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Old 12-08-2018, 05:11 AM   #1
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The sad state of the RV industry....

Recently I've started to research why the RV industry seems to be so broken, with so many reports of issues in new RVs and the common acceptance that it's "ok" because that is the way things are. I came across this series of articles that I found very interesting.If' you've never read this series put out a few years ago by Greg Gerber, a RV journalist for the RV Daily Report and an RV owner it's an eye opener.



Thought I'd share:



Part 1: Opinion: The RV industry death spiral: Opinion: The RV industry death spiral – Part 1 | RV Daily Report

Part 2: Manufactures in race to the bottom: RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 2: Manufacturers in race to the bottom | RV Daily Report

Part 3: Suppliers in a tough spot: RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 3: Suppliers in a tough spot | RV Daily Report

Part 4: Dealer drop the ball on service: RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 4: Dealers drop the ball on service | RV Daily Report

Part 5: Campgrounds loosing capacity: RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 5: Campgrounds losing capacity | RV Daily Report

Part 6: Associations can influence change: RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 6: Associations can influence change | RV Daily Report

Part 7: RV owners share the blame: RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 7: RV owners share the blame | RV Daily Report

Part 8: RV media falls asleep: RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 8: RV media falls asleep | RV Daily Report




Something needs to change in my opinion, it's out of control.
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Old 12-08-2018, 08:12 AM   #2
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I have not yet read all of the posts, but the first one did not fill me with confidence that the writer was being either reasonable or rational. Cases in point:

But, if there are just as many RV-owning households today as there were in 1997 — despite the flood of 5.7 million new RVs into the market during that time — then there were a heck of a lot of RVs junked in 18 years.

There are a lot of old RVs that I see in people's yards, no longer being used on the road (and hence not licensed or countable) but being used for some to live in. So, what point is the author trying to make? I don't see it. RV sales seem to me to be heavily dependent upon the price of fuel and the general economy, and it seems to me that there are many more smaller RVs on the road today and that sales are growing, not staying stable.

Is the author counting travel trailers or pop-ups. We see far more of those at local campgrounds than we saw 10 years ago.

When the industry cheers the defeat of Lemon Law legislation, it conversely conveys the message to consumers that it is willing to tolerate imposing products that don’t work and can’t be fixed on unsuspecting buyers.

Exactly how is this different from the auto dealers? They do the exact same thing in opposing Lemon Laws, and cars have just as many issues as RVs, and service is just as bad, but no one is predicting that the auto industry is going to the wall.

When compared to 9 million RV-owning households, people employed in the industry equate to just 3.2 percent of people who own RVs.

So? RVs are very expensive, and a true luxury item, so why does the fact that few of the poorly paid employees in the industry can afford one come as a surprise?

my guess is they have never had to experience the pain of getting an RV serviced or in making a campground reservation.

Well, personally I have not had any pain in getting an RV serviced, although I do not try to do that through the dealer unless it is a warranty issue. As for pain in getting a campground reservation, that is something I have not seen at all, except in some very desirable locations. Generally I find that campgrounds are empty when we stop, but then we are retired and travel during the week and start and stop early.

I admit I need to read the remaining articles, but I do not see the "horror" of what the author has written. Has anyone else? Yes, RVs often have issues, and I expect to have those issues fixed during the warranty period, but RVs are homes that are usually subject to constant vibration, so where is the surprise here?

To me this just sounds like one more "The sky is falling" posting, but then perhaps I am alone in this view.
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Old 12-08-2018, 08:55 AM   #3
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I have not read these articles as it is not something that comes to the top of my list, but there is one thing that I have noted in most anything I read. It pays to read more than one source as there is almost always a "slant" to what is written. So that leaves me to ask why the "slant"?
One reason for that is the way we shop for advise, perhaps? Do we look for a steady, reliable source of information or do we more often look at articles that catch our eye? I know I am guilty of looking in on this posting simply because it had an interesting title!
So, when a writer is trying to make a living, it is pretty important to up the sales/interest by having a position which catching more interest, not the normal stable ideas and thinking. If you're not screaming, you are not selling the product!
So we get pretty much what we deserve when we simply look at one spot and believe without looking, asking, and researching lots of information, whether we agree or disagree with that info. We don't learn a thing when we only look at one view, we just get the "feel good" idea that the world agrees with us!
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:02 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morich View Post
we just get the "feel good" idea that the world agrees with us!
Or that we disagree with what is written.

I agree with what you said, but find nothing that I have read so far that is the least convincing to me. If anything is likely to kill or significantly change the RV industry I think it is probably the cost of fuel. If gas/diesel doubles in price I suspect that the RV industry will take a significant hit. Short of that I think it will continue to expand.
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:26 AM   #5
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It seems Greg Gerber isn’t a journalist that writes for the “RV Daily Report,” a publication I’ve never heard of, but he is the founder/owner of the publication. Again, one I’d say most of us have never seen or heard of before.

