others.

One particular memory came back to me when I read your post. Back in the 1970s when I was much younger and in college I wanted to buy a stereo set. Most of the best stereos were Japanese and Sylvania had developed an American designed and built stereo that met or exceeded all of the specs of the Japanese stereos, but you could not find it in the stores because everyone wanted the known Japanese names. The Synvania system was every bit as good as any available, better than most in its tech specs, but no one wanted it because the Japanese sets had gotten such a great reputation.

[millsrv]

Does anyone suspect that Winnebago Executives and possibly other manufacturer executives read these posts?

I am considering sending Jeff Bezos (Amazon's CEO) a letter suggesting they look at the RV Business. Can you imagine that? I'll bet that would get attention form all of the "Fat Cat" RV CEO's especially with free 2 day shipping and a no hassle return policy, LOL.

[Cooperhawk]

I am quite familiar with Demming as the US govy attempted to use some of his ideas in management. I don't believe it worked out as well as they expected.

Someone mentioned the perhaps Winnebago should use robots on their assembly line and someone else said they thought they used Amish.

While there may be some Amish, they are few as most of the citizens of Forest City work there, and BTW, all seem quite happy with their jobs.

Robots work on a line that produces basically the same vehicle on one line. Winnebago would have a problem with that as the assembly lines are a mix of different units moving through with computers delivering parts to each assembly point on time. I have never seen two units alike on the same line.

What they have works pretty well. Go see for yourself.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by millsrv

especially with free 2 day shipping and a no hassle return policy, LOL.

Yes, but I am pretty sure it will not fit into my mailbox and there really is not enough space at my front door to leave that package. Besides, it would be a lot of trouble to get rid of that "frustration-free" packaging material.

[sammax]

So much Bull!! I was told in Oregon to take my coach back to where I purchased it.
(In Florida)….The insurance I purchased was a waste because the dealer wouldn't accept it. Also said he it probably would be the end of Summer if he wanted to do it. Needless to say, I won't ever buy a coach from that dealer...

[Fasttimes]

Originally Posted by MIDMONDN

I have got a group question. What is the best made most reliable RV out there?

When I was at Lazy Days RV center in Tampa a while back picking up my trailer I was talking with a service manager about if he owned an RV or would consider one. We got to talking about how they all leak eventually and that they are all basically hand made and have issues from one to the other brand.

He mentioned that his service guys in the bays mostly said if they were going to buy one they would get a Lance. That for some reason they were built to a better standard than the other brands on their lot. I have been looking at the Lance ads lately in my monthly "Trailer Life" subscription and they do seem to put out some innovative ideas on their trailers. They have a new 2465 model that is out that seems pretty sharp. Smaller than I'd like, but sure is nice.

[SamFye]

Go to RVReviews.net and you will see motorhomes rated in different categories. They also rate RV trailers I pay for the motorhome ratings about every two years because there is a ton of good information on construction, chassis types, history, resale values, etc.

[DHE]

I found the article “RV OWNERS SHARE THE BLAME” very interesting reading and very true.

[AJMike]

I have to say that I am not so sure that the article is "very true" as there was quite a bit in that section of the blog that I found either over-simplified or simply inaccurate. Cases in point:

Most are RVs are driven on highways at about 60+ mph. The author makes a big deal that 60 mph is not "hurricane force winds" but that is simply nit picking. The point of the saying that an RV is a home constantly undergoing an earthquake and being hit by hurricane force winds is that it is constantly shaking and constantly being hit with strong winds. 60-65 mph winds is close enough to "hurricane force" that to argue is to quibble.

Then there is the complaint that users don't check out RV parks before they stay. Well, we do, and I am sure lots of others do as well. We typically drive through the park before we pay to stay and if we don't like the park, or the location, we go somewhere else.

Then there is the complaint that users look at RVs at one dealer, buy online or somewhere else and then complain about the lack of service. First, the cost of doing warranty work is paid for my the manufacturer and not the dealer, so it should not matter where you get the warranty work done. Second, where I live the dealers are so busy that even if you bought your RV at that dealer you can not get service in any timely fashion.

Then there is the comment that users don't check out forums before buying. I suspect most don't know that the forums even exist and, even if they do, often the forums are full of complaints because people whose RV is working properly are probably not on the forum talking about how great the RV is. Most of the comments on the forum are due to issues and problems tend to be over represented on most of the forums I have followed.

Lastly it costs more to produce a quality RV than one of lesser quality. Some of the manufacturers, in an attempt to make sure their RVs sell for a low enough cost to be affordable, tend to use unskilled labor and hence the quality of the RV is lower than it should be. All of that is true, but it is pretty much true of anything make in the western world and is not some fault of the RV makers. People who buy have budgets and most will not buy something completely out of their budget. Why does the author consider this to be an RV issue when it is an issue for almost everything that is made.