Though I did see he sold the publication last year because he was burned out and the new owners hired a new editor to take the publication in a “more positive direction.” Those articles were written 2-years ago, and obviously in his "burned out" period. He sold the website exactly one year after penning those articles.
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:59 AM   #6
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Personally I have gotten tired of all of the doomsday predictions I see almost every day, and this seems like just one more example of that. I have continued to read the posts but so far have seen nothing that is very convincing. RVs have problems. Sure. I know that. Dealers could do a better job servicing RVs. Well, that is not exactly surprising news. RV manufacturers could do a better job when building them. Yes, that is true.

The pleasure I get when traveling and camping far outweighs any of the issues that I have come across or I would not still be RVing.
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:00 AM   #7
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AJMike....Ditto! All industry goes through boom and bust cycles. The RV Industry had its "bust" in 2006-08 and now it is booming again. With the RV Industry growth comes some pain. We consumers need to be diligent about pointing the problems out to the dealers and manufacturers.
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:14 PM   #8
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There are two prominent things I'm seeing on the internet in general - not so much on this site - is shallow thinking and posts that seem intended just to stir the [moderator edit] pot. There seems almost no end to trolls and people who just can't think for themselves and cheerfully allow someone else to do it for them. Its up to us individually to make ourselves "smarter than the average bear" to prevent getting sucked in by hype and fakery, and I'll admit sometimes its difficult to tell what's legit and what's not. By all appearances, the moderators on this site do a great job of keeping it well on track - give yourselves a hand!!!
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Old 12-08-2018, 03:34 PM   #9
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I think what this article writer is bemoaning, is what we all kind of feel to one degree or another. We all wish that the economics of manufacturing, selling, and servicing RVs was more like the auto business. I think we all kind of expect that it's a vehicle and they should be the same... or at least similar.

But that's not realistic and to a large extent a problem of perception on our part. Does the industry play a roll in that misconception? I think so. We see all the time that new RVers are SHOCKED that there are problems with their new RVs and that they have trouble getting warranty service or any service done quickly and correctly.

I do think the sales process is - unfortunately - similar to the auto business. Dealers perform all matter of tricks and "new math" to sell autos and RVs. It's buyer beware.

There are plenty of other problems with RVing ranging from low fuel mileage/high fuel costs, crowded campgrounds, inferior campgrounds, and the list goes on.

Being human, we want ALL of these problems fixed and fixed now. Maybe, over time, a few of them will be, or more likely, we'll adjust to the world as it is and either choose to live with the issues or abandon the lifestyle/hobby once and for all. I think most of us choose to adjust.
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:14 PM   #10
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All good points. It does seem the RV industry can do better. Several bloggers have been to Europe lately and they seem ahead of us in design and reliability! Yikes! Part of this may be that RVers tended to be retirement age (like me!). With that starting to change and many younger families entering the market, we may see some changes. Winnebago, for one, has been trying to simplify (fewer parts) their RV’s to reduce cost and make them more reliable. While I am not thrilled with some of the changes, I realize I’m not necessarily their target customer, and still welcome the changes.

Also, I guess i’m one of the few who had read the original articles from Gerber. He gathers industry news and only recently started including news for consumers. The articles created good discussion in the industry. While he’s a bit of a curmudgeon, it’s good to have discussion on the future of the industry. By the way, he recently bought back the publication, so we may expect to hear more from him.
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Old 12-09-2018, 04:22 AM   #11
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My thought on the articles are while I do not feel the industry is in crisis to the point of tanking as the author indicated there are some huge issues with the business model and we the consumers are getting the raw end of the deal. The industry is basically monopolized by a few big players and they can get away with putting out a sub-par product because they have the clout to do it. We as consumers will have to demand better products and service or we will never see a change.



No one should have to have a brand new rig back to the dealer 3-4 times for issues in the first year. Can their be exceptions, sure, but this seems to be the norm and even worse an acceptable practice by manufacturer and dealer with the consumer shouldered with the burden of time, expense and sometimes the battle to make things right.



The change needs to start at the factory, with putting out a product that is sound to begin with. If the price needs to increase 10%-15% so be it, I'd rather pay for a quality product then deal with the hassle of a sub-par product. The model is broken, and in this I agree with the author of the articles.
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Old 12-16-2018, 04:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fasttimes View Post


Something needs to change in my opinion, it's out of control.

a. whining about QC with man-made objects has been a popular sport for many years,

b. the comments you cite about RVs could have been made 10, 20, or 40 years ago; it is the nature of limited production items to not be perfect every time,

c. as consumers want more and more whiz-bang things in their coaches, they have also dumbed down to the point that they can't/won't even try to fix something or adjust something. That's on our society, not the industry.

d. as the writer shows, complaining takes virtually no talent in order to do it well.
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Old 12-16-2018, 04:38 PM   #13
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Angry Sad state of the RV Industry

I completely agree with the original author of the articles. I would re-label the
articles: Sad State and disaster of the coming demise of the RV industry.
Imagine: If the RV industry produced a product even close to the quality of Toyota, Honda and other reputable auto/truck manufactures. The demand would be higher, expectations of the resorts and camping would be higher, resale value would be higher, and it may become a sustainable industry.
The dealer follow-up industry are mostly crooks that simply drain your wallet and increase your stress levels. Seems like there is always another appointment you have to beg for and pay to the moon. One can never TRUST any part of the industry for quality. Employee turnover is off the charts and they hire the lowest level of animal available for assembly known to mankind. The owners are sell and run specialists: here today gone tomorrow. Most of the resorts have become at least 1/2 full time rust bucket housing for the destitute and crime is rampant. Camps are dirty and the resort owners have the personality of a teenage ZiT.

Now what part of acceptable is it you say?
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Old 12-16-2018, 04:38 PM   #14
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If a motor home hasn’t had trouble getting good service/ or maybe getting any service. I belve he/she has to be doing their own work, or doesn’t live any where close to me in Savannah Ga. I have traveled over 200 miles and it has been a nothing but just poor service. I am making a month stay in February in south Florida . Then I am selling my MH. I have been in the RVing for 42 years . Just tired of the poor workmanship in the building the Motor Homes and the unprofessional in the Repair. To those of you say you haven’t had problems in getting proper repair is just hard for me to believe. The last 10-15 years has been a terrific down fall in quality building and repair of most RVs . It is so disappointing.!!!��
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:01 PM   #15
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I can personally attest to the unacceptability of poor quality control in the RV industry. I had countless issues with my brand new coach issues that should have been caught by the manufacturer or dealer before I ever got to see the unit.

Just to list a few: Generator did not operate properly (surging). It took Onan a week to correct the problem.; Black water tank flush system vacuum brake (check valve) installed backwards and wouldn't accept water; Gray water tank pump switch was disconnected and didn't work; Windshield leaked water while driving in the rain (class C Ford E450) where water doesn't normally reach the windshield; roof leaked at several locations where the nose piece joined the roof panel (replaced the whole joint seal to find about half of the screws connecting the panels were stripped, very disconcerting); rear tail lights leaked water and rotted the electrical connectors (again most of the screws holding the covers on were stripped); wrong sized screws installed (no excuse for this one) on the pantry shelf rails that stripped out over time; shower poorly installed with crooked screws so several caps would not stay on and cracked shower panel; bad power connection to the bathroom light switch which caused light flickering; undermount galley sink poorly designed mounting and leaks water to the cabinet below; Entrance door installed crooked and rubbed jam; bedroom escape window installed crooked. These are just the things that come to mind right now. Thinking about it I'm sure I could come up with a dozen more.

So yes, the industry does have more than its share of QC issues. Does that spell doom? I don't know, but it sure isn't helping it out any.
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:13 PM   #16
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I may have speculated this on another thread, but it seems appropriate to repeat it here. I have no doubt at that all RV manufacturers have quality control programs, but it seems their effectiveness is sometimes questionable. A lot of the complaints I'm seeing here and elsewhere seem to be in hidden or not readily accessible locations. I'm wondering if QC at various points on the actual assembly lines is viewed as a time-wasting nuisance by time managers and line workers, and thus the QC is performed as the unit rolls off the end of the line. By that time so many components and systems are pretty much hidden and not readily accessible by QC people.

If I ran an assembly plant, I'd want QC involved on the line where known problems tend to occur as well as comprehensive systems checks at roll off. It might be a bit more expensive to produce the units, but I think it would be very much worth the effort by sending out high quality units resulting in fewer customer complaints.

Other opinions?
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Old 12-17-2018, 10:45 AM   #17
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I have got a group question. What is the best made most reliable RV out there?
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:10 AM   #18
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Absolutely nothing new. The industry produced junk 20 years ago. Nothing seems to change. Yet I still continue to buy and enjoy
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by MIDMONDN View Post
I have got a group question. What is the best made most reliable RV out there?
It is an interesting question, but I don't know if there are any public and professional studies on the subject. Without something objective like that, responses are likely to be subjective and thus, while accurate, not representative of the industry as a whole. People complain about problems, they rarely publish comments about how well something is running.

Still I am interested in seeing responses. And, along with that, are Class As better than Class Bs, or Class Cs. Or are trailers generally more problem-free than motorhomes? How about fifth wheels? Are higher prices RVs more problem-free than less expensive ones? Or are issues pretty much homogenized throughout the offerings?
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Old 12-17-2018, 04:23 PM   #20
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Quality of RV's

I find it ironic that we all want our products to be made in America for obvious reasons, Quality being a big one, and RV's are made in America.

Our current RV is a 2007 Winnebago Voyage and as far as RV's go has been fairly decent.

I always purchase Toyotas simply because they cause me zero grief and do what a vehicle is supposed to. One day my coworkers were giving me a bad time about not buying American and I pointed out that the Winnebago was made in America and cost 3 times more than my Toyota. They did not have much to say after that.

It is sad that Made in America apparently does not mean what it used to, or does it? I can't help but remember back when all of the parking lots had big oil stains where the Fords, Chevys, and Dodges parked, then came cars made in Japan that did not leak oil. Guess what the American big 3 were forced to make vehicles that did not leak oil. It seems to me that we are very capable of making great products in this country but fail to do so unless the competition forces us to. What incentive do RV manufacturers have to improve quality? Apparently we will continue to buy them no matter how poorly they are thrown together.
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