[millsrv]

Originally Posted by AJMike

I have to say that I am not so sure that the article is "very true" as there was quite a bit in that section of the blog that I found either over-simplified or simply inaccurate. Cases in point:

Most are RVs are driven on highways at about 60+ mph. The author makes a big deal that 60 mph is not "hurricane force winds" but that is simply nit picking. The point of the saying that an RV is a home constantly undergoing an earthquake and being hit by hurricane force winds is that it is constantly shaking and constantly being hit with strong winds. 60-65 mph winds is close enough to "hurricane force" that to argue is to quibble.

Then there is the complaint that users don't check out RV parks before they stay. Well, we do, and I am sure lots of others do as well. We typically drive through the park before we pay to stay and if we don't like the park, or the location, we go somewhere else.

Then there is the complaint that users look at RVs at one dealer, buy online or somewhere else and then complain about the lack of service. First, the cost of doing warranty work is paid for my the manufacturer and not the dealer, so it should not matter where you get the warranty work done. Second, where I live the dealers are so busy that even if you bought your RV at that dealer you can not get service in any timely fashion.

Then there is the comment that users don't check out forums before buying. I suspect most don't know that the forums even exist and, even if they do, often the forums are full of complaints because people whose RV is working properly are probably not on the forum talking about how great the RV is. Most of the comments on the forum are due to issues and problems tend to be over represented on most of the forums I have followed.

Lastly it costs more to produce a quality RV than one of lesser quality. Some of the manufacturers, in an attempt to make sure their RVs sell for a low enough cost to be affordable, tend to use unskilled labor and hence the quality of the RV is lower than it should be. All of that is true, but it is pretty much true of anything make in the western world and is not some fault of the RV makers. People who buy have budgets and most will not buy something completely out of their budget. Why does the author consider this to be an RV issue when it is an issue for almost everything that is made.

Good points, but also worth noting is that the RV manufacturers usually pay less than the dealers labor rate for repairs and therefore the dealer puts warranty repairs behind higher profit customers.

In addition after reading and posting on RV Forums I do believe that yes, you do tend to see more negative news as opposed to good news (everything is great) which makes sense as people are looking for solutions. That said, this can help identify RV's and RV systems that are problematic and to be avoided. Reading the forums can also make you downright scared of RV's.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by millsrv

Good points, but also worth noting is that the RV manufacturers usually pay less than the dealers labor rate for repairs and therefore the dealer puts warranty repairs behind higher profit customers.

I am sure you are right, and I think it makes sense for a local dealer to handle its own customers first to keep them loyal, but where I live the only Winnebago dealer that actually has RVs makes no distinction between those who purchased an RV with them and those that did not. It takes 6 weeks in the winter to get a service appointment, regardless of where you bought your RV and I think that that is unreasonable. So much so that when we had a problem with the fridge in our new RV I ended up taking it to the local refrigerator dealer for service, and they fixed it under warranty.

Originally Posted by millsrv

In addition after reading and posting on RV Forums I do believe that yes, you do tend to see more negative news as opposed to good news (everything is great) which makes sense as people are looking for solutions. That said, this can help identify RV's and RV systems that are problematic and to be avoided. Reading the forums can also make you downright scared of RV's.

I agree that you can get a sense of the relative quality of RVs by reading forums, but I also think that comes with a bit of experience in reading the posts. If someone just happens to find an RV forum and starts to read the posts I would think that they would just want to stop even thinking about RVS since the posts tend to either be a constant stream of problems seeking solutions or so technical that those who are not mechanically inclined would shy away from getting an RV.

Our new RV is probably a case in point. We bought a new (last year's model, but new) Winnebago Fuse and it came with an AC/DC only refrigerator freezer that would not keep its temperature. The freezer would cycle between -6 F and +38 F and when I tried to make an appointment with our local dealer I was told it would take 5-6 weeks to get it in, and then another couple of weeks to get it fixed (apparently they do not actually start working on an RV when you drop it off. You first have to get them to take it, and then they work through their queue of RVs), so we took it to the Norcold dealer and they fixed it. I had to pay for the diagnostic, but Winnebago reimbursed me for that charge so it got fixed quickly and properly. Other than the thermistor issue in the refrigerator the RV has not had any issues.

So I posted about the refrigerator issue trying to find out what the problem might be, and there was a lively discussion about different refrigerator types, electric and propane, and no resolution. After it was fixed I never much posted about a properly operating RV, so a casual reader might well feel that RVs were just prone to refrigerator issues and be scared off.

One last comment. I bought our RV locally because I wanted to keep our local dealer healthy and operating so I could count on getting service and getting another down the road, but the time it takes to get my RV serviced with them is so ridiculously long that I have begun to think that perhaps I was mistaken in buying it here. If I can not get it serviced locally in any reasonable time frame, why bother doing so? And perhaps if and when we buy another I might just decide to go to one of the large remote dealers like Lichtsinn to get it. Buying locally has not been beneficial to us in terms of service, so what is the point?